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De Beers undercuts the man made diamond price

bmfang

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Interesting thoughts all ‘round (with the exception of the military state posts that escalated really quickly). This is what I get for leaving this thread for a couple of weeks...lol

Given i’m a watch guy, I see De Beers working in a similar manner as Swatch Group (SG) does with watches with their new strategy re: MMD. Just like SG has high end covered with brands like Breguet, Harry Winston, Rado, etc (equiv to natural stones), they also cover the low-mid range of the market with Tissot, Mido and Swatch (equiv of MMD).

All of the brands produce the exact same thing: a timepiece that is to tell the time. But what really counts is how much the consumer wishes to indulge on a high end timepiece or one at the more affordable end of it.

My own current thinking on watches is that I’d prefer something more affordable and low maintenance than my mechanicals [and I’m already dreading the servicing costs on the mechanical watches I have in rotation now]. To the point where I’m considering a route that many watch geeks would consider as anathema: a quartz timepiece (in particular, a solar powered digital display quartz, e.g. a Casio G-Shock).

Same things about diamonds, if i’m in the market for something better than ultra cheap costume jewellery with the same optical properties as diamonds. Why not MMD?

Of course there will be some that will Pooh-Pooh the thought that a quartz Swatch is in the same league as a Breguet with a tourbillon, but unless you are a real snob about it, it’s very difficult to argue that both timepieces are not fit for purpose: that is, to tell time. It’s the same equivocation in my mind: gem grade diamonds are there to provide bling.

As a student of horology and gemmology, it can be very easy to go down the rabbit hole of why one is more superior than the other. But to me at least, an appreciation of both sides of the story is warranted.

I hesitate to equate fake/counterfeit/replica watches with CZ or Moissanite (or silicon carbide) in my analogy however because those three gems are distinct, each with their own pros and cons. Provided that a vendor doesn’t go down the road of fraudulently advertising them as MMDs, they are also fit for the purposes of bling (they will just look different optically as they reflect light).

Fake/replica/counterfeit watches are in another class of douchebaggery in my books. Why wear a fake Rolex Datejust when one can wear a vintage Omega Geneve instead? Or at the other extreme, a real Timex or Casio G-Shock?!? Or hell, even a “real” fashion watch (insert name of brand like Michael Kors, Tommy Hilfiger, Hugo Boss, Armani Exchange, Fossil or even [God forbid], a Daniel Wellington).
 

pearaffair

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Interesting thoughts all ‘round (with the exception of the military state posts that escalated really quickly). This is what I get for leaving this thread for a couple of weeks...lol

Given i’m a watch guy, I see De Beers working in a similar manner as Swatch Group (SG) does with watches with their new strategy re: MMD. Just like SG has high end covered with brands like Breguet, Harry Winston, Rado, etc (equiv to natural stones), they also cover the low-mid range of the market with Tissot, Mido and Swatch (equiv of MMD).

All of the brands produce the exact same thing: a timepiece that is to tell the time. But what really counts is how much the consumer wishes to indulge on a high end timepiece or one at the more affordable end of it.

My own current thinking on watches is that I’d prefer something more affordable and low maintenance than my mechanicals [and I’m already dreading the servicing costs on the mechanical watches I have in rotation now]. To the point where I’m considering a route that many watch geeks would consider as anathema: a quartz timepiece (in particular, a solar powered digital display quartz, e.g. a Casio G-Shock).

Same things about diamonds, if i’m in the market for something better than ultra cheap costume jewellery with the same optical properties as diamonds. Why not MMD?

Of course there will be some that will Pooh-Pooh the thought that a quartz Swatch is in the same league as a Breguet with a tourbillon, but unless you are a real snob about it, it’s very difficult to argue that both timepieces are not fit for purpose: that is, to tell time. It’s the same equivocation in my mind: gem grade diamonds are there to provide bling.

As a student of horology and gemmology, it can be very easy to go down the rabbit hole of why one is more superior than the other. But to me at least, an appreciation of both sides of the story is warranted.

I hesitate to equate fake/counterfeit/replica watches with CZ or Moissanite (or silicon carbide) in my analogy however because those three gems are distinct, each with their own pros and cons. Provided that a vendor doesn’t go down the road of fraudulently advertising them as MMDs, they are also fit for the purposes of bling (they will just look different optically as they reflect light).

Fake/replica/counterfeit watches are in another class of douchebaggery in my books. Why wear a fake Rolex Datejust when one can wear a vintage Omega Geneve instead? Or at the other extreme, a real Timex or Casio G-Shock?!? Or hell, even a “real” fashion watch (insert name of brand like Michael Kors, Tommy Hilfiger, Hugo Boss, Armani Exchange, Fossil or even [God forbid], a Daniel Wellington).

I don’t want to totally hijack, but where would you suggest looking for a vintage omega? :D
 

bmfang

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I don’t want to totally hijack, but where would you suggest looking for a vintage omega? :D

Where I am, we have dedicated vintage watch shops. So you could see if there are any where you live. Usually, the prices are a little higher, but they have usually had a service and buff up prior to sale so you are paying for stuff that you would very likely have to do if you bought elsewhere.

Alternatively, you may be able to find them at antique shops.

The last option is eBay, but you have to be aware that you could really be buying blind. I always prefer buying vintage Omegas from the era when they still were a real in house manufacture (particularly from the 1940s-1970s).

Now they are a half in house manufacture given most of the calibers they make have an origination in base ETA movements (usually a 2892) modified to fit the co-axial escapements into them (and sometimes double barrels).
 

pearaffair

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Thanks! And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

I’m imagining a bedazzled jean jacket... bedazzled with diamonds! LOL. Like 100 years from now when manmade diamonds are CHEAP.
 

jen2mc

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I was just talking to a friend who’s looking at buying a diamond pendant. I was telling her about Lightbox (not suggesting she get one, just giving her the info) and she was super excited and is going to wait to get one of them. She’s not in PS and not into the stats of stones, etc— just likes sparkles. She never even knew MMD were a thing. She could easily afford either option. I wonder how many people will make this same choice.
 
M

MTHealthyLiving

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Thanks! And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

I’m imagining a bedazzled jean jacket... bedazzled with diamonds! LOL. Like 100 years from now when manmade diamonds are CHEAP.

I don’t think it will take 100 years for MMD to become cheap.
With DeBeers strategy, I give it ten years tops.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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GIA have lodged a new patent related to an instrument that seems to me to be relatively inexpensive to manufacture given the low wattage and visible and near visible Ultra Violet. (I have been saying for a long time (also Michael Cawing is wrong) that UV reaction occurs most strongly at 395A and not at the 365 we have used for a century based on the available lamps).
This could be very interesting:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2018/0172599.html
 

OoohShiny

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GIA have lodged a new patent related to an instrument that seems to me to be relatively inexpensive to manufacture given the low wattage and visible and near visible Ultra Violet. (I have been saying for a long time (also Michael Cawing is wrong) that UV reaction occurs most strongly at 395A and not at the 365 we have used for a century based on the available lamps).
This could be very interesting:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2018/0172599.html
Interesting!

I see they state "Synthetic diamonds and diamond simulants can be detected with 100% accuracy." - that is quite a claim!
 

icy_jade

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I was just talking to a friend who’s looking at buying a diamond pendant. I was telling her about Lightbox (not suggesting she get one, just giving her the info) and she was super excited and is going to wait to get one of them. She’s not in PS and not into the stats of stones, etc— just likes sparkles. She never even knew MMD were a thing. She could easily afford either option. I wonder how many people will make this same choice.

Lots.

I spoke to some people and a few are adamant that they only want mined diamonds but most are pretty excited at the thought of cheaper sparkle once they realize that we are talking about chemically identical stuff.

Personally I’m also keen to buy “type IIa” mmds since I can’t (or am unwilling to pay so much) for a real/natural type IIa diamond.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Interesting!

I see they state "Synthetic diamonds and diamond simulants can be detected with 100% accuracy." - that is quite a claim!
Based on "REFER". This tool is part of a process. The second part if the stone is Type II is to send or pull it out of the setting and send to gIA or a lab with more serious equipment. Although in most cases the GemeTrix would suffice for better trained gemologists (like my staff) http://www.gemetrix.com.au/melee.html
But having now had a sleep and looked more at the patent this is the very same device I tested at the JCK show. However the instructions there were not as explicit as in the patent.
It is unusual that the patent was not lodged prior to the demonstration and start of sales. I bet none have been shipped prior to this lodging as reverse engineering would have made copying dead easy.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Oh Hell!
We are in Portland and missed the celeb's from De Beers turning sods!

"De Beers' factory will be in the Gresham Vista Business Park, adjacent to the ON Semiconductor plant at Northeast Glisan Street and Northeast 223rd Avenue. The Port of Portland bought the property in 2011 to encourage industrial development.

The factory is in an enterprise zone, meaning at least some of De Beers' investment will be exempt from the local property taxes other businesses pay."
We went to a supermarket not more than a mile away!!!!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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M

MTHealthyLiving

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I posted this in it's own thread, but worth placing here too:
https://www.diamonds.net/news/NewsItem.aspx?tc_dailyemail=1&ArticleID=62506

Martin Rapaport gives an excellent quick summary of why De Beers lost the boggyman powers. Then goes on to discuss his take on De Beers and synthetics

In his article Martin asks:
“Do you want it real or do you want it big?”
Both.
But I would take small over fake any day.
The MMDs can only (at this time) be produced at 2 carats and smaller because they take so long to grow.
So there will be no market in MMD for those that want significant size.
If they were to offer MMD in all carat sizes, then they’d be slitting their own throats.
DeBeers knows exactly what they are doing.
 

OoohShiny

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In his article Martin asks:
“Do you want it real or do you want it big?”
Both.
But I would take small over fake any day.
The MMDs can only (at this time) be produced at 2 carats and smaller because they take so long to grow.
So there will be no market in MMD for those that want significant size.

If they were to offer MMD in all carat sizes, then they’d be slitting their own throats.
DeBeers knows exactly what they are doing.

2ct+ sizes are already being worked on ;-)

https://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/s...-synthetic-diamonds-greater-than-three-carats
 

diagem

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I remember some company claimed selling a 10 carat plus synthetic Asscher cut a couple of years ago at the Vegas shows.

Fresh from GIA https://www.diamonds.net/News/NewsItem.aspx?ArticleID=62508&ArticleTitle=GIA+Grades+%e2%80%98Largest%e2%80%99+Lab-Grown+Pink+

And I choose this phrase as “the” GIA quotation “The combination of size, color and clarity make this the most remarkable CVD synthetic diamond the GIA has tested so far,”

Strong words from the world's foremost authority in gemology
 

OoohShiny

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I remember some company claimed selling a 10 carat plus synthetic Asscher cut a couple of years ago at the Vegas shows.

Fresh from GIA https://www.diamonds.net/News/NewsItem.aspx?ArticleID=62508&ArticleTitle=GIA+Grades+%e2%80%98Largest%e2%80%99+Lab-Grown+Pink+

And I choose this phrase as “the” GIA quotation “The combination of size, color and clarity make this the most remarkable CVD synthetic diamond the GIA has tested so far,”

Strong words from the world's foremost authority in gemology
Oooh, that is not small!

Thanks for the link! :))

It amuses me slightly that it's been cut for weight (to hit the 5ct mark) not beauty, despite being one of those 'cheap' MMDs that is apparently unworthy of grading, according to De Beers :lol: lol
 

diagem

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Oooh, that is not small!

Thanks for the link! :))

It amuses me slightly that it's been cut for weight (to hit the 5ct mark) not beauty, despite being one of those 'cheap' MMDs that is apparently unworthy of grading, according to De Beers :lol: lol

Some more interesting reading on this subject:

https://www.nationaljeweler.com/blog/6737-this-chicago-diamond-dealer-has-2-big-lab-grown-stones

Fay also owns a rectangular cushion modified brilliant lab-grown diamond that is 15.32 carats and, he says, is the largest lab-grown diamond in the world.
 

Johnbt

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www.bigdiamondsusa.com/16ctwcucutla.html

"ONE AND ONLY!! LARGEST LAB GROWN DIAMOND IN THE WORLD!!!"

"Cushion Cut Lab Grown Diamond Ring
Total Diamond Weight: 16.14 Carats
Center Diamond Shape: Cushion Cut
Center Diamond Weight: 15.32 Carats (15.37 x 14.02 x 9.35 mm)
Color: G
Clarity: SI2
Side Accent Diamonds: 0.82 ctw
"


Okay, who is going to step up and buy this ring? :wavey: Not me. Not today. Not my style. John

"Retail Value $250,000.00
Our Price $155,000.00 YOU SAVE 38%"

And FREE SHIPPING. There's a video.
 

HDer

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Just got this e-mail from lightbox. Looks like they wanted to be extra clear that yes, they will be selling one carat white diamonds for 800 (or really 900 or 1000). Guess at least until they sell out.

Screen Shot 2018-07-20 at 11.12.05 AM.png
 

Johnbt

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"A one carat pink solitaire costs $800.
A one carat blue costs $800.
And a one carat white costs - you've guessed it - $800."

WWED?

What would Elvis do?
elvis-presley.jpg
That's right. Get some of each !!!! Bunches !!!!
 

AprilBaby

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Paul-Antwerp

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Last Friday, July 20th, De Beers' held what they called a town-hall-session in the Antwerp Diamond Bourse, where they presented their perspective on synthetic diamonds and the position of their own Lightbox-initiative in this.

At first, they went to great lengths, underlining their long-term belief and commitment to the natural diamond industry, clearly pointing out that their current investment in Lightbox is minute in comparison to their investments in natural diamonds.

However, I found certain details about Lightbox very interesting.
- They confirmed that in colors, one should expect mainly blues and pinks, not that many whites.
- As for pricing, they actually consider total carat weight of a jewel. One could have a center-stone of 0.50 Ct., and a number of melee-stones, and the total will be priced 800 per carat. In other words, also the melee diamonds lower than 0.20 Ct. will be priced 800 $/Ct.
- Initial sales will be through e-commerce, as they will have insufficient production for other channels, until finalization of their new production-plant in Oregon (2020).
- Currently, they have no plans for further expansion after this. That will depend upon how the market reacts. When they will need further expansion, they foresee a year for planning and two years for building extra production-facilities.

The presentation came also with some contradictions:

First, was about the size of the market of synthetic diamonds:
- Initially, they estimated current production of synthetic diamonds at about 3% of natural diamonds, about 5 million carats of rough.
- Later on, they said that there are only between 100,000 and 200,000 carats of synthetic diamonds in the market,
- Immediately followed by 'But you can find them with almost every US retailer.'

Another contradiction:
- Synthetic diamonds are technology based, and because of increased technology and production-efficiency, pricing will continuously go down. As such, it can in no way be compared to a natural diamond.
- When clarifying their future strategies however, they said, with the production-facility we are building now, we can produce 500,000 carats of rough per year. As we have no plans yet for further expansion, we will continue to produce 500,000 carats only, until we made new investment decisions.

Just thought you liked me sharing this extra info.

Live long,
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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OoohShiny

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innerkitten

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I am a consumer and I also make silver and gemstone jewelry for myself and friends. I like the idea of being able to use or wear a durable diamond that isn't mined but created in a lab and at half the price. It opens up so many possibilities. I also like the way Lightbox ( Debeers ) is presenting it with fun designs and colors. Change happens.
 

kmoro

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To me, the biggest put-offs for lab diamonds are:

1. They are not natural diamonds (lol). I have a mind-issue with that ... am fascinated by the miraculous history of a natural diamond and love how no two are the same.

2. CUT. Although some can now at least get GiA grading, and I think some might have a good cut, but from what I have observed, this seems to be the weakest part. Perhaps master cutters are few and retained by the natural diamond market. I’m sure that, if I was a master cutter, I would prefer to put my efforts into natural diamonds. Anyway, I have yet to see a MMD with a super ideal cut.
 
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