Cut quality

[Just_Looking]

First, thank you to everyone who contributes to this site. It is so helpful to get some advice from those in the know.

From reading posts on the site it is clear to me that there is a point where clarity and color ceases to be noticeable on diamonds during "normal" conditions (i.e. walking around the mall, showing the ring to friends, etc.) If the diamond is not noticeably yellow and is "eye clear" then anything beyond that is nice, but does not make a huge difference and may not be worth the money (depending upon your budget).

Is there a point where this occurs with cuts as well? How noticeable is the difference between and H&A diamond and something that may not be perfect but is an above average cut?

 

[Kaleigh]

First of all you want a stone that is well cut. Once you have that then you can sacrifice a bit on color and clarity. If I were you read the tutorials on here on cut. That will help a lot. Many people love an H color stone with an SI 1-2 clarity. You will want to make sure it's eye clean. Hope that helps,

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/12/2006 12:44:38 AM
Author:Just_Looking


Is there a point where this occurs with cuts as well? How noticeable is the difference between and H&A diamond and something that may not be perfect but is an above average cut?

go to a retail store that carries branded stones like HoF,8*,LK , also ask the sales person to show you some "non ideal cuts" so you can compare side by side.

 

[Waited2Long]

Tricky question to answer. Are you measuring cut by its grade on the certificate? Or the name brand of the cut? It boils down to the eye of the beholder. I think a lot of people couldn''t tell an H&A from a Costco. I find our ACA stone nicer than the typical mall store offering but I probably couldn''t tell if it was a better cut than an Expert Selection.

 

[plg_cp]

Date: 2/12/2006 2:42:25 AM
Author: Waited2Long
I think a lot of people couldn''t tell an H&A from a Costco.

Why can''t a diamond from Costco exhibit H&A patterning?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You make a very good point Just looking.

I personally believe a diamond that has a great ideal-scope pattern is all that is required.

I understand purists who like the idea of perfect perfet H&A''s symmetry; but the point is well passed by then from a visual acuity point of view.

And I believe Costco does have IGI certified H&A''s - these may not pass the purists tests - but again - I doubt they could tell the difference with their eyes in a pepsi test.

Just 1 thing though - H&A''s can sometimes be a little deep and leaky for my preference.

 

[strmrdr]

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/how-much-does-h-a-matter.40075/

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 2/12/2006 5:05:17 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
You make a very good point Just looking.

I personally believe a diamond that has a great ideal-scope pattern is all that is required.

I understand purists who like the idea of perfect perfet H&A''s symmetry; but the point is well passed by then from a visual acuity point of view.

And I believe Costco does have IGI certified H&A''s - these may not pass the purists tests - but again - I doubt they could tell the difference with their eyes in a pepsi test.

Just 1 thing though - H&A''s can sometimes be a little deep and leaky for my preference.

Garry, so the real key is checking a potential diamond with the idealscope? Are there examples anywhere of what desirable idealscope pictures should look like for non-H&A stones? I don''t particularly care about H&A, but I would like to find a stone that is bright, white, and sparkly from edge to edge with no dead spots. Do only ideal cut diamonds get a good idealscope picture or can good premium cut stones? Will the least expensive idealscope do the job? Thanks!

Janis

 

[oldminer]

An Ideal-Scope does a very good job of finding a brilliant diamond. In nearly every case, a diamond that looks fine under the I-S will actually look very beautiful. I suppose there must be exceptions, but I have yet to find one.

On the hother hand, there are certain diamonds with very special and distinct cutting that the Ideal-Scope does not detect as being special. Those diamonds are usually a premium price and something for purists who will pay the extra price. These are extra pretty in some people''s eyes and not better to other folks. That''s for you to decide. We have tools to discern higher performance than what the eye can see, but not everyone cares.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/12/2006 2:13:10 PM
Author: oldminer


On the hother hand, there are certain diamonds with very special and distinct cutting that the Ideal-Scope does not detect as being special.

The slightly deeper ''fiery'' type?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/12/2006 8:24:56 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006



Garry, so the real key is checking a potential diamond with the idealscope?

Garry came up with the Iscope. So... he must think it is a good tool.
There are many other fans of reflector tools (either IS or - about the same rose by a few other names

) around this forum and elsewhere. So by no means I would call this choice ''biased''.


Are there examples anywhere of what desirable idealscope pictures should look like for non-H&A stones?

There''s a priceless reference chart just for that at www.ideal-scope.com


I don''t particularly care about H&A, but I would like to find a stone that is bright, white, and sparkly from edge to edge with no dead spots.

Cool. There are a few things about this - one, that the nicest & brightest diamonds may have some pinpoint white dots in (clear) IS images. And also, there was some amount of discussion about where relatively less intense red/pink under such a reflector tool may not be a bad thing. There is a chart somewhere in Garry''s older posts and on the OctoNus website (I think). Anyway, I think that point is well covered by the reference chart mentioned above. meaning - if you find a ''perfect'' arrow pattern on edge-to-edge red, great, but some slight departure from that do no mean diminished quality.

It may be that I make things sound more complicated than they are. IMO, the instructions at IdealSCope.com, the little video on Pricescope''s Video gallery showing IS in action and the video tutorial at Whiteflash about the same issues, should cover the ground nicely. Half an hour or so... as long as you do not feel passionate about second-guessing yourself

This process doesn''t have to become its own reward (well, it looks like that for me, but that adds up to an unusual hobby by now

).



Do only ideal cut diamonds get a good idealscope picture or can good premium cut stones? Will the least expensive idealscope do the job? Thanks!

There are some many definitions of ''ideal'' and ''premium'' as there are sellers making the am on the go. It isn''t worth paying too much notice to that, unless the seller defines their cut grades in relatively precise technical terms (like... AGS does, of some of the cut-obsessed sellers around this place

).

Hope some of this helps.

My 2 (inexpert) cents.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/12/2006 12:44:38 AM
Author:Just_Looking

Is there a point where this occurs with cuts as well? How noticeable is the difference between and H&A diamond and something that may not be perfect but is an above average cut?

Here is my take on this. When I graduated from the GIA in residence in 1975 I was determined to sell only Ideal cuts as that was what I loved. Over a period of a couple of years I found that some ideal cuts did not perform as well as some non ideals, especially those in the 60/60 range (60% table, 60% depth) but that some ideals just blew everything else away. Of course at the time I did not have the time nor the experience to figure out why, and there were none of the wonderful tools that we have now thanks to the like of EightStar, Gary Holloway, Old Miner, Adamas Gems, and of course the incredible transparent and open source work of the AGS versus the secretive, here it is, take it and like it, work of the GIA. (Oops, my obvious bias for peer reviewed science is showing, sorry.)

Mind you, this was well before the advent of EightStar which was itself about 4 years prior to the advent of H&A cutting.

I soon learned that the American public did not necessarily agree with me about my choice of stone cutting and most often would not pay the premium for ideal cuts, at that time a much higher premium than we have today. I learned to buy diamonds that are more in what we often refer to as the premium cuts, such as the aformentioned 60/60 that really performed well but that cost less.

This worked very well for me for many years, then a funny thing happened.

EightStar was developed in Japan and four years later the H&A cuts. I actually turned down EightStars the first time I was offered them because of my earlier experience with paying "too much" for ideal cuts that were hard to sell in Idaho. I did share with Richard von Sternberg a delightful lunch and some ideas about people he could contact in the Northwest and many years later I did have the opportunity to become an EightStar dealer. I have never been sorry as you really can see a difference and they are stunning diamonds, although there is that little issue of the premium...

That''s not the funny thing though, that is what happened to the economy of Japan and how it affected the diamond business in the United
States. The Japanese market had become probably the biggest market for the Hearts and Arrows cut diamonds, in fact that is a trademarked name in Japan and not the generic name it is here. Several diamond cutters in Antwerp started to produce exclusively for this market. Then the economy in Japan went South, way South. Many large jewelers declared bankruptcy because of their guaranteed buyback policies when hoards of desperate people took their diamonds back to the stores where they were purchased and the market for H&A stones dried up quickly in Japan. Cutters in Antwerp had a PROBLEM. They had been used to selling these diamonds for a nice large premium in Japan which made them too expensive for most American diamond dealers and retailers to want to deal with. Now they had inventories on hand that were not selling.

The head of what is now Hearts on Fire saw a few of these on a trip to Antwerp when he was the head of a company that I believe was called Dia Star (I may be confused about the exact name, I am a geezer and my memory is like swiss cheese for details sometimes...)

He saw the stunningness of them and brought them to this country and sold the sizzle for a healthy premium with the help of a marketing guru by the name of Jay Abraham. (Again, I reserve the right to be somewhat confused, but this is my recollection of things and I think I am fairly accurate but please do not turn me in as a reference in the bibliography of your book reports.). This worked so well that they are still getting a healthy premium and have millions of dollars of other people''s money to finance the marketing with.

Other cutters saw that they might now have a new outlet for their overstocked H&A type cut diamonds and started showing them to American buyers for a greatly reduced premium than what they were charging the Japanese who were no longer in the market for many of these stones and finally more than 20 years after I started selling jewelry it was possible for me to sell not only ideal cut diamonds in this country but really super duper ideal cut diamonds. The difference in appearance was in fact quite noticeable to even the most novice diamond buyer after about ten minutes of education so that selling them at the lower premium became at first quite easy and now for me, it is almost impossible for me to sell the non H&A cut diamonds that used to be my bread and butter.

I guess I should not say it is a funny thing, as it really was quite trajic for the dealers in Japan, but it was an unintended side effect of their plummeting economy that all of a sudden we went from a huge premium for ideal cuts (20% or more) to a small premium of approximately 15% for super ideal cuts.

So, here is my opinion of your questions.

Average cut diamonds can be pretty, but they are not at all what they should be and that is sad.

Well cut to premium cut diamonds, can be very very beautiful BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They will always lack a certain something to the ideal cuts, especially the super ideal cuts that constitute the true H&A cuts and the Eightstar diamonds. These diamonds have a certain something to them that renders the average diamond unsuitable to that person who has taken the time to appreciate the minute differences that make H&A and EightStar diamonds special.

That having been said, some premium cut diamonds are so beautiful that it will take close up side by side comparrison to tell if it is not really a super ideal cut diamond, and some super ideal cut diamonds, especially before AGS ruled out some of the peripherally qualified "super ideals" such as the steep deeps do not perform as well as some premium cut diamonds. That is one of my beefs with GIA''s new system, I believe that it penalizes some stones that should be rewarded and it rewards some stones that should be castigated.

In the long run, and I apologize for taking so long to get here, but you really will have to use your eyes. Look at the diamond in the store, in the hall, step into a dark corner and allow it to only catch the light coming over your shoulders, out of doors, under the shade of a broad leaved tree if possible, but certainly in the shade and not so much in the sun, even a dog can hurt your eyes in direct sunlight.

I recommend you go premium at the lowest and with all the vendors of the "super ideals" that are available now (several hundred cutters of so called H&A diamonds and many actual cutters of H&A diamonds) you should be able to find the level of cut that makes your heart happy. Your heart will have to speak with their representatives, the eyes, to know for sure, you can not make this choice on paper alone.

Wink

 

[diamondseeker2006]

These have all been very interesting and informative replies!

Valeria, there''s one thing I am stil confused about, though. When I looked at the sample IS pictures, the non-H&A stones still looked like H&A to me! I am assuming they were intended to be H&A but maybe didn''t make the grade? Or are all diamonds cut in that pattern now (I didn''t think that was true)?

 

[Just_Looking]

Everyone... Thanks so much for replying. I think I have a better idea of what to look for. I have an IS and I''ll put it to good use

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/12/2006 6:01:38 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
These have all been very interesting and informative replies!

Valeria, there''s one thing I am stil confused about, though. When I looked at the sample IS pictures, the non-H&A stones still looked like H&A to me! I am assuming they were intended to be H&A but maybe didn''t make the grade? Or are all diamonds cut in that pattern now (I didn''t think that was true)?

I would say that about 1/2 the diamonds with really nice ideal-scope images do not neccisarily have perfect hearts - but in those cases I have never found anyone who can consistantly pick the difference in any type of lighting.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/12/2006 6:01:38 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Valeria, there''s one thing I am still confused about, though. When I looked at the sample IS pictures, the non-H&A stones still looked like H&A to me!

I am assuming they were intended to be H&A but maybe didn''t make the grade? Or are all diamonds cut in that pattern now (I didn''t think that was true)?

I am not too sure what to say...

For once, the IS only sees the arrow pattern on the face of diamonds and not the hearts on the back. The IS is not a tool to ID H&A. An orderly pattern of black ''figures'' on the face of the stones is indication of a high degree of optical symmetry but #1 if there are perfect arrows there this doesn''t mean there will also be hearts (so you get a neat IS look, but the stone is not H&A), and #2 you could get some other sort of nice, orderly pattern on the diamond that is not arrows.

The arrows form ''easier'' than the harts (i.e. with less symmetry required and over a wider range of proportions).

So... it doesn''t have to be that those diamonds were ''missed H&A'' - they are just diamonds with great optical symmetry.


It looks like the second part of your question reads: " why so many examples with arrows then". I am not sure I know this part. For once, I wonder if there could have been IS reference examples of non-arrow patterns or no pattern at all and nice light return.

This looks like a question for Garry. I would think you could use the e-mail contact on IdealScope.com to ask if he doesn''t look on this thread anymore.


Hope I didn''t make this even more confusing. My answers are mostly ''secondary source'' from what I''ve read and seen... Someone truly working on these things would very likely have a better explanation.