Cut Grade Question

[Stive85]

Hi everyone,

I just had a quick question regarding GIA's cut grading system. I have taken in a diamond I purchased a while back and wanted it set for a mothers day pendant.

Took it to a jeweller whom I trust (although I prefer to buy online) to have it set. He does excellent work and this was the reason for it. I am still learning cut grading and specs and have the basics down.

Anyways, this company gives a complementary appraisal of the diamond after they set it. For the life of me I cannot find the GIA cert, dated in 2011, to accompany the appraisal (I just moved, it's somewhere though). I do however have a pic of the diamond specs on my phone.

My question is, the appraisal came back with a cut grade of : very good, where as the GIA report I'm almost certain had an excellent cut grade.

Has anyone had an experience like this? Where the cut grade comes back lower. What techniques would they use to determine this without the cert?

Here are the specs, I think it falls into the 'Excellent' range? No?

Cut Grade

Proportions

Table
60%
Depth
59.4%
Crown Height
13.5%
Crown Angle
33.5°
Pavilion Depth
43%
Pavilion Angle
40.8°
Girdle
THIN TO MEDIUM FACETED


Thanks!

 

[Lorelei]

It sounds like what has happened is that the appraiser has assigned this Very Good cut grade according to their professional opinion on the cut quality of the diamond, which is not related to GIA's cut grading method. As to how they came to this opinion we can't tell without knowing what they base this opinion on. Your stone is a GIA Ex and it has very nice proportions, I am quite sure it's a lovely stone.

 

[Stive85]

It sounds like what has happened is that the appraiser has assigned this Very Good cut grade according to their professional opinion on the cut quality of the diamond, which is not related to GIA's cut grading method. As to how they came to this opinion we can't tell without knowing what they base this opinion on. Your stone is a GIA Ex and it has very nice proportions, I am quite sure it's a lovely stone.

Thanks! I appreciate the help. See I always thought that cut grade was determined by proportions though? Would this appraiser (without my GIA cert) have measured the specs? Or what could we guess she was basing this on?

Like I said, I trust them very much and am not questioning their capability to appraise stones. I just don't know what they used to determine this?


Thanks again!

 

[heididdl]

This is the reason why you have a GIA certificate. If you gave your stone to 10 different jewelers that you trusted equally they may all have slightly different gradings of your stone. Since AGS and GIA are considered the industry standard it is the reason why it is always good to have that certificate. An appraisal from your jeweler is also for replacement and insurance value if anything should happen to the stone or piece.

That being said I hope you find your GIA paper work as when and if you insure this piece you should provide the insurance co with the appraisal and the paper work. If the paperwork from GIA says excellent and you lose the pendant depending on your coverage they will cover an excellent cut stone.

Some insurance companies would give you what the appraised value others might want to opportunity to replace the actual stone depends on company.

I lost a stone and I actually had the choice...

 

[Stive85]

This is the reason why you have a GIA certificate. If you gave your stone to 10 different jewelers that you trusted equally they may all have slightly different gradings of your stone. Since AGS and GIA are considered the industry standard it is the reason why it is always good to have that certificate. An appraisal from your jeweler is also for replacement and insurance value if anything should happen to the stone or piece.

That being said I hope you find your GIA paper work as when and if you insure this piece you should provide the insurance co with the appraisal and the paper work. If the paperwork from GIA says excellent and you lose the pendant depending on your coverage they will cover an excellent cut stone.

Some insurance companies would give you what the appraised value others might want to opportunity to replace the actual stone depends on company.

I lost a stone and I actually had the choice...

Very helpful! When I insured my GF's engagement ring I made sure with the company what my options would be if I lost it.

I hope I find it too! OR at least the number of the cert. It is definitely around here somewhere, but with boxes of crap everywhere....

Sorry to keep asking... So when they do appraise the stone then they aren't looking at specs or determining them for themselves? So it would just be a judgement call from under a loupe/Microscope? Sorry, I just am trying to gather how they were make a determination of EX or VG without the numbers?

 

[Lorelei]

It sounds like what has happened is that the appraiser has assigned this Very Good cut grade according to their professional opinion on the cut quality of the diamond, which is not related to GIA's cut grading method. As to how they came to this opinion we can't tell without knowing what they base this opinion on. Your stone is a GIA Ex and it has very nice proportions, I am quite sure it's a lovely stone.

Thanks! I appreciate the help. See I always thought that cut grade was determined by proportions though? Would this appraiser (without my GIA cert) have measured the specs? Or what could we guess she was basing this on?

Like I said, I trust them very much and am not questioning their capability to appraise stones. I just don't know what they used to determine this?


Thanks again!

You are very welcome! No way of knowing how the appraiser came to this conclusion, it is possible they measured the proportions when the stone was unset, also GIA's cut grade is proportion based, AGS performance based, an important distinction in my opinion. The only way you will know is to call them up and ask what criteria they based this opinion on, it could be something as simple as the table size being outside * their* range for an Excellent rating, but definitely no harm in calling and asking, a good appraiser will be pleased to explain it to you. As for the GIA report, if you can't find it you can contact GIA and get a duplicate in some cases, I am not sure how much that costs nowadays but it's worth having the report most definitely, I would not want to personally be without it as it is important to your diamond in many ways.

Heidi also made some excellent points and also check the small print on insuring your diamond, make sure they will truly replace like with like of your choice, you have a very well cut stone there by the look of it and you don't want a dull cut dud replacement should the need arise, hopefully it won't but best to be sure.

 

[Stive85]

It sounds like what has happened is that the appraiser has assigned this Very Good cut grade according to their professional opinion on the cut quality of the diamond, which is not related to GIA's cut grading method. As to how they came to this opinion we can't tell without knowing what they base this opinion on. Your stone is a GIA Ex and it has very nice proportions, I am quite sure it's a lovely stone.

Thanks! I appreciate the help. See I always thought that cut grade was determined by proportions though? Would this appraiser (without my GIA cert) have measured the specs? Or what could we guess she was basing this on?

Like I said, I trust them very much and am not questioning their capability to appraise stones. I just don't know what they used to determine this?


Thanks again!

You are very welcome! No way of knowing how the appraiser came to this conclusion, it is possible they measured the proportions when the stone was unset, also GIA's cut grade is proportion based, AGS performance based, an important distinction in my opinion. The only way you will know is to call them up and ask what criteria they based this opinion on, it could be something as simple as the table size being outside * their* range for an Excellent rating, but definitely no harm in calling and asking, a good appraiser will be pleased to explain it to you. As for the GIA report, if you can't find it you can contact GIA and get a duplicate in some cases, I am not sure how much that costs nowadays but it's worth having the report most definitely, I would not want to personally be without it as it is important to your diamond in many ways.

Heidi also made some excellent points and also check the small print on insuring your diamond, make sure they will truly replace like with like of your choice, you have a very well cut stone there by the look of it and you don't want a dull cut dud replacement should the need arise, hopefully it won't but best to be sure.

I would totally agree re the insurance policy, I'd definitely want something sound proof so I could replicate a similar quality stone.

I wish facetware was still free! I want to double check that my proportions fall into the 'Excellent' range on GIA grading!

 

[Lorelei]

You can access Facetware by registering and it appears to be free, if you are on a mobile device, they also have a free version. Bear in mind though that the results on the GIA report and Facetware can vary. This is because the grading report is based on various factors that Facetware cannot compute or know about so you seem to remember your stone is GIA Ex which it most probably is, that's great, but no harm in entering what you have into FW and seeing what comes up of course, but the report trumps the results you get. Maybe have a look inside some files for household appliances for your report or other obscure place, it might just turn up in my experience!

 

[MarionC]

I may have missed something - is it laser inscribed? If so you could at least look up your certificate on the GIA website.

 

[Stive85]

I may have missed something - is it laser inscribed? If so you could at least look up your certificate on the GIA website.

It's actually not inscribed unfortunately. Ill find the cert I'm sure. I'm just shocked at the appraisal difference. To me the diff between an ex and vg cut is huge

 

[MarionC]

I may have missed something - is it laser inscribed? If so you could at least look up your certificate on the GIA website.

It's actually not inscribed unfortunately. Ill find the cert I'm sure. I'm just shocked at the appraisal difference. To me the diff between an ex and vg cut is huge

Not to worry yet. I got a jeweler's appraisal on a stone that was not the same as the GIA cert. [in this case, color]. I then took the stone to a GIA independent appraiser and it was just as stated on the GIA Cert. Color is not quite the same as a cut discrepancy, just saying you may not have a problem.

Also, if it says EX on the cert., it's technically an EX. So if you sell it or lose it, you get the benefit of an EX. Worst case: you know it's a VG. and that makes you unhappy. But there's a good chance the appraisal you got isn't correct.

 

[Lorelei]

I am pretty sure you don't have a problem and that your cut grade is Ex, Stive makes a good point regarding if the diamond was inscribed, but not to worry, my money is on your diamond being rated VG by this appraiser's own criteria. Your diamond has excellent proportions, I see where you are coming from that you are concerned with the appraiser's rating but meanwhile, do bear in mind if Ex is what you saw on the report, that is in all probability what you have. What I would do is this. Call them up and just ask what criteria they used to grade the cut of your stone and if they did so while it was unmounted. Then ask why they awarded your diamond the VG, it could be something as simple as their cut off is a 57% table for their Ex or 'Ideal' grade, or whatever terminology they use.

 

[Stive85]

I am pretty sure you don't have a problem and that your cut grade is Ex, Stive makes a good point regarding if the diamond was inscribed, but not to worry, my money is on your diamond being rated VG by this appraiser's own criteria. Your diamond has excellent proportions, I see where you are coming from that you are concerned with the appraiser's rating but meanwhile, do bear in mind if Ex is what you saw on the report, that is in all probability what you have. What I would do is this. Call them up and just ask what criteria they used to grade the cut of your stone and if they did so while it was unmounted. Then ask why they awarded your diamond the VG, it could be something as simple as their cut off is a 57% table for their Ex or 'Ideal' grade, or whatever terminology they use.

That's exactly what I'll do and ill make sure to post her response after I call today.

I guess what is odd to me is that she is GIA trained and while I know this doesn't mean a lot I find it of that she could possibly develop her own criteria as to what constitutes an excellent cut as opposed to a major lab

Ill update today!

Thanks everyone!

 

[Lorelei]

I am pretty sure you don't have a problem and that your cut grade is Ex, Stive makes a good point regarding if the diamond was inscribed, but not to worry, my money is on your diamond being rated VG by this appraiser's own criteria. Your diamond has excellent proportions, I see where you are coming from that you are concerned with the appraiser's rating but meanwhile, do bear in mind if Ex is what you saw on the report, that is in all probability what you have. What I would do is this. Call them up and just ask what criteria they used to grade the cut of your stone and if they did so while it was unmounted. Then ask why they awarded your diamond the VG, it could be something as simple as their cut off is a 57% table for their Ex or 'Ideal' grade, or whatever terminology they use.

That's exactly what I'll do and ill make sure to post her response after I call today.

I guess what is odd to me is that she is GIA trained and while I know this doesn't mean a lot I find it of that she could possibly develop her own criteria as to what constitutes an excellent cut as opposed to a major lab

Ill update today!

Thanks everyone!

We are very glad to help and that's brilliant, please post an update! I am just speculating regarding your appraiser's criteria concerning their own cut grading, it could be something as simple as the table size being larger than they prefer for their own particular ideas of what constitutes an Excellent cut, or the depth, could be anything. Maybe they will share their reasoning with you or maybe not, but it never hurts to ask. I have found this to not be uncommon actually, some in the industry do go by tighter or different parameters than GIA use for their cut grading but as far as GIA is concerned, if you saw Cut Grade Excellent on the report, that's what you have, even if someone else labels it otherwise!

 

[Stive85]

Well I called today and boy was I shocked... to say the least. Now I do want to mention that the owner of this shop has dealt with my parents for years. He does FANTASTIC work on his bench and stocks primarily GIA and AGS graded stones, many of high quality. I would have no hesitation to go back to him to have a stone ordered, or even more so set.

The girl who appraised my diamond is GIA certed for 10+ years, super nice and knows her diamonds to an extent (I would hope!). But I felt by talking to her that I almost knew more, at least for rounds.

I'm in the market for a REALLY top of the line cut pear diamond and have asked them what they could do to source one for me. I asked her if I could get an ASET image of possible stones when we were going through them... she seemed confused as to what an ASET was... I tried explaining it simply.... "You know the AGS diamond grading report, their most detailed report, you know that image in the bottom center which shows red, blue, green colors?" ..She thought I meant plot and started going on about inclusion symbols.... nope...

So I got to my stones appraisal (which I finally got the hard copy of today)... To sum it up she said that there wasn't a huge difference between a VG and EX cut diamond... of course noticeable, but not always etc etc. I asked whether they took into account my proportions, that fall under GIA Ex catergory. She said of course... Some equation with table minus depth (or some sort of simple equation) that gives them a rough estimate of where it falls under. They looked at the facets, crown and PA and so on. She was very nice, I was very nice, but needless to say I didn't get any bit of clarification, which to be fair is hard, since she didn't have the stone in front of her at that moment.

To add insult to injury my stone's colour came back on the appraisal as J-K and GIA graded it I!!! I happen to like J colour and mine has some fluor so that helps, but still! I asked just how they determined colour.. "loose if we can [they had my stone loose to start] and we have master stones up to L."

Again, I don't mean to attack her appraisal skills, because they are subjective right? Maybe my diamond is a J colour? Maybe it is only VG? Obviously I take GIA at their word, as they lead the class, but still they can be wrong. Although I think proportions don't lie!

What do you guys/girls think?

 

[Stive85]

Just for fun I'm going to have it appraised again today. Unfortunately it's now set, so it probably will be a bit harder for them to
do. Of course I'm taking it somewhere different to see any changes.

 

[OoohShiny]

If you can find your GIA grading paperwork, I would be tempted to contact them and ask if you can have it re-appraised and laser-engraved at the same time to avoid all this hassle in the future lol

 

[Lorelei]

Well I called today and boy was I shocked... to say the least. Now I do want to mention that the owner of this shop has dealt with my parents for years. He does FANTASTIC work on his bench and stocks primarily GIA and AGS graded stones, many of high quality. I would have no hesitation to go back to him to have a stone ordered, or even more so set.

The girl who appraised my diamond is GIA certed for 10+ years, super nice and knows her diamonds to an extent (I would hope!). But I felt by talking to her that I almost knew more, at least for rounds.

I'm in the market for a REALLY top of the line cut pear diamond and have asked them what they could do to source one for me. I asked her if I could get an ASET image of possible stones when we were going through them... she seemed confused as to what an ASET was... I tried explaining it simply.... "You know the AGS diamond grading report, their most detailed report, you know that image in the bottom center which shows red, blue, green colors?" ..She thought I meant plot and started going on about inclusion symbols.... nope...

So I got to my stones appraisal (which I finally got the hard copy of today)... To sum it up she said that there wasn't a huge difference between a VG and EX cut diamond... of course noticeable, but not always etc etc. I asked whether they took into account my proportions, that fall under GIA Ex catergory. She said of course... Some equation with table minus depth (or some sort of simple equation) that gives them a rough estimate of where it falls under. They looked at the facets, crown and PA and so on. She was very nice, I was very nice, but needless to say I didn't get any bit of clarification, which to be fair is hard, since she didn't have the stone in front of her at that moment.

To add insult to injury my stone's colour came back on the appraisal as J-K and GIA graded it I!!! I happen to like J colour and mine has some fluor so that helps, but still! I asked just how they determined colour.. "loose if we can [they had my stone loose to start] and we have master stones up to L."

Again, I don't mean to attack her appraisal skills, because they are subjective right? Maybe my diamond is a J colour? Maybe it is only VG? Obviously I take GIA at their word, as they lead the class, but still they can be wrong. Although I think proportions don't lie!

What do you guys/girls think?

I am sorry that didn't go as you hoped, but I am not that surprised. You now have a knowledge that sometimes exceeds that of some in the industry on new information, technologies and techniques. It happens. As I mentioned previously it could be that their method of disqualifying a diamond from a higher grade could be something as simple as one calculation or measurement of one aspect of the stone. Colour - sometimes diamonds do appraise higher or lower within a couple of grades or so than the lab states by a third party, but I would like to state in this case that I would be confident your GIA report holds the most accurate info on your stone.

I would suggest if you want to pursue this further, we have a list of independent appraisers that you can use to find an appraiser in your area. If you want to invest more money in another opinion, send your stone to them or alternatively, resubmit to GIA to get a new report if your old one doesn't turn up or you can't locate it.

I am sorry this happened, it can be a bit disconcerting, but I wouldn't worry too much. You have seen the report from one of the world's top labs on your diamond, chances are excellent it is what it states it is for colour, clarity, cut quality and everything else they graded it on.

I hope this helps a bit and how exciting with the pear! If you need any help with that, just ask!

 

[Stive85]

Well I called today and boy was I shocked... to say the least. Now I do want to mention that the owner of this shop has dealt with my parents for years. He does FANTASTIC work on his bench and stocks primarily GIA and AGS graded stones, many of high quality. I would have no hesitation to go back to him to have a stone ordered, or even more so set.

The girl who appraised my diamond is GIA certed for 10+ years, super nice and knows her diamonds to an extent (I would hope!). But I felt by talking to her that I almost knew more, at least for rounds.

I'm in the market for a REALLY top of the line cut pear diamond and have asked them what they could do to source one for me. I asked her if I could get an ASET image of possible stones when we were going through them... she seemed confused as to what an ASET was... I tried explaining it simply.... "You know the AGS diamond grading report, their most detailed report, you know that image in the bottom center which shows red, blue, green colors?" ..She thought I meant plot and started going on about inclusion symbols.... nope...

So I got to my stones appraisal (which I finally got the hard copy of today)... To sum it up she said that there wasn't a huge difference between a VG and EX cut diamond... of course noticeable, but not always etc etc. I asked whether they took into account my proportions, that fall under GIA Ex catergory. She said of course... Some equation with table minus depth (or some sort of simple equation) that gives them a rough estimate of where it falls under. They looked at the facets, crown and PA and so on. She was very nice, I was very nice, but needless to say I didn't get any bit of clarification, which to be fair is hard, since she didn't have the stone in front of her at that moment.

To add insult to injury my stone's colour came back on the appraisal as J-K and GIA graded it I!!! I happen to like J colour and mine has some fluor so that helps, but still! I asked just how they determined colour.. "loose if we can [they had my stone loose to start] and we have master stones up to L."

Again, I don't mean to attack her appraisal skills, because they are subjective right? Maybe my diamond is a J colour? Maybe it is only VG? Obviously I take GIA at their word, as they lead the class, but still they can be wrong. Although I think proportions don't lie!

What do you guys/girls think?

I am sorry that didn't go as you hoped, but I am not that surprised. You now have a knowledge that sometimes exceeds that of some in the industry on new information, technologies and techniques. It happens. As I mentioned previously it could be that their method of disqualifying a diamond from a higher grade could be something as simple as one calculation or measurement of one aspect of the stone. Colour - sometimes diamonds do appraise higher or lower within a couple of grades or so than the lab states by a third party, but I would like to state in this case that I would be confident your GIA report holds the most accurate info on your stone.

I would suggest if you want to pursue this further, we have a list of independent appraisers that you can use to find an appraiser in your area. If you want to invest more money in another opinion, send your stone to them or alternatively, resubmit to GIA to get a new report if your old one doesn't turn up or you can't locate it.

I am sorry this happened, it can be a bit disconcerting, but I wouldn't worry too much. You have seen the report from one of the world's top labs on your diamond, chances are excellent it is what it states it is for colour, clarity, cut quality and everything else they graded it on.

I hope this helps a bit and how exciting with the pear! If you need any help with that, just ask!

Thanks for the encouragement. To be honest I'm not remotely upset, rather confused as to how they wound up giving it that appraisal and it didn't help that the explanation was quite poor and not really detailed. The diamond and setting around absolutely gorgeous, ill have to post pics for you to see. I know for a fact GIA graded it excellent cut and I colour, so I take their word for it over someone unfamiliar with ASET , IS etc.

I like to think I have a good grasp on rounds, the different cuts, proportions etc. So I'm confident in my own abilities at interpreting an idealscope or a diamonds inclusions etc. I loved the proportions of my stone when I bought it as I'm a fan of 60/60 stones (it's got more fire than I expected though!)

Fancies are a different ball game for me. I plan to tell them I want ASET images of the pears in consideration or ill just buy online. I find it inexcusable they don't have them, let alone know what they are. Ill post any on here when I get them for sure and we can all decide on the best. It's gonna go in a tension setting, which I think is supercool and not seen too often.

Thanks again.

 

[Lorelei]

That sounds fine and we will be eager to help you with your pear, I think pears are beautiful and it's nice to see the shape getting some love! Tension settings are incredibly cool, just make sure the tip is well protected in the design and you will be golden.