"Cut" and pricing diamond?

[movesale03]

I need the help of an expert!

Could anyone educate me how does "cut" contribute to the overall price of the diamond?

And, why some GIA certified diamond scores as "Very good" even when both symmetry and polish received "Excellent"?

Let''s say, there are two diamond, GIA certified.
These are hypotetical diamonds having exact same tabel % and depth %.
No information about the crown angle and pavilion angle.

1) 1 ct
F
VS1
polish - excellent
symmetry - excellent
Culet: None
Fluorescence: No
Girdle: medium to slightly thick


2) 1ct
F
VS1
polish - good
symmetry - good
Culet: None
Fluorescence: No
Girdle: medium to slightly thick

Given such diamonds, how does "cut" determine the overall price?
I am wondering when two diamonds having the identical parameters,
but having the differences only in proportion/cut, then how much of that difference contributes to pricing the diamond??

My fiance wants to know why the Rapaport report does not have "proportion/cut" matrix but only the color/clarity/size.

He says that when you are presneted with two diamonds and they are exactly same size/color/clarity,
but one is more expensive than the other, then why one diamond costs more?

He was approached by the jewerller and asked about the size/color/clarity grades,
but, he was not asked about the cut until I joined the conversation.
And, the above question popped up.

Thank you very much for your help!

 

[denverappraiser]

Welcome to Pricescope!

I’m sure you’ll get a flood of answers to this so I’ll just pick one.
My fiance wants to know why the Rapaport report does not have "proportion/cut" matrix but only the color/clarity/size.
The Rappaport report is simply not applicable to your situation. The primary purpose of the report, and the reason that most diamond dealers subscribe to it, is so that they can continuously update their pricing as the market changes. It acts as something of a benchmark. They may have a particular stone that costs 18% back of Rap and they will never need to reprice it because the fluctuations of the Rap sheet take care of this even though they may have other stones that are priced differently. For dealers with thousands of stones where the difference between their selling cost and their replacement cost is few percent, this is a very handy thing. It also provides a shared language where dealers can describe a particular stone as ’18 back’ and it well understood by all what that means.

The Rap sheet is also often used as a retail selling aid in situations where customers can be convinced that the only value characteristics of a diamond are weight, clarity and color. This allows the dealers to offer 40 – 50 even 60 back on the right stones and under the right circumstances.

As a consumer, knowing how much your stone costs in relation to Rap is, perhaps, academically interesting but it’s not really very useful in knowing if you are getting a beautiful stone or if it’s priced properly. For most people these are the real issues at hand.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You seem to assume that there is a thing like commonsense and a thing like a realistic market.

Some of those stones are never intended to sell off the trade listings.

For instance 90% of the diamonds that are graded by GIA are shipped by Rapaport from India, Israel and Antwerp under bond to GIA for grading - then returned to those countries - all without duty etc.

Rap does this shipping for GIA, and whatever the vendor elects as the insurnace price is the price that many of those stones are listed at on Rap.

Some of the vendors hate Rapaport with a passion and would never let the stones be sold via his network - so the prices listed there are not neccisarily an "offer for sale".

Many of the stones listed on Pricescopes comparitive search engine are picked up from Rap by various and multiple vendors - but they may not be ''real'' prices.

 

[Nicrez]

Date: 6/13/2005 10:05:15 PM
Author:movesale03

I need the help of an expert!

Could anyone educate me how does ''cut'' contribute to the overall price of the diamond?

And, why some GIA certified diamond scores as ''Very good'' even when both symmetry and polish received ''Excellent''?

Let''s say, there are two diamond, GIA certified.
These are hypotetical diamonds having exact same tabel % and depth %.
No information about the crown angle and pavilion angle.


1) 1 ct
F
VS1
polish - excellent
symmetry - excellent
Culet: None
Fluorescence: No
Girdle: medium to slightly thick



2) 1ct
F
VS1
polish - good
symmetry - good
Culet: None
Fluorescence: No
Girdle: medium to slightly thick


Given such diamonds, how does ''cut'' determine the overall price?
I am wondering when two diamonds having the identical parameters,
but having the differences only in proportion/cut, then how much of that difference contributes to pricing the diamond??


My fiance wants to know why the Rapaport report does not have ''proportion/cut'' matrix but only the color/clarity/size.

He says that when you are presneted with two diamonds and they are exactly same size/color/clarity,
but one is more expensive than the other, then why one diamond costs more?


He was approached by the jewerller and asked about the size/color/clarity grades,
but, he was not asked about the cut until I joined the conversation.
And, the above question popped up.

Thank you very much for your help!

Welcome to PS!

Cut has many parts. Cut means for one the proportions of the stone, based on the angles of the crown and pavillion. Have you read the tutorial on PS HERE?

Polish and symmetry are correlated to CUT, but are not the same. Polish refers to the way a stone is finished by a cutter. If there are polishing marks, or an abraided culet, or burn marks from leaving the facet on the wheel too long. Basically the skin of the diamond is either generally polished Excellent or less...

Symmetry is a way to determine how similar the facets are shaped, how close to perfect the pavillion facets are pointed, and if they line up with the crown facets, if the table is centered, if the culet is centered, etc.

As for the Rap Sheet, that is really as Denver Appraiser said, NOT for the buyers, but the jewelery industry to sell among themselves. Basically the best way is to find a color, clarity and carat weight you want, make a spreadsheet of different prices, and note the table and depth percentages. Just to make sure the stone doesn''t fall outside acceptable limits, but after that I would just suggest on choosing based on the retailer or seller you trust the most, or would want to have set your ring.

Read the tutorial and hopefully things will become clearer, but don''t get caught up in the CUT issue by paying for "super ideal" cuts people in retail will sell you. Many people here have ideas on how to find a well cut stone, and will help you out. I personally would just stick within acceptable ranges, narrowed down to the more preferred ranges these days and then just choose price and seller.

Good luck!

 

[JohnQuixote]

Polish and symmetry grades are important to the finish of a diamond, but as long as you have 'Very Good,' 'Excellent' and/or 'Ideal' grades they are at the same level for all practical purposes. However, these particulars are not the most important determinations for how light behaves within a diamond.

Analysis of cut entails looking at several measurements, or 'proportions' for a round: Table% and Depth% of course, but also crown and pavilion angles (not percentages) and details of girdle and culet. These details of human make determine most of all how well a diamond will 'perform.'

Beyond proportions-based assessment there is also performance-based assessment. The most agreed-upon measure for our purposes here - and in many places - is viewing reflector images that tell you how much light is being returned to the viewer's eye. "Ideal-Scope" images may be found for many diamonds offered by PS vendors (and coming soon, the AGS lab ASET images).

There are excellent (ideal even) tutorials on cut and on interpreting ideal-scope imagery.

 

[Golden Oak]

Here is 2 more cents for you.

Cut is art, craftsmanship and beauty of the gem!

Caret, clarity and color are commodity when it comes to a diamond, and cut is the art. Think of it this way, you can go down to your local art store and buy the same basic materials that Picasso used on any of his paintings and it may cost you 25 bucks but that does not get you a Picasso painting. What makes that 25 dollars of materials worth hundreds of thousands of dollars is the work of the artist. Top cut diamonds like for example EightStars, are works of art made up of a very expensive commodity, the premium you are paying is for the work of the artist, the quality and craftsmanship that goes in to producing a work of art and beauty. For those who appreciate the art they are willing to buy the best art they can, others (for some reason) feel that they just need a diamond which is why there are a lot of very ugly diamonds out there. When I price diamonds I see the art and as art they priced accordingly based on the artist is and the quality of the work plus the cost of materials.

Regards,

Brian
Golden Oak Jewelers
Berkeley, CA

 

[strmrdr]

To expand on Golden Oak's art theme sometimes the name attached to it is the reason for the added price well beyond its performance merits.
You could spend several fortunes on a Picasso but actually find a better looking to you painting by Joe the painter down the street from you.
When it comes to diamond performance more performance costs more until you reach the point you are just paying for the name.
Thats why a smart shopper who takes the time to the research can find diamonds that will run with the big hyped brands performance wise for a lot less money.
Those are the diamonds we tend to love here on pricescope.
High performance diamonds without the huge hyped up name brand prices.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 6/13/2005 11:40:35 PM
Author: Golden Oak

Here is 2 more cents for you.

Cut is art, craftsmanship and beauty of the gem!

Top cut diamonds like for example EightStars, are works of art made up of a very expensive commodity, the premium you are paying is for the work of the artist, the quality and craftsmanship that goes in to producing a work of art and beauty.
Regards,Brian
Golden Oak Jewelers
Berkeley, CA

I beg only to differ slightly.
8* and other well crafted diamonds are not "art" in that the craftperson has little or no licence to exert creativity. Which does not mean that there is not great skill involved. But in the greatest skill that we see in the industry is the squeeeezing out of 0.999ct of polished diamond with awful symmetry, lots of naturals left under the girdle and lousy proportions - but the cutter also managed to chase out some inclusions near the table. When you see what some craftspeople do to acheive magic weights you realise they could cut every stone perfectly just like some of the newer modern technology does when the rough is straight forward.

 

[Golden Oak]

Date: 6/14/2005 12:19:13 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 6/13/2005 11:40:35 PM
Author: Golden Oak

Here is 2 more cents for you.

Cut is art, craftsmanship and beauty of the gem!

Top cut diamonds like for example EightStars, are works of art made up of a very expensive commodity, the premium you are paying is for the work of the artist, the quality and craftsmanship that goes in to producing a work of art and beauty.
Regards,Brian
Golden Oak Jewelers
Berkeley, CA

I beg only to differ slightly.
8* and other well crafted diamonds are not ''art'' in that the craftperson has little or no licence to exert creativity. Which does not mean that there is not great skill involved. But in the greatest skill that we see in the industry is the squeeeezing out of 0.999ct of polished diamond with awful symmetry, lots of naturals left under the girdle and lousy proportions - but the cutter also managed to chase out some inclusions near the table. When you see what some craftspeople do to acheive magic weights you realise they could cut every stone perfectly just like some of the newer modern technology does when the rough is straight forward.

I guess what makes art and artist is in the eye of the beholder, for me it is art is quality of the execution, the precision, and the skill. Just because the diamonds are cut to a quality standard does not mean that the final product is not art nor is the cutter not an artisan. By your standard the musician in an orchestra is just a skilled instrument player because he is being directed and is playing music written by some one else. In the end result is art, and all of the participants are artists in the creation.

Regards,

Brian

 

[Regular Guy]

The "price stats" database here (above, under prices) may also provided some additional perspective, being a breakdown of actual diamonds availalbe at different price points, from offerings here, based on measurable variances in how they are cut.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/13/2005 10:42:34 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

For instance 90% of the diamonds that are graded by GIA are shipped by Rapaport from India, Israel and Antwerp under bond to GIA for grading.

90% of GIA-GTL business comes from Rap! Are you sure about this statistic? I must admit that I have no idea what this number should be but it seems awfully high. Do you have any idea what the stats are like for where AGS gets their work?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver