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Crown height in Old Mine Cut

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by HoyaLawyaBride, Aug 5, 2010.

  1. ChunkyCushionLover
    Ideal_Rock

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    by ChunkyCushionLover » Aug 8, 2010
    Some points of clarification:

    In doing research for my recently published article https://www.pricescope.com/forum/ro...entions-for-cushion-cut-diamonds-t147789.html I was given insight into how GIA approaches traditional naming.

    Quoting from my text:

    1) Despite its use by the trade, GIA has not used the term Old Mine Cut or Old Mine Cushion on grading reports in at least twenty years if ever(my sources can't speak for times before they worked at GIA). An Old Mine Cut is a term applied properly to an early form of brilliant cut which was most common in the 18th century with nearly square or cushion shaped girdle outline.
    2) Old Mine Brilliant - A traditional term used to describe an early form of the 58-facet Brilliant Cut with a nearly square or cushion shape girdle outline, a high crown, a small table, deep pavilion, and a large culet. These are a distinct style from the modern proportion sets seen today of the same 58-facet arrangement Cushion Brilliant.

    The key points here are:

    1) Old Mine Cut is something quite different than what I see here, and much closer to the natural shape of the rough.
    2) Old Mine Brilliant represents a style of cutting and does not differentiate nor indicate the actual age of a stone. Just because a diamond satisfies 3 of the 4 criteria to earn this naming description does not make it an antique.

    There is a lot more detail in the article which explains in my mind how logical and consistant the GIA naming conventions are now(post November 2009) but I'll leave that up to the reader to decide.
     
  2. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
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    by diagem » Aug 8, 2010
     
  3. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
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    by diagem » Aug 8, 2010
     
  4. HoyaLawyaBride
    Rough_Rock

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    by HoyaLawyaBride » Aug 8, 2010
    Oh my! I had no idea (or intention) to start such a heated debate! I appreciate CCL's concern about potentially false representations about a stone's age, but in my case there was no representation that the stone itself (or the setting, which is admittedly a reproduction) was actually old. The term "antique cushion" was used only by me to describe the chunky facet style. I didn't pay more for any romantic stories-- the stone itself is romantic to me based on the style of the cut.

    I hope everyone is still friends after this debate! Old or new, the fact that people are learning about these antique cuts and falling in love with them makes both of your unique knowledge and skill sets an increasingly valuable asset. So thanks!
     
  5. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
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    by diagem » Aug 9, 2010
    Educational debates are good as long as they are civil.
    This one is IMO.

    CCL is showing great knowledge in the field for such short period of learning and I respect him for it. Although I dont agree with some of his argument styles on other debates he conducts but that is his style. I choose to engage with the ones I feel good with.
    I am trying to show that theoretical knowledge is just a piece of the pie as far as overall knowledge. Practical knowledge must be learned & practiced on the playing field and both are needed to really understand. And as with other fields..., there just are no shortcuts. Investing a lot of time is necessary.
     
  6. ChunkyCushionLover
    Ideal_Rock

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    by ChunkyCushionLover » Aug 11, 2010
    No argument from me, impossible to learn the trade from behind a computer. Your experience and comments are appreciated even when we disagree, I can learn from your great experience. I see a disproportionate number of reproduction vintage style diamonds on pricescope, far more than the antique ones. It is also my understanding that many of the true antiques have already been recut into rounds, but perhaps this is not representative of the general market as a whole.
     
  7. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
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    by diagem » Aug 11, 2010

    You are welcome... =)

    PS is a tiny drop in this industry, Although its nice to feel PS is a small world with a lot of information on what is unfortunately a very secretive industry, we are still far from the mainstream (and that is the reason PS is so special).
    I have been cutting Antique type cuts for over a decade now and only in the last couple of years more players got into this scene..., PS is a place I have been communicating about Antique Cuts since 2004.

    Unfortunately the majority of Antique type cushions these days are cut by houses that have little to no knowledge in Antique faceting designs and finishes which are too many to categorize (different periods fit different nuances which greatly impact the right appearance of the Era).

    Also like mentioned above..., Antique Cuts are not only Cushions..., there is a huge variety of shapes and nuances out there that fit different demand.
    I myself cut and market approx 10 different types of Antique Cushion shapes & facet designs, I have clients that use asymmetrical cuts (that are almost indistinguishable from the genuine Antiques including wear & tear marks :saint: ) to the highly symmetrical cuts.

    The world of Antique cuts spreads over numerous Centuries (actually 1000's of years but cuts were recorded starting in the second millenium), Its a whole world of possibilities.
    Your understanding is partially correct that many true Antiques were recut to modern stones; a lot of higher quality stones were recut to moderns as it made economical sense to do so..., it did less in the lower colored material, thats the reason most real Antiques out there are of second & third water (tinted material). But luckily high value in old handcrafted jewelry was always considered by connoisseurs which made it possible for a lot of great old pieces to be preserved including the original stones of the specific Era's.
     
  8. nettestars
    Rough_Rock

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    by nettestars » Aug 15, 2010
    Hello Everyone-

    Interested in a stone from a reputable (reputable on PS) company that I was told was an antique cushion/old mine brilliant. However, the table is is 58% and the certificate does not state that the crown angles are greater than 40 degrees. I would appreciate learning from you ladies/gents how these stats will affect the look of the stone. I have been assured that it is aesthetically beautiful though. The details of which I mentioned above though are hard for me to judge in a photo.

    Thanks for the help in advance!
     
  9. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
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    by diagem » Aug 15, 2010
    Based on reality, a 58% table combined with a <40 degree crown angle can definitly be considered an Antique Cushion/Old Mine CUT..., according to GIA, these numbers will automaticaly disqualify the Diamond in subject of earning the Old Mine BRILLIANT shape identification.

    On the other hand..., I have met plenty of GIA Old Mine Brilliants which didnt meet 3 of 4 criterea needed and also the opposite.

    Go figure!

    As far as the look of this specific stone..., it is imposible to predict without physicaly seeing the stone or at least a few images.
     
  10. ChunkyCushionLover
    Ideal_Rock

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    by ChunkyCushionLover » Aug 15, 2010
     
  11. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
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    by diagem » Aug 15, 2010

    Thats what I meant when I said above..., GIA is not an authority on this specific subject, the contrary is more likely..., GIA adds to the already present confusion.
    Personal grader judgements are in opposition to criteria. :(sad
     
  12. ChunkyCushionLover
    Ideal_Rock

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    by ChunkyCushionLover » Aug 15, 2010
    Diagem,

    It is a little disheartening to read your disparaging comments about GIA and grading labs in general.
    As a recognized authority and cutter of antique reproductions you would be an ideal resource to help change things if you approached things a little more positively. It has been my experience the grading laboratories are listening and may be open to change. I have open communication with members of GIA and AGSL grading labs and they are certainly not ignoring the suggestions I have made, and areas of inconsistancy I brought forward when writing my article. I don't beleive the two major labs are intentionally trying to add to confusion. Once one understands what they are and are not communicating on their grading reports there shouldn't be as much confusion, my article was written with this purpose in mind.

    I would be happy to read a comprehensive guide(or even a short note) from you on the numerous signs, criteria, or any other classifications you suggest to aid in the proper identification of true antique stones versus modern reproductions versus vintage cutting styles. This would be a more positive and educational way to attacking this problem rather than years worth of negative comments on these forums. Understandably, these properties and signs would have to be judged by viewing the stones in person, but many of these things I hope can also be illustrated from good photographs with the right lighting and multiple viewing angles.

    Regards,
    CCL
     
  13. ChunkyCushionLover
    Ideal_Rock

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    by ChunkyCushionLover » Aug 16, 2010
    That would be really interesting to see, especially a purposely planned assymetric one with wear and tear marks. :$$):
    You must have a really interesting operation, are there a large number of cutters that you work with?
     
  14. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
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    by diagem » Aug 16, 2010


    CCL, it has nothing to do with disparaging.
    GIA (& others) is a Lab which markets its services of “evaluating the qualities/attributes of Diamonds & other Gemstones”.
    There are scientific factors as there are subjective factors. Not all must be automatically taken as “The World’s Foremost Authority in Gemology”.

    Some factors I don’t agree with but there are plenty I do.
    I never said GIA adds confusion intentionally but their grading systems on some factors do add confusion unintentionally.

    Nobody is stopping their members from participating in academic discussions here on PS, I believe certain key members of GIA and other labs were invited numerous times to participate.
     
  15. ChunkyCushionLover
    Ideal_Rock

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    by ChunkyCushionLover » Aug 16, 2010
     
  16. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
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    by diagem » Aug 16, 2010

    Yes, I consider myself lucky as my work is also my hobby. 
    Antique cuts and Jewelry are my passion but only a part of my operation. I run a Company that basically cuts all ‘out-of-the-ordinary’ type cuts either designed by us or [co]designed & ordered to specific requirements of our clientele.
    From the asymmetric Antique types to the super precise Octavia as example of a joint development with Karl K (aka strmrdr).

    But since I am not a huge fan of Internet exposure I would rather not discuss details of my operations.

    Hope you understand.
     
  17. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
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    by diagem » Aug 16, 2010
    CCL, I am not talking about "Antique cutting styles" specifically , but the wide range of fancy styles & faceting designs in general.

    In regards to academic discussions ..., I believe in transparent education with no conditions attached.
    Me too I dont discuss all details of my practices on the public forum.
     
  18. ChunkyCushionLover
    Ideal_Rock

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    by ChunkyCushionLover » Aug 17, 2010
    Yes a fair response thank-you.
    Your company sounds very interesting when I go to visit my cousins in Ramat Gan, I hope I can meet with you some day.
     
  19. diagem
    Ideal_Rock
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    by diagem » Aug 17, 2010
    If you promise to behave..., with pleasure :wacko: .
     

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