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Couple uses guns to protect daughter

Discussion in 'Hangout' started by movie zombie, Jun 11, 2014.

  1. momhappy
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    by momhappy » Jun 11, 2014
    I never said anything about how she could have defended herself (gun/no gun, alarm system/no alarm system, etc.) and I certainly have never said that guns are the only means of defense. My post was not about what she should have done/could have done - I was simply posting a story of how crime can happen anywhere.
     
  2. smitcompton
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    by smitcompton » Jun 11, 2014
    Hi,

    The night following the last thread we had on the topic 5 people were shot in a Chicago neighborhood. The following 2 nites several more each nite. Children 3 yrs old just shot to death. Yes, gangs. As a mother I thought they are killing my babies-really, it brings tears to the eyes.

    But, If i see another vigil, or a march down the streets of one of these neighborhood, with the clergy saying "we will take back the streets", I am going to throw -up. I want to scream.

    So another big summit, Mayor, Business, et all, coming together to really, really do something about a particular precinct, and get the people jobs. Now I ask you, who would give a criminal a job? So now, its if you don't have a job, you get a gun and become a criminal.

    Sure, unemployment can breed crime, but entrenched gangs don't want jobs. I don't see any real solutions.

    Annette
     
  3. luv2sparkle
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    by luv2sparkle » Jun 11, 2014
    I am so glad that story had a happy ending for the family. It is a scary world we live in, and the answers are so blurred these days. The 'bad guys' used to be much more obvious. Now days, the bad guy could be your normal seeming next door neighbor, or the guy who comes to fix your cable. I have always liked the thought of target shooting and getting really good at it, but haven't ever purchased a gun. With a houseful of boys it scares me.

    Then there was that time our youngest pointed a toy gun at some potty mouthing kids at the school behind our house (from our front deck) and someone yelled gun, they locked down the school and swat descended on our house-guns blazing. No lie. Never seemed like such a good idea after that.
     
  4. redwood66
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    by redwood66 » Jun 11, 2014
    I am extremlely happy for the end result in this story. Just wish it hadn't happened in the first place.

    I also do not live in fear. These threads really get nothing done other than each side stating their belief. I am a gun enthusiast and state so proudly. My weapons do not jump out of their holster and shoot people. Criminals are just that - criminals. They will do bad things and have guns. Our gun laws are not lax, they are not enforced properly or with consistency. I am all for background checks but criminals don't use legally obtained weapons, I know this for a fact and it has been proven over and over again. Gun control in a nation such as the US will not work. Sure it works in other countries who have never had the freedom to own weapons in the first place. I don't have the answer but gun control is certainly not it.
     
    


    


  5. TooPatient
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    by TooPatient » Jun 11, 2014
    The bad guy looking like good guys is a problem! Just saw a news story in the last week or so about the guy impersonating a police officer who was only caught when he pulled over an off-duty officer...

    Scary story about the toy gun! I'm glad everyone was okay. My aunt (a k-1st teacher) had a student killed by police when he pointed a toy gun at police in his neighborhood. So many sad stories like that :nono:
    No one in our gun club allows their kids to play with toy guns no matter how plastic/orange/fake they look simply because it is so much harder to teach a kid to take the subject seriously if they see them as toys. I know that toy guns are common and "normal" so it seems odd to not let kids play with them, but after I thought about it I saw their point. If kids are taught to respect guns to begin with, there is less chance of them being one of those statistics who show off to friends or whatever.

    Anyway, I don't think I explained that well. Certainly not meant as a criticism towards you or any other parent. Just rambling about how tough it is to teach kids proper respect and gun safety when there is so much out there portraying them as toys or "cool" to be shown off. Taking the time to decide if it is right for you and your house is part of being responsible and I have nothing but respect for those who take the time to decide what is right for them. Figuring out how to keep kids safe and guns secure is a BIG must do for all gun owners (at least responsible ones... Those who don't bother make me :angryfire: )


    If you do decide to get a gun for target shooting, you can always leave it locked at the range (many let you rent safe storage). If you are comfortable having one at home, there are lots of great gun safes available.
     
  6. moneymeister
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    by moneymeister » Jun 11, 2014
    Good for the family that they could protect the child. Let's say they didn't have a gun, how would this have ended?

    My s/o conceal carries everywhere. Restaurants, offices, you name it. He told about buying his truck and said the topic went to guns. his sales person was also carrying, as was the sales manager. We have an extremely low crime rate in the area (1 homicide yearly in a population of 51,000 people). We also have a high number of gun owners.
     
  7. partgypsy
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    by partgypsy » Jun 11, 2014
    http://madmaniacalmuse.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/233/

    This pretty much sums up how I feel about it. The gun manufacturers don't care how many people die. They just want to sell more guns. To them any day with a body count is a good day, because gun sales are likely to go up. I think that is messed up.
     
  8. GliderPoss
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    by GliderPoss » Jun 11, 2014
    Clearly this is a very sensitive topic and whilst I'm glad this particular situation ended in positive way - personally I simply cannot understand nor condone the gun laws of the US.

    The idea that guns are freely available and anyone can buy, carry concealed & use one absolutely terrifys me. Requiring a gun for "protection" then requires everyone to have freakin guns, then the situation just escalates! :roll: Kids are killing kids whether by accident or design ;( I grew up on a farm with rifles and have done shooting myself so this isnt about professional sports shooters/hobbiests.

    After http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia) we swore NEVER again. 90% of the population supported new strict gun laws & licensing requirements plus the handback of semi-automatics. It worked - we have not had a massacre since! A good explanation of the new licensing requirements can be found here: http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mass-murder-australia-gun-control-saves-lives which I think are only fair & reasonable.
     
  9. moneymeister
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  10. luv2sparkle
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    by luv2sparkle » Jun 11, 2014
    The bad guy looking like good guys is a problem! Just saw a news story in the last week or so about the guy impersonating a police officer who was only caught when he pulled over an off-duty officer...

    Scary story about the toy gun! I'm glad everyone was okay. My aunt (a k-1st teacher) had a student killed by police when he pointed a toy gun at police in his neighborhood. So many sad stories like that :nono:
    No one in our gun club allows their kids to play with toy guns no matter how plastic/orange/fake they look simply because it is so much harder to teach a kid to take the subject seriously if they see them as toys. I know that toy guns are common and "normal" so it seems odd to not let kids play with them, but after I thought about it I saw their point. If kids are taught to respect guns to begin with, there is less chance of them being one of those statistics who show off to friends or whatever.

    Anyway, I don't think I explained that well. Certainly not meant as a criticism towards you or any other parent. Just rambling about how tough it is to teach kids proper respect and gun safety when there is so much out there portraying them as toys or "cool" to be shown off. Taking the time to decide if it is right for you and your house is part of being responsible and I have nothing but respect for those who take the time to decide what is right for them. Figuring out how to keep kids safe and guns secure is a BIG must do for all gun owners (at least responsible ones... Those who don't bother make me :angryfire: )


    If you do decide to get a gun for target shooting, you can always leave it locked at the range (many let you rent safe storage). If you are comfortable having one at home, there are lots of great gun safes available.[/quote

    I didn't take any offense. It's true, the toy gun he had was bright blue with a bright orange tip. It could not have looked farther from a real gun. Plus, he was in third grade. Now it's just a funny story. My boys grandfather is very into guns and the light in my boys eyes when he brought them out to see them made me very uncomfortable. There was just something inside me that said, "don't go there". I am not saying there is a single thing wrong with owning them, but that was just how I felt. It is such a hot buttom issue these days, but like most issues, there are so many vairiables there is not a clear viewpoint that is easy to point to and say "that is absolutely right".

    Shootings by people out to hurt others have become so common place, and they leave the country reeling in pain from the loss of life. Because of media, the people lost become so very real to us, they could be our own families. We hear much more about the loss at the hands of someone mentally ill than we do about someone saving a life with a handgun. The freedoms we have expected since the founding of our country also come into play. The loss of that freedom feels like a step backward and a defeat for freedom. I personally, go back and forth on this debate.
     
    


    


  11. TooPatient
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    by TooPatient » Jun 11, 2014

    It is a tough subject!

    I feel rather strongly that if every person took the time to research and decide what is truly right for THEM, there would be a lot fewer issues. For some people, that is having guns and knowing how to use them safely. For others, it is acknowledging that it isn't the right choice for them or their family. It is unsafe for people to purchase a gun if they really aren't comfortable with it AND willing/able to practice safe handling/storage/etc.

    We're there with "A" right now. She really wants to learn to shoot, but DH and I are both sure that she is not yet ready. She may or may not ever be ready. We'd love for her to take a safe handling class for teenagers so that she knows what they can do and how to safely handle in the event she ever finds herself needing to. There are too many kids killed when a friend takes out a gun to show off to just ignore the topic. We'd like her to know how to get out of that situation safely and part of that (for us) is that she see first hand what safe handling looks like so that she can recognize unsafe and leave.
    That said, she will NOT be taking a class (or handling in any other way) until we are 10000% positive she is ready to do so safely.
    If/when she has had training, we will STILL continue to secure everything away from her because they are our responsibility.

    Introducing guns to kids who are not fully ready to handle them safely and responsibly is one of the worst things I can think of. It is dangerous for them and others. Each parent knows their kids and knows what is right for their homes. For some, that means teaching in a super controlled environment. For others, that may mean keeping them away from guns (not because they are bad kids, just because they aren't ready for that).

    It makes me sick to read police blotters where guns were stolen from unlocked sheds. Usually with a date of theft listed as "some time in the last six months" :nono:
    They should NOT have been left unlocked like that and how the heck is it that it takes MONTHS to notice them gone!?!

    We have the RIGHT to have arms but we have the RESPONSIBILITY to keep them secure.
     
  12. nkarma
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    by nkarma » Jun 12, 2014
    I think maybe if it was a different time banning guns like Australia did could have happened, but when you look at this thread and the many others, there are tons of anecdotal stories about how people were either killed or stopped being themselves from being hurt with a gun. People are in great fear for their lives and the only way they feel safe is by owning a gun, so as JG and others have said, guns are here to stay. There have been many a psychological study as well as Maslow's hierarchy of needs that have found once physical security is threatened (or perceived that way), one's emotional health is poor.In great states of distress, how much gets done in a war zone? People are just trying to live & breath.
     
  13. ame
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    by ame » Jun 12, 2014
    EXACTLY. They make a LOT of money doing what they do, more than an average job could get them, certainly more than the job most are "qualified" for. I am 100% with you on that "we will take back the streets" crap, because they do that here. Trayvon Martin's murder and his killer walking free started a whole bunch of new drama here, and there are now whole hoodie organizations on marches. As much as I wish them the best of luck fixing this problem, the laws need to change and the prosecution of these offenders needs to change. Too many with repeat serious offenses just get released back out on the street. STL has a lot of problems but Chicago...oh my god Chicago. It's alarming.

    If I felt there was ANY way to do what Australia did here, I am all for it. I just don't know in the hell they would do it.
     
  14. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Jun 12, 2014
    I think maybe if it was a different time banning guns like Australia did could have happened, but when you look at this thread and the many others, there are tons of anecdotal stories about how people were either killed or stopped being themselves from being hurt with a gun. People are in great fear for their lives and the only way they feel safe is by owning a gun.....

    I'll confess this is shocking to me, because none of the people I know who own guns have them for self-protection.

    A few of them are collectors (they like to collect rare or hard to get pieces, just as some people collect coins or stamps); you'd be stunned to know how much many firearms either retain or appreciate in value.

    The rest all own them for sport; they go to the range to use them, and the appeal is the accuracy and repeatability of marksmanship.

    None of them hunt at all, and none of them rely on their guns for self-protection. Instead, they all have pretty extensive security systems (with lots of notices to that effect) to repel interest in their homes.

    Maybe it's because I live in a more developed region of the country in the burbs; the vibe might be different if we lived in more sparsely populated areas of the country.
     
  15. justginger
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    by justginger » Jun 12, 2014
    My father, brother, previous coworkers in the States, etc all freely admit that they own guns primarily for self-protection...and because the Constitution says they can. Hunting for a few is the primary use, and they still admit to feeling 'assured' that there are readily-available firearms in their houses. It makes me cringe to think of my friends and family living in a state of perpetual low-grade fear.
     
    


    


  16. LaraOnline
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    by LaraOnline » Jun 12, 2014
    This has become as interesting debate and it is with all due respect that I ask this: isn't the freedom associated with 'the right to bear arms' really boiled down to the freedom / basic acceptance of the right to kill people?? Under certain circumstances. Eg bad guys whoever they may be. And is that the basic problem? That, like cigarettes, the excitement and glamour of shooting comes down to the danger? ??

    Isn't target shooting essentially a case of 'I smoked but did not inhale'???
    I mean is there a cultural avalanche in other firms of target- hitting sports? Archery must be somewhat popular (it also is a traditional killing / war weapon) but javelin throwing anyone? ??
     
  17. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Jun 12, 2014
    JG, I don't doubt what you're saying at all about why your family members own guns; I just wonder where in the States they live that they feel constantly fearful? Maybe it's more common in the region of the country they live in?

    I live in the burbs of a metropolitan area in New England, and it just sounds so foreign to me because I don't walk around fearful at all. Yes, I lock my doors because it's prudent to, but I don't sit hunkered down in my house waiting for an invasion. Most people I know don't own guns, and the ones who do are sportsmen.

    One of my friends (R), who does own guns does also want them for security, but he grew up in South Africa where armed invasions happen quite frequently (his brother (F), who still lives in South Africa, has been robbed at gunpoint three times), so I understand how his experiences growing up in South Africa shape his thinking about security overall. When R's brother F comes to visit, he's always incredulous that we all leave lawn furniture, grills, etc. out on our lawns all the time; in South Africa, you don't leave *anything* out.

    It's sad for me to hear that your family feels as though they are in constant fear in the U.S. the way I'd think of R's brother F living in South Africa because that doesn't feel at all like the country I live in.
     
  18. luv2sparkle
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    by luv2sparkle » Jun 12, 2014
    I think it is not the desire or ability to kill people but the ability to protect ones family, and even more than that, to not be dependent on some other agency of the government to protect you. I don't find any glamour in gun owning or even target practice, but I do like to learn new skills and become good at them.
     
  19. LaraOnline
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    by LaraOnline » Jun 12, 2014
    I'm not being cheeky here but... Isn't 'protect' a pseudonym for 'kill' or at least 'deeply maim'?
    Or do you just plan on waving the thing around?
    The way I see it good people have become complicit in gun culture. Being a potential murderer giving a degree of control??
    Over here, killing a bad guy wouldn't be applauded. It would be murder.
    Being prepared to murder a bad guy ... Is kinda scary.
     
  20. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Jun 12, 2014


    No, it's not at all about the right to kill others. It was an individual's right to resist oppression (by one's own government as well as by outside fores) and to defend one's person and property. It was heavily influenced by the British Bill of Rights of 1689.

    This country was founded by citizens who fled Europe to escape religious persecution and oppression. At that time, European ideology held that there could only by one true and uniform religion in any given society, and that civil authorities had a duty to impose that religion onto non-conformists/heretics by use of force, up to and including execution.

    Providing the right for individual citizens to bear arms was meant to empower individuals to resist civil/governmental oppression and persecution by ensuring that armies were not the only ones bearing arms.
     
  21. smitcompton
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    by smitcompton » Jun 12, 2014
    Hi,

    What is a Militia really?. As I read the 2nd amendment it seems to me that it means a body of organized citizens utilized for emergency service. I look on the National Guard as being that service. I'm not sure whether or not each state has its own National Guard or if it is federal agency. Maybe the times are right to take it to the Supreme court again.

    I do see the other side and how it manifested itself. People may not live in a high state of fear, but certainly do live in a society that has become aware of the inability of law enforcement to protect us. I think it is a natural progression. Yes, the Media has also made us aware of the dangers.

    You need another powerful, rich lobby for gun control. However i see one possibility in the word "Militia".

    Annette
     
  22. justginger
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    by justginger » Jun 12, 2014
    Deleted. I specifically said I wasn't going to go around and around again, lol. :bigsmile:
     
  23. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Jun 12, 2014
    The people I refer to are fairly spread out, but none in NE. Iowa, Missouri, Tennessee, Kentucky, Texas, Alabama. A pretty decent chunk of the middle of the country, really.

    I don't have any experience living in those areas of the country, but all of them are considerably geographically larger than the New England states. I can imagine there are large pockets of communities with very little services in the way of law enforcement, which might be influencing the different viewpoints on feeling the need to protect one's self. Perhaps I feel less fearful because I live in a densely populated area with reasonably robust public services (including law enforcement).

    Surely everyone who has a conceal carry permit is doing so due to fear. Why else conceal a firearm in public? It's not for want of nabbing a buck on the side of the highway.

    Um, maybe not so surely. My friends who are gun owners all have concealed carry permits; they didn't request them specifically, they were what our state issued because they qualified for them. None of them actually carry because, as I mentioned, they do not use their guns except for at the shooting ranges.

    And, respectfully, I remember learning some time ago that the majority of pilgrims from Europe were never fleeing oppression or tyranny - they made the move for pure financial gain (cheap land!). Similar to how the Civil War was not actually fought on the basis of abolishing slavery, history has been rewritten as time marches by. Does anyone have credible information as to what the majority of immigrants' motivations were?

    As you mention, learning is certainly influenced by the teacher's interpretation. I took reference from an exhibition through the Library of Congress, which I consider to be a pretty credible source myself. :)

    "Many of the British North American colonies that eventually formed the United States of America were settled in the seventeenth century by men and women, who, in the face of European persecution, refused to compromise passionately held religious convictions and fled Europe. The New England colonies, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Maryland were conceived and established "as plantations of religion." Some settlers who arrived in these areas came for secular motives--but the great majority left Europe to worship God in the way they believed to be correct."

    I'm sure that economic motivation (cheap land) did become a more significant motivator with subsequent immigrants. Once here for religious freedom, I'm sure some of the other economic benefits became readily apparent and provided further incentive to immigrate here.
     
  24. packrat
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    by packrat » Jun 12, 2014
    I don't see owning a gun as a means of protection as living in a constant state of debilitating fear. We're not having panic attacks and cowering in the corner all night long every night, fearful that the boogeyman is coming. I don't drive a tank and put bullet proof vests on the kids when they go outside to ride their bikes. We don't live in a fortress. And it's not anything to do w/the ability to kill someone. Owning a gun for the idea of" yippee yahoo I might be able to kill someone that is so fricken awesome wooo hoo yeah" is pretty twisted. Owning a gun for the idea of someone busting in and pointing a gun at my kids and having the possibility of NOT watching them be shot in front of my face, that's a different story. Is it likely to happen? No. However, it was just as unlikely to happen to all the people that it *has* happened to, and I prefer to not make the choice to be completely passive and let it happen. The chances of law enforcement arriving in time are slim. Especially if you can't get to a phone or if someone doesn't just happen to see shit happen and call. LE is not there to *prevent* shit from happening.

    Concealing a firearm in public is the *smart* thing to do. Those in open carry states can freak out all they want, but it only makes sense to me, as a responsible firearms carrier, to do what I can to NOT make other people uncomfortable and to NOT call undue attention to myself. It's not about *fear*.
     
  25. TooPatient
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    by TooPatient » Jun 12, 2014
    Okay... Yes, in a sense.

    I have no intention of letting a bad guy know I have a gun unless I have no other choice. As it is a last resort to protect myself and my family, I will do whatever I have to -- specifically, if they have gotten to the point where a gun is my last option I WILL be shooting to stop them as quickly as possible. Yes, that likely means kill them. I also have the same hollow point ammunition that is used by law enforcement so it will cause severe injury or death. Know why? Because it is designed to not only stop the criminal faster but also reduce the chance of it making it through a wall and potentially hurting neighbors.

    I do not agree that shooting a criminal (who in all likelihood would NOT be interested in your well being) is murder. Yes it is killing but it is NOT murder. I would rather kill one criminal (if that is what I'm forced to) than allow myself or my family to be murdered.
     
  26. TooPatient
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    by TooPatient » Jun 12, 2014
    Yep!
    Great explanation!
     
  27. msop04
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    by msop04 » Jun 12, 2014
    Lax gun laws allow "good" and "bad" people to obtain guns. Strict gun laws allow "good" people to obtain guns... legally. The "bad" people just get them illegally. That's a problem when the bad guys have guns and their prey cannot defend themselves. We can't control the actions of others, but we should be able to defend ourselves and our families using any means necessary... I don't know why this idea would be shocking to anyone. I can't speak for everyone here, but I'd much rather be the "murderer" than the "murderee" if myself or my family were to be attacked. ::)

    I do know this... any story that can be used to place the gun itself in a bad light WILL make the news. It's the stories of self defense by someone using a gun that we rarely hear. I was rather surprised when the story highlighted in this thread made headlines... but I'm glad it did.
     
  28. NovemberBride
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    by NovemberBride » Jun 12, 2014
    I do not own a gun and I do not plan ever to own one. I am fortunate to live in a very safe area, I lock all my doors and windows and I have an alarm system. I believe these things keep me safer than any gun would. I have small children, so any gun that I might own would need to be locked away far out of reach. Despite the story posted by the OP about the family protecting their daughter with a gun, the fact remains that statistically you or someone in your home is more likely to be injured or killed by your gun than an intruder. Since I am a very small woman, I think that it is quite likely that would be the case for me as I would probably be easily overpowered. I also can't imagine that even if there were an intruder that I would feel comfortable discharging a gun in my home with small children and pets around.

    Momhappy, I am very familiar with the Eve Carson story, it is horrific and I can't imagine what she went though. I know this isn't what you were saying, but I don't believe that if she had a gun it would have helped her in that situation as she was taken by surprise by two criminals who would likely have easily overpowered her before she had any chance to get a gun.

    I do not believe we need to ban all guns, nor do I believe it is ever likely to happen in the US given our culture and history. What I do believe in and hope will happen before there are any more of the horrific mall or school shootings have become almost commonplace that the US adopts stricter gun control measures regarding who can buy guns and also adopts much more stringent penalties for those who are either straw purchasers or whose guns are used to commit crimes. I cannot for the life of me understand why gunowners cannot be required to submit to a universal background check and wait before purchasing a deadly weapon. The fact that in many states you can still go to a convention center on a Saturday afternoon and anyone off the street can buy and sell guns is absurd.
     
  29. packrat
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    by packrat » Jun 12, 2014
    It's absurd to me that you can obtain a gun faster/easier/cheaper illegally than you can legally. That says something to me. We could make it take 6 months to obtain one legally for target shooting or hunting, submit a written 5000 word single spaced essay on Why I Should Be Able To Own A Firearm, do 5000 hours of community service and spend 5000 hours learning proper handling techniques, be evaluated by eleventy seven therapists as to my suitability and in one day (heck, one hour) someone could obtain a gun illegally and be on their merry way to do a drive by or rob a bank or shoot up the mall. Or one gun per household, period, *legally*. In the meantime, I could be illegal and have an entire arsenal fit for the zombie apocalypse faster than I could obtain my One.

    We should just ban them completely. Then we can be super surprised :o when people are killed. Because they're illegal, yanno, so nobody can have them, and really, in this day and age, everyone is compliant with the laws of the land. I don't know why we didn't think of this sooner. Make a law. People comply b/c that's how it works. Wait...
     
  30. redwood66
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    by redwood66 » Jun 12, 2014

    I totally agree.

    I guess I cannot understand why owning a gun or three or 30 makes me paranoid with fear. I love guns and enjoy the hell out of shooting. Does anyone here with the comments of how fearful we must be have a hobby they enjoy? Why does my hobby have to be the axis of evil according to you? I carry because of the reasons stated above by packrat. But because I do I must be out of my mind since you don't like guns.

    Bad people do bad things and a gun ban will not stop it and may likely make it worse.
     

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