Comparing two stones...not sure on the advice I'm getting

[MadMan]

Hi all,

I've got 2 diamonds I'm choosing between and I'm not sure on the advice I'm getting, I've been told diamond 1 (details of both below) will be the nicer of the two but I'm not convinced. From my very rudimentary research, I think diamonds 2 cut is significantly better and the difference in colour and clarity within this range is unlikely to make much difference. That being said I'm happy to be proved wrong - price is almost identical! Any advice you could give would be appreciated.

Thanks is advance.

Diamond 1:
Measurements: 7.96 - 8.01 x 4.89 mm
Carat Weight: 1.90 carat
Color Grade: E
Clarity Grade: VS2
Cut Grade: Excellent
Depth: 61.3%
Table: 59%
Crown Angle: 33.0
Crown Height:13.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41.6
Pavilion Depth: 44.0%
Star Length: 50%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 3.5%
Culet: None
Polish: Excellence
Symmetry: Excellence
Fluorescence: Strong Blue

Diamond 2:
Measurements: 7.98 - 8.01 x 4.94 mm
Carat Weight: 1.94 carat
Color Grade: F
Clarity Grade: SI1
Cut Grade: Excellent
Depth: 61.8 %
Table: 57%
Crown Angle: 34%
Crown Height: 15
Pavilion Angle: 41
Pavilion Depth: 43%
Star Length: 50%
Lower Half: 75%
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 4.0%
Culet: None
Polish: Excellence
Symmetry: Excellence
Fluorescence: None

 

[Luce]

I certantly not an expert but Diamond 2 has a much better cut, just make sure it is eye clean. I would not even consider #1, the crown is too shallow and the pavilion too steep.

 

[rockysalamander]

Also not an expert...But, I agree with Luce . #2 scores a 1.5 on the HCA. #1 gives a 3.8, so should be eliminated from consideration. If #2 is eyeclean, it should be a better choice.

Also, unless you/r very color sensitive or it is cultural, an E or F can be overkill. Have you looked at G and Hs?

WF has a 1.918, G, VS2, A Cut Above, for $25,589, https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3751764.htm

BG has a 2.013, H, VS2, H&A Signature, for $26,765, http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/d...nd-ags-104050449012#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/0/

 

[whitewave]

# 1 is eliminated.

What are the inclusions on #2 and where are they?

You need more choices.

 

[LLJsmom]

Diamond #2 gets my vote.

However, you do need to know what the inclusions are on the SI1. You need to make sure they do not impact performance.


"Round Diamonds 101:

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. With round diamonds even a GIA triple Excellent is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only (HPD in Europe is good as well). EGL is a bad option: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones generally, though you can. In general, AGS0 trumps HCA though as one examines the actual stone and the other does not.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.

So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD,BE, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.

Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium. Some AGS0's are better than others though, so pay attention to any ASET or IS provided.

In general with rounds, you will want a table 60% or less. A depth between 59 and 62.3. Crown angle 33.5-35. Pavilion Angle: 40.6-40.9 (there is a little give on this). And the crown and pavilion angles must be complimentary which is what the HCA checks for you."

Stick to these proportions:

Table: 54-58
Crown: 34-35 (35.5 is OK with pavilion of 40.6)
Pavilion: 40.6 to 40.9 (41 is ok with crown of 34)
Depth: 59.5 to 62.3

Pricescopers will strongly recommend you do some more background reading before committing to buying a diamond (over 2 cts).

The community here are fantastic, experienced and will help you look for a beautifully cut diamond that would get the best bang for your buck. There are several jewellers with in-house stones here as well, depending on your location.

If you must buy from local jewellers, try your best to stick to the above parameters and you will be much more pleased with the results, once you leave the deceiving halogen lights that saturates any poorly cut diamond with sparkle.

 

[MadMan]

Thanks all thats really helpful and validates the research I'd done which is encouraging.

Also not an expert...But, I agree with Luce . #2 scores a 1.5 on the HCA. #1 gives a 3.8, so should be eliminated from consideration. If #2 is eyeclean, it should be a better choice.

Also, unless you/r very color sensitive or it is cultural, an E or F can be overkill. Have you looked at G and Hs?

WF has a 1.918, G, VS2, A Cut Above, for $25,589, https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3751764.htm

BG has a 2.013, H, VS2, H&A Signature, for $26,765, http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/d...nd-ags-104050449012#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/0/

rockysalamander - I am quite colour sensitive, and these stones have to match some heirloom stones I wear on a daily basis and they are colourless. They're also about $5000 over price (thats an estimate I am based in the UK)

# 1 is eliminated.

What are the inclusions on #2 and where are they?

You need more choices.

Does it matter where the inclusions are as long as they are eye clean (which they are)? I selected diamond 2 from a wide variety because for my price point I really liked the cut proportions, diamond 1 was recommended to me as a better alternative but I didn't think that it was.

Diamond #2 gets my vote.

However, you do need to know what the inclusions are on the SI1. You need to make sure they do not impact performance.


"Round Diamonds 101:

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. With round diamonds even a GIA triple Excellent is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only (HPD in Europe is good as well). EGL is a bad option: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones generally, though you can. In general, AGS0 trumps HCA though as one examines the actual stone and the other does not.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.

So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD,BE, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.

Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium. Some AGS0's are better than others though, so pay attention to any ASET or IS provided.

In general with rounds, you will want a table 60% or less. A depth between 59 and 62.3. Crown angle 33.5-35. Pavilion Angle: 40.6-40.9 (there is a little give on this). And the crown and pavilion angles must be complimentary which is what the HCA checks for you."

Stick to these proportions:

Table: 54-58
Crown: 34-35 (35.5 is OK with pavilion of 40.6)
Pavilion: 40.6 to 40.9 (41 is ok with crown of 34)
Depth: 59.5 to 62.3

Pricescopers will strongly recommend you do some more background reading before committing to buying a diamond (over 2 cts).

The community here are fantastic, experienced and will help you look for a beautifully cut diamond that would get the best bang for your buck. There are several jewellers with in-house stones here as well, depending on your location.

If you must buy from local jewellers, try your best to stick to the above parameters and you will be much more pleased with the results, once you leave the deceiving halogen lights that saturates any poorly cut diamond with sparkle.

Thanks for being so comprehensive. All the research I had done validated what you've said above I just wanted to check I hadn't missed something since I was being recommended diamond 1 - sounds like I haven't. I'd love to getting an ideal or aset view of the stones but the dealer I'm working through doesn't have them and they are basically impossible to get in the UK. I could order one in from Australia but it will take weeks to come which I don't necessarily have time for.

 

[oldminer]

These two diamonds are going to be highly visually similar. You would need technical tools to pick one over the other if you used various light scenarios. Where one excels in one kind of light, the other might excel in another lighting model. HOWEVER, #2 has no UV fluorescence. # 1 is strongly fluorescent. An E color diamond will not "improve" with blue fluorescence, so you are not potentially gaining anything by choosing the UV reactive stone. The impact on value may be there already and the impact in later re-sale may be important someday although not right now. #2 is a good choice and I think incrementally better than #1 unless you want the controversial fluorescent stone so you can feel it is "different" than the norm. Some folks like to choose the path less well travelled. I fully understand that mentality, too.

 

[whitewave]

I get the impression you have not seen these diamonds in person? To me, "eyeclean" is one thing but potentially hazy is another (not saying it is... just pointing out that we don't know at this point). Anything near the girdle, etc?

 

[MadMan]

These two diamonds are going to be highly visually similar. You would need technical tools to pick one over the other if you used various light scenarios. Where one excels in one kind of light, the other might excel in another lighting model. HOWEVER, #2 has no UV fluorescence. # 1 is strongly fluorescent. An E color diamond will not "improve" with blue fluorescence, so you are not potentially gaining anything by choosing the UV reactive stone. The impact on value may be there already and the impact in later re-sale may be important someday although not right now. #2 is a good choice and I think incrementally better than #1 unless you want the controversial fluorescent stone so you can feel it is "different" than the norm. Some folks like to choose the path less well travelled. I fully understand that mentality, too.

Thanks oldminer thats very helpful - it is difficult to appreciate if I'm being appropriately fussy or if this is more of an academic pursuit of perfection that I will never actually be able to tell the difference between.

I get the impression you have not seen these diamonds in person? To me, "eyeclean" is one thing but potentially hazy is another (not saying it is... just pointing out that we don't know at this point). Anything near the girdle, etc?

Absolutely right whitewave - this is a UK based online service (extremely well reviewed, personal recommendation to me) so I see it when I buy it. I know I can return it no questions asked, and haziness etc. is a risk, but I guess the extra effort of potentially going round this loop a couple of times is what you do for the lower prices.

 

[whitewave]

Right. If they have a good return policy pick one then. Good luck.