Comparing Color of stones online

[PrecisionGem]

After watching Pricescoper's purchases for a few years, seeing the vendor pictures, the customer pictures, one thing is very clear; It's not possible to judge the color of a stone from photo's. Often I see people post a few pictures of different stones and ask the group what color do they like better. This almost possible if the pictures are all from the same vendor, shot with the same lighting and camera, but comparing pictures from different vendors is really not possible. I can shoot the same stone with the same lighting, but use a different camera and get a much different looking color. Add to that, color corrections, and possible enhancements that are done after the picture, and trying to judge the color just gets worse.

The only way to compare color of stones is in person.

I always thought it would be interesting to take 1 stone each from 5 or 6 vendors, send the group of stones to each vendor to be photographed, and then post all images. I think the results would be enlightening.

 

[cellentani]

I love this idea! What stones would you use?

 

[brandy_z28]

That's a very neat idea Gene! Sometimes, when I'm having trouble capturing the color of a gem, I wonder what my stones would look like if I sent them to LTP, TL, or mochi to photograph. I'm sure that I'd find the results very interesting as well.

 

[Aoife]

I love that idea. Are there stones that you think are particularly hard to get a true read on that you would use for the experiment?

 

[Arcadian]

I agree with what you're saying in theory Gene because our eyes are always going to be a much better judge of the color over a photo online.

You also bring up a good point about different setups yeilding different results. No argument from me, happens to me all the time.

By the same token, some vendors don't exactly have a gracious return policy that others may have, and lets not forget the money it would cost to get the stone, look at it, then send it back if its not satisfactory. For some that ties up a lot of money.

its a fine line IMO and I see both sides of it, but I'd be interested to see what others think.

-A

 

[chrono]

Gene,
I absolutely dislike even the notion of colour correction and enhancement, which I absolutely refuse to do on any of my pictures. I hope that no vendor does that as I’d rather the stone look far better IRL than the picture. What you have suggested is partially already done in the “vendor picture and PSer picture” thread which is a sticky at the top of the page. In fact, some PSers have taken group shots of stones from various vendors all in the same picture so everyone can see the consistency of photography. While photography isn’t the best or accurate way to judge a stone, it is usually all we have unless both parties are willing to accept the cost and hassle of constant shipping back and forth, which can end up a pain for everyone. The cost adds up when one is considering several stones from several different vendors, not to mention the risk of a stone getting lost or damaged in transit. That said, I also agree with you that some people seem to take amazing photographs, be it a vendor or PSer, and others like myself, are exceedingly horrible at it. However, while this is fine for a consumer, it is of utmost importance that a gemstone vendor takes as accurate pictures as possible for obvious reasons.

 

[arjunajane]

Gene,
I absolutely dislike even the notion of colour correction and enhancement, which I absolutely refuse to do on any of my pictures. I hope that no vendor does that as I’d rather the stone look far better IRL than the picture. What you have suggested is partially already done in the “vendor picture and PSer picture” thread which is a sticky at the top of the page. In fact, some PSers have taken group shots of stones from various vendors all in the same picture so everyone can see the consistency of photography. While photography isn’t the best or accurate way to judge a stone, it is usually all we have unless both parties are willing to accept the cost and hassle of constant shipping back and forth, which can end up a pain for everyone. The cost adds up when one is considering several stones from several different vendors, not to mention the risk of a stone getting lost or damaged in transit. That said, I also agree with you that some people seem to take amazing photographs, be it a vendor or PSer, and others like myself, are exceedingly horrible at it. However, while this is fine for a consumer, it is of utmost importance that a gemstone vendor takes as accurate pictures as possible for obvious reasons.

yup-
chrono's post pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject.
Being international, I have spent hundreds easily on shipping-I have been fortunate that there are few stones I've wanted to return. I really do hope vendors are not enhancing photos in any way as I would venture to say this would just be a waste of time on both ends-I would rather see the stone looking its worst as well as its best before I commit; so from my POV a vendor who is happy and willing to provide extra photos in varied lighting is more likely to gain my business in the end.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Maybe you guys have misunderstood me. There are some vendors who have fantastic pictures, which I would guess look better than the stone does in person, and then there are some vendors who's pictures are pretty bad, and I would think the stone looks better in person. My thought would be, and I doubt other vendors would agree to it, would be to have each vendor photograph each others stones. So if we had 5 vendors, each submit 1 stone, each vendor would then photograph all 5 stones. I think it would be very interesting to see how the 5 stones looked from each vendor. There are some excellent photographs being taking with very flattering light sources, seldom do I see clients pictures compare to some of these. There are a few customers who do however take excellent pictures, that at times I think look even better than the stone does in person.

As far as altering the images with programs such as Photoshop, I think this is done a lot, especially with some of the eBay vendors. I know some of these stones don't have such intense colors as I see in the images.

 

[chrono]

Gene,
Oh, I now understand the intent of your post. I wish this is possible but unfortunately, like you, I doubt it is going to happen.

 

[Aoife]

Gene, I did understand what you were saying, and I think it's a really interesting idea, because until I have bought a stone or stones from a vendor, I have very little notion of how their photography "reads" and therefore how to interpret what I see on the website. In addition, different individuals see colours differently, so no matter how many questions I ask, what I see IRL and what the vendor sees may differ. I asked which species of stones you'd use for such an experiment because I know, for me, some colours/stones are especially difficult to read, and wondered if there was any consensus on those gems that are especially tricky to portray accurately.

 

[StonieGrl]

This is purely from one buyer's perspective, just my own:

I could spend a lot of time parsing the verbiage that is used to describe a stone, and I can spend lots of time obsessing over the pic that shows the stone, OR I can buy from a vendor whom I know uses great rough, discloses all relevant information about the stone, cuts a fantastic stone, and allows for return of stones within reasonable parameters.

I hate having to go stand in line at the post office to return a stone, so I buy from you, Gene, and I buy from Barry. That is where my best stones have come from and my best experiences. I have never returned a stone from either one of you because they've always exceeded my expectations and the description/photo/conversation with you regarding the stones.

I also buy IRL, I've bought stones at the mine on a miner's truck bumper and I've bought at Tucson because I live 80 minutes from Tucson.

But in terms of buying stones off the internet, I stick to Barry and Gene.

IMHO, you can tell quite a lot about a vendor when you read their return policies...I never considered setting a ring with Leon Mege because of the combative and aggressive language I read on his website regarding returns or problems.

 

[arjunajane]

Gene - I understood the intent of your post; I think it is an excellent idea and if you were willing to try and arrange it with the 'most popular' five or six cutters on the board (US based of course) I would be very intrigued to see the results.
How realistic do you believe something like this is to arrange?
As far as altering photos, speaking for myself when I say I hope 'vendors' are not doing so - I am not including ebay or other dubious sources in there. I mean purely the US cutters whose stones are most often bought and posted here, such as yourself.
I understand photo shopping perhaps a colour changer if you can't get the change to represent properly without doing so, but I don't agree / like anything beyond this when representing stones for sale. As you say, much can be done to enhance using lighting etc already..

 

[T L]

After watching Pricescoper's purchases for a few years, seeing the vendor pictures, the customer pictures, one thing is very clear; It's not possible to judge the color of a stone from photo's. Often I see people post a few pictures of different stones and ask the group what color do they like better. This almost possible if the pictures are all from the same vendor, shot with the same lighting and camera, but comparing pictures from different vendors is really not possible. I can shoot the same stone with the same lighting, but use a different camera and get a much different looking color. Add to that, color corrections, and possible enhancements that are done after the picture, and trying to judge the color just gets worse.

The only way to compare color of stones is in person.

I always thought it would be interesting to take 1 stone each from 5 or 6 vendors, send the group of stones to each vendor to be photographed, and then post all images. I think the results would be enlightening.

That's why it's really important to ask questions about saturation, hue, tone and color shift. I do realize I have a "different eye" than some vendors, so at least I think I know what to expect when I ask these questions. Unfortunately, for me, returns are a way of life, but at least they help me to judge a vendor's eye and the vendor better understands what I expect. I do wish more vendors would use videos under reveal lighting. I think that would be beneficial too.

 

[LD]

It's a great idea Gene but I'm not entirely sure it will help anybody? Ok, so we can see which Vendor's photos are closest to real life (if we've got the opportunity the see the gems) but that's not going to happen so how can we judge who has taken the best photo? Unless of course you're going to use 5 of your gems, send them to 5 vendors for them to photograph and then onto each PS'er for educational purposes?

At the end of the day, I've bought from some vendors and the photos bear no relation to real life. I've bought from others (and I would include you in this) and the colour has been virtually what I see in real life. Whilst I ask questions like TL, people essentially "see" colour differently so even a description isn't a failsafe way to buy.

For me, THE most important ingredient in buying gemstones is the ability to return stones if they're not as expected. By way of example, I've bought from a particular vendor before and his photos (and videos) are awful. I mean truly awful. How he ever sells anything is beyond me. However, I know this so I will occasionally take a risk and order something (he has a great returns policy). I've never returned a stone to him yet ...........

 

[dzop]

I was thinking about this last week, coincidentally. I think the correct way to deal with this would be if all the vendors bought a set of identical cz stones in various colors: red, green, blue, yellow, orange. Then stones could be photographed alongside those stones, sort of as a calibration.


Fwiw, I think the biggest problem with vendor pics is that vendors who use elaborate setups are using full spectrum bulbs which are slightly bluer than sunlight (which is is a touch redshifted after passing through the atmosphere, even at noon).

 

[Rockdiamond]

Maybe you guys have misunderstood me. There are some vendors who have fantastic pictures, which I would guess look better than the stone does in person, and then there are some vendors who's pictures are pretty bad, and I would think the stone looks better in person. My thought would be, and I doubt other vendors would agree to it, would be to have each vendor photograph each others stones. So if we had 5 vendors, each submit 1 stone, each vendor would then photograph all 5 stones. I think it would be very interesting to see how the 5 stones looked from each vendor. There are some excellent photographs being taking with very flattering light sources, seldom do I see clients pictures compare to some of these. There are a few customers who do however take excellent pictures, that at times I think look even better than the stone does in person.

As far as altering the images with programs such as Photoshop, I think this is done a lot, especially with some of the eBay vendors. I know some of these stones don't have such intense colors as I see in the images.

Hi all!

PG- I think it's an amazing idea- unfortunately it's likely impossible as it would require vendors to work in ways that are counter to normal business practices.....

 

[PrecisionGem]

Well, I'm certainly up for it, and wouldn't mind the postage to send stones to the next vendor. I did get an email from Jeffrey Hunt, who as we all know takes fantastic photographs of stones and everything else, that he would be available to shoot all the stones too.

I think it would be a very useful tool to see how each persons photo's compare, and then also to use Jeff's as a bench mark.

 

[Rockdiamond]

It is an interesting possibility.
If there are others, I'd certainly consider participating

ETA- as far as the ability of photos and video to capture the color of stones.
Some are far more cooperative subjects.
I'm lucky because diamonds are far easier to light compared to sapphires, for example- for me at least.
Certain diamonds are easier to capture than others.
Fluorescence, in particular makes capturing the color extremely difficult.
Complex colors are more difficult as compared to a "straight" color. Fancy Intense Yellow easier than Fancy Intense Brownish Yellow...sometimes......
But even these difficult colors can be translated to some degree in photography with most fancy colors. Some stones are near impossible.

Rubies that look gorgeous to my eye look like crud under lights......

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Unfortunately, with current technology, photos (and monitors) are not even close in the accurate portrayal of color. The dynamic range and color perception of our eyes is incredibly more advanced than any cameras. It's going to be a very long time (if ever) that a photo will convey what you see in person... each photo is only a sliver of the reality of what is present. While it would be curious to see photo's of several stones compared to one another, it would be for pure entertainment only. Even two gems, the same color from the same species can show dramatic differences in camera's under exactly the same settings. Camera's are not precise instruments when it comes to capturing the total essence and depth of a gem. Even two people eye's can perceive the same gem differently. The only true description of a gemstone will come when you witness it in person. Everything else is just an estimation or a 'sketch' of an individual's point of view.

I wouldn't have a problem submitting photos of a gem, but Emeralds are terrible to photograph and without a professional shooting them, they look plain terrible.

--Joshua

 

[AustenNut]

As a consumer I would find it helpful (and interesting) to have this project realized. Though no single photograph will be an exact representation of what a gem looks like in real life, one will be able to see nuances between various vendors. Sometimes a vendor's photos are slightly lighter or darker or... than the actual stone. If we're interested in getting a stone from Vendor A but have never bought from him before, but have bought from Vendor C, we can compare Vendor A and Vendor C's photos of the same stone to see how they might differ in their photographic results. Then thinking back to our personal experience where we saw Vendor C's photo and stone, we can make a judgment on how like (or not) Vendor A's photo is likely to be of the gem in question.

Basically, this is a long and convoluted way to say that I would find this helpful. This way one has a set of vendors to whom you can make likely judgments about the photographs of the stones without having had to have bought from each of them personally.

 

[Arkteia]

I'd love to have it done because otherwise to me the net result is mistakes and money spent unnecessarily. All I end up is realizing who not to buy from. Or buying great material and then looking for someone to recut it because the cuts are so shoddy.

Returns may be difficult; some vendors have three days' inspection period. It is not only money, it is time as well.

And honestly, I'd rather look at Chrono's photographs because hers look naturally. Excellent photography also contributes to the confusion, unnecessary expectations and disappointment.

I'd like to compliment you, Gene, for this proposal. I think you are an honest vendor who respects himself and his mastership.

If we can not make this contest among PS vendors, perhaps we could organize it for ebayers? Just comparison of photography and the products received. I think all of us have lists of "ebayers not to buy from" but by naming them or giving our opinion we open ourselves to verbal assaults (like it recently happened here). But a photograph is worth a thousand words.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

[In response to Gene's earlier post]

Hi! I'd be happy to shoot any stone that anyone has enough nerve to trust to the mail. Or, a group of gems also sent to other photographers to compare all the photos. I can't promise a satisfactory image of each gem of course but it might be a great experiment.

It's important to note that this cannot be a competition of any type, between myself or other photographer. Simply, there are many different gemstone photography conventions used online and it's important to recognize that. There are many good gem photographers out there with different approaches.

I readily "cheat" (yes, I actually said that) in my photos by only displaying those stones that turn out well, and about 20% of what I shoot is not acceptable quality - and this is from a high quality sampling too. I've noticed conversations here on PS about gems purchased on eBay. I doubt that I can get a good photo of the bulk of this material - enlarged to the scale I usually shoot. The tiniest inclusion, missed meetpoints, scratches, improper cutting angles are all magnified to the point of actually making a perfectly good gem look far worse than it is. It's not fair to the gem. I don't mind trying though, but it could get ugly.

The best photos (in my humble opinion) are of stones that look great under 10x magnification and higher. And also, this is a general guideline: Hold your gem under the table out of direct light, if it glows it will most likely take a strong photo. My ultimate judge of a good looking gem though, and this is my personal approach: Does it looks good at easy arms length.

(I don't sell my photography services and I have no gemstones directly for sale.)

Kind Regards,

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[CharmyPoo]

This is a great idea and I would love to see it.

Based on my purchases, I have found Barry Bridgestock's photos extremely accurate. His photos look exactly what the stones look like in real life for the purchases I have made. I have not been able to achieve the same success in the photos I take of my stones.