College or not college?

[TooPatient]

Another thread got me thinking about this.

Different areas seem to push college (or not college) more than others. There are people who argue it is a waste of money and others who say you HAVE to have it to get a decent job.

I know a lot of us have kids who are or will be approaching this at some point. What are some things to consider as helping them find their path? What do you wish you would have done (or not)? What questions do you wish you had thought about? Any websites or books to help them think about what they want for their lives?

What careers actually do require college? What are good options to look at without college? Any other skill building programs to do with or instead of school?

 

[missy]

I look at college as a necessary but not sufficient step. College is not only to get you career ready but to get you life ready. Yes you can and should get other life education/experience outside of school but IMO college gives you a valuable addition to real life experience.

I went to a liberal arts college and had the best of both worlds. That is, in my field of study as well as outside of it. I learned how to live away from home and interact with peers in a completely different way than when I was in high school. I gained a whole new perspective re other fields of study and other choices in life.

Of course everyone is different but I wouldn't trade my college years and the value and experience I received there for anything. I loved my time there even the unpleasant stuff. You know, like tests and all that jazz.

 

[Rhea]

I think there needs to be several realistic discussions, both with the school and within the family, about what the child is good at and what they would like to do. It's not just doctors and lawyers who make are successful or happy.

I knew from an early age that I wanted to do something related to children and educations. That meant I needed college and it was the right choice for me. I'm still in a semi related field and even though a degree wasn't required in the end it has been more than helpful. My 100K college education was mostly worth it

My sister knew from an early age that she wanted to be a hair dresser. Due to circumstance and pressure from herself, her peers, our family and other factors probably, she ended up at college. She changed majors a lot, didn't graduate, has tons of debts and in the end became a hair dresser. Had that been a decision which was allowed to start with she may have avoided the debts and years of indecision. College was a spectacular failure for her and I feel bad that she came of age in an area and in a family where that was the goal. My parents thought, really thought, that college would give us everything that they didn't have. It didn't. For my sister I think the pressure was more our parents and school than social class.

My husband is similar. Had to go to college. It was the only choice really. He completed his degree and has never had a job related to it. He had very little debt (college was free in England where he's from), but it wasn't a necessity. He does manual labour. Imagine a privately educated, 20K per year education from primary school on (age 8 to 18 I think it was), good degree from a good college, and doing manual labour! He's normally happy as a pig in mud. I think he's glad he went to college for the reasons @missy laid out, but the pressure to do what was expected of his social class and expensive education got to him emotionally and he's hard on himself that he's "just" a labourer. For him I think it was more his school and social class than his parents.

The conversations with children need to be realistic, open, non-judgemental and allow for those kids to actually know what they can do in each field and what it takes to get there. If a middle class boy wants to build stuff - let him! There's more shame in forcing children to pick a career related to their parent's social standing and expectations than in a child learning what they want and being happy. We need more training, more life classes in school. Bring back home economics and wood shop and ROTC and other non-college path classes.

 

[missy]

The conversations with children need to be realistic, open, non-judgemental and allow for those kids to actually know what they can do in each field and what it takes to get there. If a middle class boy wants to build stuff - let him! There's more shame in forcing children to pick a career related to their parent's social standing and expectations than in a child learning what they want and being happy. We need more training, more life classes in school. Bring back home economics and wood shop and ROTC and other non-college path classes.

Definitely! Not everyone is on the academic path nor needs to be. We all have different interests and different strengths. And I think different colleges suit different individuals.

 

[baby monster]

I find that the push to get everyone to attend college has been detrimental to trade schools. a liberal arts degree that comes without any real work skills and requires master's or PhD level additional education is useless. Debt taken on to fund these degrees is crippling to young adults.

A lot of young people are better suited for a vocational or trade school but somehow it became passe to work with your hands instead of pushing paper in the office. I find that a lot of people I know think being an electrician or a plumber or a mechanic is second class or doesn't require brains. If my kids want to go into a trade instead of college, I'll support it.

 

[redwood66]

I could not aggree with this more.

I find that the push to get everyone to attend college has been detrimental to trade schools. a liberal arts degree that comes without any real work skills and requires master's or PhD level additional education is useless. Debt taken on to fund these degrees is crippling to young adults.

A lot of young people are better suited for a vocational or trade school but somehow it became passe to work with your hands instead of pushing paper in the office. I find that a lot of people I know think being an electrician or a plumber or a mechanic is second class or doesn't require brains. If my kids want to go into a trade instead of college, I'll support it.

I have found that Mike Rowe can say what I feel far better than me. College is not for everyone and kids should not be told they HAVE to go to college.

http://mikerowe.com/2017/07/otw-mistakenstanceonimportanceofcollegeed/

 

[missy]

One size does not fit all is the most important point to remember. As long as one pursues something after high school that will help them pursue whatever their personal dream is. I look at vocational or trade school as similar to college in that you are furthering your education in a real sense of the word. Where it will count.

 

[LLJsmom]

So much to consider. I think every circumstance is different. Where do I start.
1. Given the price of college now, compared to 20-30 years ago, that changes the baseline of discussion for me. 99% of the population that gets a college degree must have a plan, a specific practical use for it so as not to waste $160K. I think that before anyone chooses a major, they need to know how much different professions make and whether that will meet the needs of where that person plans to live. I'm a backwards planner. What are your expectations of yourself? What lifestyle do you want to live? Where do you eventually want to be? Living in the SF bay area, two kids, a wife and a house and a life that allows you to go on vacations? That will run you about $200K a year. After 4 years, make that $250K. So you need to plan on making $250K. I swear I'm not trying to be all about the money. I'm planning backwards so no one has a rude awakening after 4 years of expensive education. And not all education has to be equally expensive. Then you look at jobs, that will at some point get you there, assuming you are competent and ambitious. Then you go back and look at what majors will get you that job. Of course it's not as simple as that, but you at least NEED to have that reality check. Being a teacher, social worker, lower paying government job will likely not get you there. Not saying cannot but just not likely. So I guess I am saying that if you are super practical about how you use your years in college and do the proper planning, I think a college degree is necessary.
However the discussion continues about certain other career and lifestyle and location options. Where you want to live makes a huge difference and the kind and the cost of the education you get. I have to come back with another analysis of this.
Awesome discussion. So practical and applicable. Thank you @TooPatient!!!

 

[House Cat]

My husband is a disabled veteran. This means that college tuition is free for all four of my kids. Under this benefit, they can go to college as long as they want and obtain as many degrees as they want... Currently, only one of my three Millennials is taking advantage of this benefit. The other two have chosen to work. The fourth child is 12 years old and hates school. He thinks he will join a band and become famous. Sigh.

My son that is in college has received two degrees already and is in grad school. He has the luxury of doing whatever he wants under these circumstances. He has always loved learning. He still does! He is the child who comes home and acts out the things he’s learned. I’m not sure he’ll ever leave the school environment.

The other two children decided that school wasn’t really for them. My daughter got into college and went for the first year but hated it. She’s working for a mortgage broker now. A year ago, she got married and bought a house. Her priority is building a family. I see nothing wrong with that.

My other son learned to do HVAC. School was always a struggle for him. Getting him through high school was a monumental feat. He loves physical labor. He’s built for it! He feels a great sense of accomplishment when he’s created something with his hands. He’s thriving in this job.

I guess what i’m Trying to say is that even with such an incredible benefit, my kids had to be honest with themselves about who they were. They can always go to college if they change their minds about their goals. Confession: I raised them with the idea that they must go to college but now that we are here, I’m happy that they chose to “disappoint” me.

It’s ok to let your wishes for them to be known, but in the end, it should be their decision to make. I think that if they are able to own their life decision, they will make the most of it.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

My kids are far off from college but they will be encouraged to go, if they opt for a trade school instead that's fine. When I graduated I didn't go to college and went straight into the insurance world, DH also didn't attend college and it definitely impedes a job search as he has found out. The really ridiculous thing is they don't even care what he went to college for just so long as he went and has a degree in something. SIL is currently at NYU getting her masters and she can't find a job due to lack of job experience, because she has been in college the entire time and working part time, so pretty much the reverse of what DH is experiencing.

My oldest brother went to college and studied politics and last I knew works at a garden center, so without passion for whatever your studying a degree isn't going to get you where you want to be IMO.

 

[lambskin]

All I can say it is an issue that children and parents need to discuss, frankly and honestly. The weight and significance placed on the many factors and variables make the decision unique to each family and situation.

 

[lyra]

College is different from university here. Colleges offer more programs with co-op placements which give on the job training, a valuable component. University is mostly theoretical learning. Most kids end up having to do both, as they find they either can't get a job without practical experience, or, they require a university degree on top of practical experience to get a job. It's frustrating. Both of my daughters went to college for 3 year diplomas. My eldest did 3 years of university as well, found it didn't suit her and then did college. She got laid off so she is going back to college for a condensed course that will give her a co op placement in a broader field and more opportunities when combined with her other diploma. I'm a huge proponent of tech/vocational schools for the practical aspect. Our real problem here is the economy and not enough jobs period.

 

[Karl_K]

A local charity requires a masters degree to work with clients.
Pay 40k a year and they have a waiting list of applicants.
I think trade school is a better option for many and if they dont know what they want to do they should go to a local community college that can transfer credits to a 4 year if and when they are ready.

 

[lyra]

@Karl_K My eldest worked at a foster home. She got laid off and now gov't agencies have decided that even contract workers require a masters degree to do the same work she has been doing for 3 years. She has to diversify instead. She found her strengths (training people, implementing procedures and protocols, writing training manuals, etc.). She's switching to HR where she can do all of that for any kind of company. And it's a shame that her talents working with foster kids, and parents will go to waste. Here, none of the credits transfer because that doesn't make enough profit for each school.

 

[Karl_K]

@Karl_K My eldest worked at a foster home. She got laid off and now gov't agencies have decided that even contract workers require a masters degree to do the same work she has been doing for 3 years. She has to diversify instead. She found her strengths (training people, implementing procedures and protocols, writing training manuals, etc.). She's switching to HR where she can do all of that for any kind of company. And it's a shame that her talents working with foster kids, and parents will go to waste. Here, none of the credits transfer because that doesn't make enough profit for each school.

I am sad to hear that.
The charity I was talking about works with the homeless.
Many of the people who work there put in 3-4 years and move on once they have experience to put on their resume.
Some fall in love with the work and stay at it even with the low pay.
More than a few get burned out after a year and leave the field entirely.
It can be heartbreaking work.

 

[lyra]

@Karl_K When my daughter got laid off, everyone in the office was crying. She was distraught because it meant she had to visit every foster home and tell them personally that she was off their cases for good. Several of the homes severed their foster relationship with her company. One foster child signed herself out of foster care in protest (her foster family just kept her). Kids and parents cried. It was absolutely devastating for everyone. She'd build up good relationships over the 3-4 years she'd had her cases. The kids didn't understand, and will have a hard time opening up to new. The few remaining workers are way overbooked. I think the loss burnt her out far more than the job did. It is a shame. Sorry for the thread-jack.

 

[kenny]

TP, kudos to you for even being open minded about this.
So few parents are, except for some in the lowest-economic class who's experience is generations of hopelessness.

There will always be exceptions, like the high school dropout who starts what ends up being a Fortune 500 company and the Ph.D flipping burgers at McDonalds.

But generally, better education leads to a better life, and I'm not just talking about income.

Don't get misled by exceptions.
They do not make generalizations generally true.

 

[denverappraiser]

Despite Mike Rowe, the statistics are hard to argue. College degrees, especially technical degrees, lead to career paths that pay better, are less dangerous, last longer, are more personally fulfilling, and are less volatile. That may not be what you want for yourself or your kids and it doesn't always work, but it’s a pretty good place to start. That was then and this is now but I’m still pretty sure it’s true. A PhD before your 30 isn’t an absolute key to a successful life, but it’s a heck of a leg up.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

The major push for college without exceptions is why so many of my friends are financially screwed. Parents demand they go to college, so they go, but with no clear direction or desire. They change majors, retake classes, switch schools, and finally finish 8 years later, 100k in the hole, and still working retail.

My husband is smart, but not particularly driven. He finished school with a BS in accounting after 5.5 years. Enough to get an OK job doing high volume AP work, but he would have to become a CPA to really do more. We both know the school would be torture for him and the debt taken on would be considerable. He also has no desire to work 80 hours a week, and I don't want him to either. He would have been much better off joining sanitation like his Dad, but his Dad wanted his son to be a college graduate. Such is life.

I have twin brothers who are nearly 15. One is destined for college, the other, we'll be extremely lucky if he graduates high school. We will help him figure out another path. Most likely a trade.

 

[Matata]

In general, I'm not an advocate of going straight from HS to college and acquiring back-to-back degrees. I wish all kids had the opportunity to take 1 or 2 years off between high school and whatever next level education they choose and experiment working in different environments and exploring all or part of the US or go abroad. There are those who are fortunate to know what they want to do at an early age and go on to pursue their interest. I think there are more who don't have a clue what they want to do, choose a degree at random when they are forced to declare a major and then find out at the end of 4 years that they're not interested in a field in their major. Maybe taking a break between highs school and college would help. The added maturity surely couldn't hurt.

I've always been an advocate for a college education. Not because it allegedly puts one on a better career path but because of what it does to the mind. College broadens the mind, exposes us to different ways of approaching life, teaches us to think critically and broadly. Even those classes that students hate opens up ways of thinking that they may not get exposed to otherwise. This is what prepares someone to be flexible and adaptable to changing life situations and changing work environments.

As far as those who think liberal arts degrees are worthless, a large number of employers would disagree. They like the general background and flexibility rather than having to retrain people who have spent years learning just one thing. When the university I worked for would meet with business leaders in all types of industries and ask what were the most valuable assets they were looking for in students being recruited straight from school, their answer was always "the ability to communicate succinctly in oral and written form." For example they said, "We can teach them how to do to X work" but we are desperate for people who can communicate well."

For those whose abilities are suited for technical or blue collar work, a 4 year degree seen only as a path to a career is not appropriate but the wealth of knowledge afforded for some form of formal education coupled with a technical one helps develop an open-minded approach to life and work and is priceless.

 

[Rhea]

The major push for college without exceptions is why so many of my friends are financially screwed. Parents demand they go to college, so they go, but with no clear direction or desire. They change majors, retake classes, switch schools, and finally finish 8 years later, 100k in the hole, and still working retail.

This. But less time, more debt. I wracked up over 100K in 5 years. I was lucky in that if I sold my soul to my college, and I did, they wrote off most of my loans at the end. I despise my alma mater. My college helped me but my college years were the worst of my life.

Sorry, that was a tangent. Unless a graduate went to a really inexpensive college or got a really high paying job it can seem overwhelming. Graduate at 22 or 23. Work for 5 to 8 years, all the while trying to pay off that substantial debt and save for property. Then switch to mommy path. And that's where most of my friends fall flat on their asses. My sister and her husband pay by over 1000 each month in student loan repayments. They have no property. Friends do but after kid 2 the career gets put on hold and less income, expensive kids means that college loan debt doesn't get paid. This is the norm. I stand by what I said in the other thread, I don't think it's bleak and every generation has its challenges. This is ours.

 

[Matata]

Projected job growth through 2026
https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_104.htm

This article includes educational requirements through 2022
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/article/occupational-employment-projections-to-2022.htm

 

[lyra]

@Matata I totally agree that kids are forced to decide a career path too early in life. Both of my daughters struggled with pinning it down. That meant 3 years of university wasted for eldest, as she changed majors 3 times. She then took 2 years off and went to college instead. Youngest switched schools 3 times. Both have ADHD, which was a challenge, and both took a long time to be sure of what they wanted to do. They are on track and love the careers they finally chose. Kids should have a break between HS and college/uni if possible. I know a lot of my kid's peers who ended up changing paths or ended up with useless degrees.

 

[redwood66]

Any path one chooses should should not be denigrated or put down as undesirable. This country has a history of that kind of thing. What is undesirable for one person may pay the bills in spades for another, all the while not drowning them in debt. Work to live not live to work. Of course it is a bonus if you love what you do but for many that is not the case. JMHO.

 

[Snowdrop13]

Projected job growth through 2026
https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_104.htm

This article includes educational requirements through 2022
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/article/occupational-employment-projections-to-2022.htm

That is really useful to know! I’m not in the US but I’m sure the data is similar for Europe and this is a great starting point for my forthcoming chats with my 13 year old who is about to narrow his subjects at school and has to make important choices.

 

[ericad]

College is non-negotiable for our daughter - she's going. That being said, I used to work for the
(rather, one of the, it fluctuates, but they were on top not too long ago lol) richest family in the world (in their personal business office) and, in addition to the Harvard and Stanford grads who ran the office, there were a couple of people there who didn't even go to college, but they were great at their jobs. My hairdresser makes $120k/year - she has a college degree but it has no bearing on her profession. My degree is in Psychology, however my careers have been in finance and, now, running a jewelry business. So...it's still non-negotiable in our house lol, but I've seen many real life exceptions.

Now, if I thought my kid wasn't academic and wouldn't thrive in college one day, I wouldn't force it on her. But we place a very high priority on education, have had her WA GET (state guaranteed tuition program) account maxed out since she was 5 years old, and make plans for "when" she goes to college, not "if". In fact, I hope that she'll pursue a graduate degree as well, and we will do what we can to support and encourage her in that. But we intend to pay for her schooling, so there are no loans to factor into the equation.

 

[kenny]

College is non-negotiable for our daughter - she's going. ...

Ouch, that sounds harsh.
Once she's 18 she can't be ordered to obey like a child.

Her choice.

 

[Bron357]

Here in Australia university now costs money and creates a Government HECS (Higher Education Contribution Scheme) debt, but it’s only for the education and it’s repayable at a small % from your earnt income once you start earning over $57,000 or so. If you die the debt dies with you.
My daughter is smart, she’s at a Selective School (we have Govt high schools that you sit examinations for and if your mark is high enough you get an offer) she wants to do Medicine. Here in New South Wales, Australia you now need to do an undergraduate degree first, then a medical degree. That’s about 7 years at uni plus a 1 year residency. She will have a massive HECS bill by the end. However she will pay it back slowly once she starts working.
There are plenty of other educational options here for other careers, again they now create a HECS debt, which is slowly repaid once you start paid employment. If you never earn over $57,000 odd, you’ll never have to pay it back.

 

[ericad]

Ouch, that sounds harsh.
Once she's 18 she can't be ordered to obey like a child.

Her choice.

Oh LORD, yes, technically she can tell us to take a flying leap (did you not hear the exaggerated tone in my previous post, lol?) But she wants to go to college and has never considered not going to college, we've raised her with the expectation that her education will end AFTER college, and her college is already paid for. She is on the same page. And if all else fails, I'll chain her to the hot water heater and force her to do online college...easy peasy. There's always Trump University, duh.

 

[kenny]

Good.
That sounds much better than what you previously posted, which didn't include an 'exaggerated tone' disclaimer.
I read what you wrote.