Chocolate milk- candy or food?

[janinegirly]

Date: 11/18/2009 10:01:19 AM
Author: LitigatorChick
Janinegirly, the short story is this (the longer more detailed story being in the article Jas12 posted): Milk is a cocktail of nasty stuff - hormones, antibiotics, pesticides, and dioxin!!! The so called ''good stuff'' is the calcium and protein. However, we are so lost as to how much protein is necessary that we are vastly over-proteined. As for the calcium, the protein inhibits the proper absorption. Get your protein and calcium from leafy greens, veggies, and legums, not from animal products (just like the cow did it in the first place!!!).

But can''t the organic version eliminate most of those additives? I think it does..it''s advertised as "no hormones/antiobiotics", but then again, I''m not sure organic isn''t overhyped in some products. And babies cant'' get protein etc purely from greens, not to mention there are plenty of bacteria/pesticides in those products as well.

I know I know, go read the article...

 

[ljmorgan]

We drink "raw" milk which is unpasteurized. No hormones, and no antibiotics unless the cow is sick. Janine, I imagine that hormone-free organic milk is similar. I was going to add that milk that hasn''t been pasteurized still has lactase in it (it is broken down via pasteurization) which allows people to digest it. Lactose intolerant folks typically only have a problem with pasteurized milk. We drink raw whole milk, and normal store bought chocolate milk. Yum!

 

[janinegirly]

Date: 11/18/2009 10:16:58 AM
Author: *Lindsey*
We drink ''raw'' milk which is unpasteurized. No hormones, and no antibiotics unless the cow is sick. Janine, I imagine that hormone-free organic milk is similar. I was going to add that milk that hasn''t been pasteurized still has lactase in it (it is broken down via pasteurization) which allows people to digest it. Lactose intolerant folks typically only have a problem with pasteurized milk. We drink raw whole milk, and normal store bought chocolate milk. Yum!

Thanks Lindsey, maybe the organic stuff is worth it. Interesting on lactase.

I remember living in England (couple years as a child) and the milk man delivering fresh milk everyday (in glass bottles we had to put back out at end of the day). Something to be said about old school milk I suppose.

 

[Jas12]

janine-- research shows that cultures that consume less dairy have lower rates of osteoporosis (and allergies i believe). And LC's point about cows is an interesting one. Cow's grow to be huge beasts (way larger and stronger than humans) on a diet of mom's cow's milk (for a short time until weaned) and then just leafy greens and grains. Sure, cows aren't humans, but interesting all the same.

I spend a lot of time reading and wondering about stuff so maybe i am a bit nutty but I am a big believer that food is a powerful player in our health so i pay close attention to it. Most kids will do fine on milk (and ppl will argue that many have) but as a parent i just can't ignore the info i've come across. It's just a personal choice and since there are good alternatives out there i rely on them.


ETA--Janine--we were posting at the same time. Yes, i do think organic milk would elimate many issues. And it would be great if we could get unpasterized (a lot of talk of it in canada). Also, kids can in fact get their calcium from leafy greens. My DH juices for us every morning ( 2 stalks of kale, spinach, a bit of broc, some celery, a head of romain lettuce, an apple and a lemon all go into the juicer for some green calcium goodness) it's a lemony slightly sweet juice that my son really likes.
We do organic veggies, but i agree, almost everything we eat has some downfall. It's annoying

 

[Mara]

I just looked at my Horizon Organic milk and it says ''Vit D Added, ultra pasteurized'' and then ''Our farms produced this milk without antibiotics, pesticides, or cloning''. And the ingredients are only two: Organic Grade A Milk, Vitamin D3. Honestly I never *really* thought about organic vs regular store bought for milk, but I have been unconsciously buying organic for a while now.

 

[LitigatorChick]

If one is going to consume milk because it is an enjoyable treat, organic and (if you can get it!!!) unpasturized is best - likely reduces the toxins found in many other milks.

That said, I believe it is a treat. Most has lots of fat and again, the calcium/protein issue is a big one for me.

Haven, you will love "Eat to Live". I love the main concept - fill yourself up with nutrient dense foods (ie. most nutrients per calorie), like greens, veggies, fruit, and beans. 90% of the diet should be these nutrient dense foods. 10% can be your "yummies".

Jas12, it sounds like we enjoy a similar beverage each morning. I have a green smootie - toss kale, chard, spinach, apple, and grapefruit into my Vitamix with some water and yum yum yum!!!! I need to add more fruit to make it appealing to Miller, but not a bad way to get some greens in a toddler!!!

 

[Aloros]

Juice and chocolate milk are both treats in our household. We make our own soymilk, and it is yum!

We''re also big on eating fruits as opposed to drinking fruit juice. DH has a really nice blender, so he is always making smoothies with whole fruits and yogurt. I''m pretty sure the kid likes these better than plain ''ol fruit juice anyways.

My stepson has ADHD and is practically addicted to sugar. Anywhere we can conceivably cut down on the processed sugars, we try to do.

 

[partgypsy]

I''ll get on my own personal soapbox. IMO humans are omnivores, and in general people who have the most variety in their diet (both daily and across the year) have the most nutritious diet. In general whenever people restrict their diet (for any cause, dieting, allergies, illness causing food aversions), most often the quality of the diet goes down because it is easy for the diet to become unbalanced. Also one''s digestive system may lose the ability to digest that type of food after long periods of restriction, causing more problems.
Another thing I believe in is that there is alot of individual variability in what someone needs from the diet, both in what they require and differences in what they can absorb from vegetable/animal products. The average American eats too much protein, but there are many sub populations that do not eat enough. I guess what I''m saying is while we know what a nutritous diet looks like, for any one specific type of diet, what works for one person may not work for another ESPECIALLY if it is a restrictive one (eliminating whole types of foods). One thing to keep in mind is that when kids are very young (3 or less) it is CRITICAL they get enough fat in their diet so their brains properly develop. Milk, cheese etc is a good source for that fat.

Myself I love dairy products (yogurt, milk in cereal, cheese). I personally think the nutritional/health concerns are overblown (have a bit of agenda behind them), but the ethical considerations are not. My daughter thinks all milk comes from some cow gamboling on some green fields when the reality is far far different. We do try to buy dairy that is organic or at least hormone free but it is not always possible.

 

[Jas12]

party gypsy--just wondering, what agenda do health advocates have that would be more powerful than a ''for profit'' company ? Most Dr''s don''t get paid to go ''against the grain''. What do i have to gain from researching food safety? Certainly not popularity. I think ppl become defensive b/c they don''t want to face the fact that they may be feeding their family something that could be less healthy than they were led to believe. I totally get that, iam guilty of it myself in other areas, And i totally agree with you, variety is key for good health. That is why we shouldn''t be relying SO heavily on milk to meet our nutritional needs. On average, americans do so every day. More variety of calcium, fat and protein sources, that are better utilized by the body & are free of additives, is what we shouldl be working toward IMO.

but enough from me,...see, told ya not to get me started

 

[partgypsy]

I do agree with the second article, about the "candification" and junkification of ours and our kids'' diet. I may sound like an old grump, but back in the day when I was a kid I had to eat my regular meals or go hungry. Our family pretty much never went to fast food restaurants (I went to my first fast food restaurant when I was in 5th grade on a school trip), and all sweets, etc were a treat (cookies in a cookie jar but only after finishing dinner, only time I had the sweetened cereal was visiting grandparents, etc). I think people have a good ability to self-regulate their food intake, but not if you are surrounded by alot of poor food choices. I love my husband but he just looks at things differently, such as buying highly sweetened cereals for the kids "because they like it". Of course they are going to prefer corn pops over raisin bran, when I was growing up I wasn''t given the choice! So now I''ve been making homemade waffles during the weekend, and a pot of steel cut oats, so I can offer them those options. They still involve sugar (maple syrup on the waffles, honey on the oatmeal) but at least the sugar is "visible" and the food has nutritional value.

 

[partgypsy]

Jas what I mean is that sometimes people will make a change in their diet that does have a dramatic effect on their health, or vitality. They believe in it so much (because it worked for them) they want to advocate for it including searching for a reason even if it means on relying suspect sources (for example groups against using milk for cruelty reasons, but cloaking it in health reasons). It may mean consciously or unconsciously being selective at what evidence one uses, for example disregarding the millions of people consuming milk or dairy products daily who do not report problems (but at the same do not go on internet boards to report this). To give you some background I work in research, so am somewhat familiar about problems in biases. Among other things I have been involved in studies with looking at nutritional supplementation in elderly, and also examining nutritional changes in patients undergoing chemotherapy. There is a large space between pro-dairy industry groups and "milk is evil" position. Both extremes have agendas.

 

[Pandora II]

Unpasteurised... I used to work in veterinary research, specifically studying Bovine TB and its prevalence. I can''t mention any results as I''m bound by the Official Secrets Act, but I won''t EVER drink unpasteurised milk.

I don''t know what the prevalence of Bovine TB is in the USA, but it''s fairly common in Europe.

Janine - sadly the days of the milkman are long gone here...

 

[Mara]

for those who drink it, what does unpasteurized taste like as compared to pasteurized? any descriptors?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/18/2009 10:21:06 AM
Author: janinegirly

Date: 11/18/2009 10:16:58 AM
Author: *Lindsey*
We drink ''raw'' milk which is unpasteurized. No hormones, and no antibiotics unless the cow is sick. Janine, I imagine that hormone-free organic milk is similar. I was going to add that milk that hasn''t been pasteurized still has lactase in it (it is broken down via pasteurization) which allows people to digest it. Lactose intolerant folks typically only have a problem with pasteurized milk. We drink raw whole milk, and normal store bought chocolate milk. Yum!

Thanks Lindsey, maybe the organic stuff is worth it. Interesting on lactase.

I remember living in England (couple years as a child) and the milk man delivering fresh milk everyday (in glass bottles we had to put back out at end of the day). Something to be said about old school milk I suppose.

I live in a rural area and still have a milkman with glass bottles - " rinse and return."

 

[TooPatient]

Date: 11/18/2009 1:48:54 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 11/18/2009 10:21:06 AM
Author: janinegirly

Date: 11/18/2009 10:16:58 AM
Author: *Lindsey*
We drink ''raw'' milk which is unpasteurized. No hormones, and no antibiotics unless the cow is sick. Janine, I imagine that hormone-free organic milk is similar. I was going to add that milk that hasn''t been pasteurized still has lactase in it (it is broken down via pasteurization) which allows people to digest it. Lactose intolerant folks typically only have a problem with pasteurized milk. We drink raw whole milk, and normal store bought chocolate milk. Yum!

Thanks Lindsey, maybe the organic stuff is worth it. Interesting on lactase.

I remember living in England (couple years as a child) and the milk man delivering fresh milk everyday (in glass bottles we had to put back out at end of the day). Something to be said about old school milk I suppose.

I live in a rural area and still have a milkman with glass bottles - '' rinse and return.''

I was shocked the other day. Home with our sick cat and this milk truck drove by. One of the neighbors gets milk deliverd. I always thought those bottles were just decoration.
(I''m not rural)

Sorry I can''t remember the name on the truck. If I see it again I''ll try to post it.

 

[elrohwen]

I think of chocolate milk as a treat or a dessert.

ETA: I looove drinking white milk and grew up drinking about 3 gallons a week. I'm down to 1/2 - 1 gallon a week now because I figured I didn't need the extra calories of drinking 4 glasses a day(even though I drink skim)

I still love it though!

 

[LucyL]

I think that if you add Ovaltine to white milk you get the best of both worlds. Some extra nutrients and the chocolate milk flavor.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Date: 11/18/2009 1:46:14 PM
Author: Mara
for those who drink it, what does unpasteurized taste like as compared to pasteurized? any descriptors?

I''m curious about this as well - I hope someone will chime in!

I love the idea of the oldtime milkman and the glass bottles (I''ve been watching I Love Lucy, lol). But I would not drink unpasteurized myself.

 

[purselover]

I''m in the anti-cow''s milk camp myself, so dairy is neither a food or a treat.

Any kid''s I have can drink chocolate soymilk on occasion.

 

[Haven]

LitChick--I just checked out my local Half Price Books store but they didn''t have it. It is on the "lost" list at my library, which usually means someone stole it! (Those are always the best books, right? The ones that compel people to thievery.)

Anyway, I''m going to see if my local used bookstores have it, can''t wait to read it.

 

[Clio]

My husband trained as a microbiologist, so he said absolutely no to unpasteurized.

There is a dairy near us that delivers their own (pasteurized) milk in glass bottles, and I''m thinking about getting milk from them. We''ve visited the farm, and they run a good operation.

We''re a family of milk lovers and go through 4 gallons a week.

 

[LitigatorChick]

Hey Haven, the back of my book (actually, the second copy I bought to send to my sister who suffers from lupus) says it is $14.99 in USD. Pretty reasonable and as you can tell, I highly recommend it.

 

[ljmorgan]

For those curious about the taste of unpasteurized milk, the milk to me doesn''t have a different taste, but it is much creamier. So if you''re a skim or 1-2% kind of gal, unpasteurized milk is probably not for you! The milk is not homogenized, so the cream floats to the top, so shake before pouring. In the springtime when the cows are eating young, fresh grass the fat content is crazy -- very, very rich

I can skim nearly a quart of cream off of the top of a gallon if I want to separate it for other uses. But other than that, not too different from the taste of store-bought. We drink store bought whole milk occasionally, and like that too!

 

[indecisive]

Ditto Pandora and Clio. I just could not ever drink raw milk, I would drink a dozen raw eggs before 1 sip of raw milk. Preggos should be especially careful because of Listeria and Toxoplasma. To me it just would not be worth the risk to the baby.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Date: 11/18/2009 7:07:02 PM
Author: *Lindsey*
For those curious about the taste of unpasteurized milk, the milk to me doesn''t have a different taste, but it is much creamier. So if you''re a skim or 1-2% kind of gal, unpasteurized milk is probably not for you! The milk is not homogenized, so the cream floats to the top, so shake before pouring. In the springtime when the cows are eating young, fresh grass the fat content is crazy -- very, very rich

I can skim nearly a quart of cream off of the top of a gallon if I want to separate it for other uses. But other than that, not too different from the taste of store-bought. We drink store bought whole milk occasionally, and like that too!

That''s really interesting. I''d love to try it sometime - though in a safe to drink unpasteurized milk country, not in the US

I actually really like Over the Moon 2% - I have no idea exactly what they do to it, but it''s super rich and creamy, like whole milk, which I love. Unfortunately the stores near me don''t carry it

 

[Jas12]

Part gypsy--i see what you are saying, but i still think there is too much evidence to ignore (and not research put out by animal cruelty organizations, i would ignore any study commissioned by the milk industry or the anti-milk industry. If you look at the link i posted i believe there are references attached from well respected journals). I also do agree that ppl look for examples to confirm their suspicions (my whole family worked to confirm my personal bias) but it is no secret that a very large proportion of the population suffers from lactose intolerance b/c we loose our ability to properly digest dairy around the time we are meant to naturally wean from breast milk, just as all mammals do. Some cultures that don''t consume massive amounts of dairy report levels of lactose intolerance of around 90 %! So in fact millions of ppl DO report problems. And most of the world does not and cannot consume the dairy we do. But in north america it appears that since we have consumed copious amounts of dairy for several generations we have adapted better to it and about 20% of ppl report it. So although we may deal with it better i also don''t think that means we are necessarily feeling our best from it. Anecdotally, i have suffered from bloating and general tummy discomfort my whole life but considered myself to be very healthy. It wasn''t until i hit adulthood i wondered if i could feel even better. That led me to look at milk, and man, i didn''t know how sluggish and blocked up i really was. When you live your entire life feeling a certain way, how do you know any different? It took some convincing to get my family to follow suit, but they were amazed too.



Pandora--is unpasturized an issue if the cows are from a local small farm, not treated with anitibiotics or hormones? Or is it a bacteria issue?
Also, i thought bovine hormone was banned in europe & aussie now too? No, maybe just certain countries?

 

[LitigatorChick]

To confirm what Jas12 was saying, I felt "healthy" before I made changes to my diet. Since I have made these changes, I feel incredibly better and different! I didn''t know what it was like to feel this way. I have seen the very same thing was numerous people.

I also know many people are resistent to change. My sister suffers badly from lupus and is medicated like crazy. I have suggested that she try dietary changes, starting with eliminating dairy. She won''t. She is willing to suffer rather than lose her milk. This "addiction" created by our culture shocks me.

Good, bad or otherwise, dairy is a treat. We do not need it to be healthy (despite what the dairy lobby, with its gazillion of dollars in marketing power will say).

 

[janinegirly]

I think we''ve probably reached a point where the pro milk camp and anti milk camp will have to agree to disagree.

We have no lactose intolerance in my entire family (and extended) and are milk drinkers. Little to no chronic health problems (that are not age related). C has drank cow based milk products since birth and loves her cheese and yoghurt (all organic of course, costing me a fortune!) and hasn''t even spit up..ever! (ok maybe 2-3 times in the first 4 months).

I however am uncomfortable with all the additives, hormones, pesticides so will always look for organic. And I will try to read one of these books so I can at least educate myself on the other side.

And while I know that there is $ industries behind some of this, that''s the case in every single aspect of our society (hospitals, religion, higher edcucation)--this is the nature of capitalism and speciall interests lobbyists in Washington,etc. (US focus in this comment, I realize). But then we have the overzealous regulators/media/theorists who write books to balance it out. Goes on and on, we do our piece as mothers to do the right thing, but also stay grounded/practical.

 

[JSM]

Treat!

I have a bit of a lactose intolerance, and drink soy milk. Usually only in my cereal. Occasionally as a treat I''ll add chocolate syrup to my soymilk and drink it straight. I still eat cheese though. I know it''s not good for me for many reasons, but I just can''t give it up.

My husband grew up on a farm and won''t drink anything less than whole milk. I try to buy it from Trader Joe''s, at least, to avoid the antibiotics and hormones. His favorite is warm milk straight from the cow, which he can get when he visits his home (very rural middle America) town. I think it''s gross, but he makes fun of me for my soy ''juice'' (because "if it didn''t come from a teat, it''s not milk!" he says). He''s fairly thin and needs the calories, though, so whole milk for him.

When we have kids I''m not sure what we''ll do. I was raised on a lot of dairy, and so was he, but I know now too much of anything isn''t good for young bodies. We''ll cross that bridge when we come to it, I guess.

 

[partgypsy]

Jas, I may have missed it but the only link I saw was an opinion piece.

I''m not going to go into bgh and antibiotics because that''s like saying corn is bad because cornflakes are bad.

There is some interesting research that consuming calcium with high amounts of protein may inhibit absorption due to ketosis. However the same research shows that eating protein with calcium allows more of the calcium to be bioavailable possibly making a 0 net difference, so more research is needed. Other studies show eating calcium with too little protein is a problem as well.

I never know what people are talking about when they say that "pasteurization kills all the good stuff". You mean the protein, Vit E, calcium, etc? I''m not sure what this magical quality is, other than it''s supposed to taste better unpasterized.

Studies have found an association between "countries that consume the highest levels of dairy have the highest levels of osteoporosis, something that just doesn''t support the claim that milk-based calcium equals improved bone density." Have you ever heard that correlation does not imply causation? Is it possible the association may have to do with: a) American and European countries also have a longer life span. Likelihood of osteoporisis greatly increases with age. b) Osteoporosis has a large genetic component, with northern european descent being the most vulnerable. c) Bone density is highly related to weight bearing exercise. Guess which countries on the whole are more sedentary? d) Calcium absorption is dependent on Vit D levels. The best way to get Vit D is through sunshine. Guess which countries have not only less sunshine, but whose populations stay indoors 95% of the time?

If you do literature searches on dairy and calcium you will also find many studies finding that consuming calcium, dairy products in particular in both pre teen and also young women up to 35 is not only associated with greater bone density in the places that matter (like spine, not fingertips) but that it is correlated with protection against developing osteoporosis.

The links that are provided do refer to peer reviewed journals, but also appear to ignore more recent epidemological and other studies that do not support their view.

All I am saying is that dairy has a place in a healthy varied diet. Results may vary. My main issue is that it does bother me because of my background when science is "massaged" to support an extremist position, and that I have concerns (I don''t think this applies to you JAS or Litigatorchick -yours sound more of a lifestyle change) when people jump onto diets that may be unbalanced or overly restrictive with insufficient information.