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Can we believe and trust our government?

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
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Feb 5, 2004
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So let's say a democrat didn't apologize, does that make it okay for the Donald not to? I do not label myself a democrat or a republican. I label myself a human being. I stand for human beings. That's really what I am about.
What it means is that yo do not call Donald Trump out unless you do the other side as well?
 

siamese3

Brilliant_Rock
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Messages
721
What it means is that yo do not call Donald Trump out unless you do the other side as well?
All politicians should be held accountable. They work for us.

Edited to say: Obama is no longer president. Hillary Clinton is not president. The republicans are in control of congress.
 
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monarch64

Super_Ideal_Rock
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17,715
Ruby, I can't discuss further because my points would involve religion and I'd be in violation of the terms of use here. I hear you, though, whether I agree or not, and I understand your stance. As always, I appreciate the discourse.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
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8,557
I think most politicians irrespective of the side they are on "bend" the truth to suit their own agendas and set of circumstances. People keep bringing up Obama, he did this or he didn't do that. From an outsiders point of view irrespective of what he did or didn't do, the difference is obvious, Obama was by in large a decent human being, or at least most (probably not all because lets face it none of us are perfect) of the time attempted to be. Trump on the other hand is not a decent human being. He is a morally bankrupt narcissist who is using his position of power to line his own pockets and the pockets of his buddies around him. He makes many decisions based upon the advise of several key advisors that have agendas on the severe right politically. And that cannot be good for your country.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Hell No!!!! I don't believe anything this President says. He flat out lies about things that can easily be fact checked why would anyone assuming he tells the truth about anything. The man is a liar.
HRC is the most honest person on earth...;-). That's the reason why she lost to Trump...:lol:
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
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I think most politicians irrespective of the side they are on "bend" the truth to suit their own agendas and set of circumstances. People keep bringing up Obama, he did this or he didn't do that. From an outsiders point of view irrespective of what he did or didn't do, the difference is obvious, Obama was by in large a decent human being, or at least most (probably not all because lets face it none of us are perfect) of the time attempted to be. Trump on the other hand is not a decent human being. He is a morally bankrupt narcissist who is using his position of power to line his own pockets and the pockets of his buddies around him. He makes many decisions based upon the advise of several key advisors that have agendas on the severe right politically. And that cannot be good for your country.
Much has come out about Obama that would seriously dispute that.
 

Calliecake

Ideal_Rock
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6,674
How can 394 false or misleading statements not be alarming to Republican?

DF, HIllary is not President. I have no idea why you are still referring to her. If you bothered to see how the candidates were rated for telling lies during the campaign you would know that Trump was the candidate that lied the most. Hillary was at the bottom of that list, while Trump was at the top.

I think we are all in agreement that there isn't a politician who tells the truth about everything.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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30,357
I think we are all in agreement that there isn't a politician who tells the truth about everything.
That is something we can both agree on!..:mrgreen:
 

NewEnglandLady

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Jul 27, 2007
Messages
6,298
There is a reason people think "politician" is synonymous with corruption and distrust. I agree with those who think they should not be trusted, regardless of who is in office. I also think it's one of the biggest reasons HRC lost the election--the career politician vs. the non-politician. Even with the endless list of Trump's faults, it could be worse...he could be a career politician.
 

cmd2014

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2,370
My views are non-partisan (and keep in mind I'm Canadian, and our politics are kinder and gentler than they are in the US). But my assumption is that any politician is primarily motivated by getting re-elected, and that they are likely to make whatever decision that they feel is best suited to that goal rather than what might be for the actual good of the people, unless those two things happily coincide. So I take everything said by the government PR machine with a giant grain of salt. But I do think that some are more skilled at nuanced spin and sticking enough to the truth that they are not shown to be outright liars, and others are....well...significantly less skilled. I also think that some openly and deliberately lie and think that 1) people will be too stupid to notice, 2) too rabid in their affiliation to care, or 3) they simply don't care about being seen as honest and trustworthy.

As an outside observer, I have been struck by how little the Republican party seems concerned with truth over the past several decades (and getting worse). "Alternate facts" seems to be the new playbook (whether it's environmental issues, legal issues, social issues, or science denying), and I suspect they are going with options 1 and 2 above.

I also think that there is a clear moral difference between lying and being wrong/mistaken.

Lying is the DELIBERATE speaking of falsehoods. Things that you know for a fact are untrue.
Mistakes are when you think what you are saying is true, but it turns out to be wrong either because you were mistaken about the facts or because things didn't play out the way that you thought they would. No-one is omniscient.

My thought about Obamacare is that Obama was shooting for the fences and hoped that something would be true that didn't turn out the way that he hoped. So IMO, this is probably more of a mistake than a lie. While it doesn't alter the outcome, it does speak to the character of the person.
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
My views are non-partisan (and keep in mind I'm Canadian, and our politics are kinder and gentler than they are in the US). But my assumption is that any politician is primarily motivated by getting re-elected, and that they are likely to make whatever decision that they feel is best suited to that goal rather than what might be for the actual good of the people, unless those two things happily coincide. So I take everything said by the government PR machine with a giant grain of salt. But I do think that some are more skilled at nuanced spin and sticking enough to the truth that they are not shown to be outright liars, and others are....well...significantly less skilled. I also think that some openly and deliberately lie and think that 1) people will be too stupid to notice, 2) too rabid in their affiliation to care, or 3) they simply don't care about being seen as honest and trustworthy.

As an outside observer, I have been struck by how little the Republican party seems concerned with truth over the past several decades (and getting worse). "Alternate facts" seems to be the new playbook (whether it's environmental issues, legal issues, social issues, or science denying), and I suspect they are going with options 1 and 2 above.

I also think that there is a clear moral difference between lying and being wrong/mistaken.

Lying is the DELIBERATE speaking of falsehoods. Things that you know for a fact are untrue.
Mistakes are when you think what you are saying is true, but it turns out to be wrong either because you were mistaken about the facts or because things didn't play out the way that you thought they would. No-one is omniscient.

My thought about Obamacare is that Obama was shooting for the fences and hoped that something would be true that didn't turn out the way that he hoped. So IMO, this is probably more of a mistake than a lie. While it doesn't alter the outcome, it does speak to the character of the person.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/statements/byruling/false/



And there are other sources as well. His biggest lie that affected many people like me was on healthcare that if you liked your plan you could keep it.

But imo I would rather have an embellisher than a clueless fool.
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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Ruby, are you trying to point out that Barack Obama lies?
I am pointing out yes according to Politifact Obama lied as there are 4 pages of them.

But I am also saying that what the other poster called throwing against the wall and hoping something sticks, I find that worse.
 

Arcadian

Ideal_Rock
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Sep 17, 2008
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6,285
To the question can we trust our government. I think it depends on whom in our government you're speaking about.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
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The question is can you trust your current government not the past one, not future ones, the current one, and the answer IMHO is "NO." Do we even need to get into an argument, - "but Obama was worse", "Hillary was worse", great I accept some of you think they were worse, and you know what, it still doesn't make Trump and his advisors any more trustworthy.....
 

OreoRosies86

Ideal_Rock
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Dec 25, 2012
Messages
2,924
The question is can you trust your current government not the past one, not future ones, the current one, and the answer IMHO is "NO." Do we even need to get into an argument, - "but Obama was worse", "Hillary was worse", great I accept some of you think they were worse, and you know what, it still doesn't make Trump and his advisors any more trustworthy.....
In their minds it's as though Obama never left office, given their inexplicable obsession with everything being somehow his fault.
 

smitcompton

Ideal_Rock
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Feb 11, 2006
Messages
2,498
Hi,
I think this might be the place to drop this nugget. Pres Trump announced to the world he was sending an armada to North Korea in a show of military might. In fact the ship was going in the opposite direction to participate in practice exercises. They were no where near North korea. The administration kept silent on this error or lie for a week. Incompetent Pres. They don't tell him anything.
Annette
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
20,310
Hi,
I think this might be the place to drop this nugget. Pres Trump announced to the world he was sending an armada to North Korea in a show of military might. In fact the ship was going in the opposite direction to participate in practice exercises. They were no where near North korea. The administration kept silent on this error or lie for a week. Incompetent Pres. They don't tell him anything.
Annette
It is far worse that that. Apparently his National Security Advisor and Secretary of Defense also did not know where the Carl Vinson was! Everyone has been counting on Trump's generals to be "the grown ups in the room"!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/world/asia/aircraft-carrier-north-korea-carl-vinson.html?_r=0

Deb/AGBF
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
The question is can you trust your current government not the past one, not future ones, the current one, and the answer IMHO is "NO." Do we even need to get into an argument, - "but Obama was worse", "Hillary was worse", great I accept some of you think they were worse, and you know what, it still doesn't make Trump and his advisors any more trustworthy.....[/QUOTE

_____________________________________________________________________________

Please read the post by CMD below. I was responding to that:


I also think that there is a clear moral difference between lying and being wrong/mistaken.

Lying is the DELIBERATE speaking of falsehoods. Things that you know for a fact are untrue.
Mistakes are when you think what you are saying is true, but it turns out to be wrong either because you were mistaken about the facts or because things didn't play out the way that you thought they would. No-one is omniscient.

My thought about Obamacare is that Obama was shooting for the fences and hoped that something would be true that didn't turn out the way that he hoped. So IMO, this is probably more of a mistake than a lie. While it doesn't alter the outcome, it does speak to the character of the person.
Click to expand...
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
Again, I am responding to CMD who said Obama did not lie but just threw things against the wall and hoped something would stick. I am not comparing who lied the most only stating that Obama did in fact lie as well.
 

AnnaH

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
1,226
The question is can you trust your current government not the past one, not future ones, the current one, and the answer IMHO is "NO." Do we even need to get into an argument, - "but Obama was worse", "Hillary was worse", great I accept some of you think they were worse, and you know what, it still doesn't make Trump and his advisors any more trustworthy.....
Eight years after the left stops blaming Bush, then complain about those who blame Obama.
If not all, certainly most politicians lie and spin. Every president makes mistakes. So far, there's not a President who was always right. There's something with which we can all agree.
Maybe Trump will improve some things, maybe not. Time will tell.
We need more true statesmen/women in government and a press with one agenda--telling the whole truth. Unlikely and unfortunate.
 

Calliecake

Ideal_Rock
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Jun 7, 2014
Messages
6,674
Ruby, You don't want a clueless fool for President? If that is the case you must be beside yourself with the clueless fool sitting in the White House now.

SMC, It is impossible for some people to see what is right in front of them.
This President is a dangerous Liar.
 

AnnaH

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
1,226
If we go by Politifact numbers, Trump has generated 7 pages of lies in less than a year. Obama generated 4 pages of lies in ~9 years.
Might have something to do with how quiet Obama was and how Trump can't shut up.
:D
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
Eight years after the left stops blaming Bush, then complain about those who blame Obama.
If not all, certainly most politicians lie and spin. Every president makes mistakes. So far, there's not a President who was always right. There's something with which we can all agree.
Maybe Trump will improve some things, maybe not. Time will tell.
We need more true statesmen/women in government and a press with one agenda--telling the whole truth. Unlikely and unfortunate.

If the republican members of congress really wanted to prove themselves after carping for 8 years that they had all the answers, they would have foregone the Easter recess, stayed in Washington DC, and really proved they were trying to accomplish something.
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
Ruby, You don't want a clueless fool for President? If that is the case you must be beside yourself with the clueless fool sitting in the White House now.

SMC, It is impossible for some people to see what is right in front of them.
This President is a dangerous Liar.
That is your interpretation of Trump, not mine, so your point is moot.
 

siamese3

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
721
Just saw that Jason Chaffetz has now said not only will he not run again, but that he may leave Congress early. Things that make you go hmmmmmm.
 
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