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Can u c the differences with a normal round diamond to a Hearts & Arrows Diamond by Naked eyes? Urge

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fingklam

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
15
Hi everyone,

We are still thinking of this diamond:
$6548 US.
Cut: Ideal & Round
Colour: G
Measurement: 6.48 x 6.53 x 3.96 mm

Carat Weight: 1.01ct
Clarity: VS2
Culet: None
Girdle: Medium
Table: 54%
Depth: 60.9%

33° crown angle, 40.8° pavilion angle
Polish & Summetry: Excellent & Excellent

However, on the GIA report, it said that it''s a Hears & Arrows Diamond. Like the topic, can you see the hearts and arrows with your naked eyes? Please reply ASAP. Thank you.

Cheers,
 

belle

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 19, 2004
Messages
10,285
Date: 11/22/2006 10:16:10 AM
Author:fingklam

However, on the GIA report, it said that it's a Hears & Arrows Diamond.
gia does not grade 'hearts & arrows' so that comment is one that was requested by the diamond dealer and should be taken with a grain of salt.

also, gia does not have an 'ideal' grade.
 

fingklam

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
15
Hi Belle,

So how should I be able to tell which grade is the "Hearts & Arrows"??
The diamond itself seems to falls into a "Ideal Cut".
Since we are buying this diamond thru the internet, I cannot see the diamond until it''s been purchase. Can anyone else here who can help me?! We need this engagement ring ASAP.

Thx
 

Regular Guy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
5,951
I largely agree with belle.

I think it can be helpful to review what''s been posted to the glossary, here...with respect to your querry.

To nail the question headlining your post...there''s some controversy. But, since you''re not deciding between one diamond NOT reported to be H&A, and one that is, I think the question is moot. The notation of H&A on the GIA certificate...where does it say it? Sometimes, we see it''s been added to the girdle, at the request of the vendor, and then it''s noted as part of the physical characteristic of the diamond. Also, although GIA doesn''t grade ideal, they do grade excellent. And, though it may fall outside that, according to HCA, it''s pretty darn good, and comparably priced, to others similarly proportioned, generally. I''m guessing pretty nice.

So, what what critical again? You may need a H&A viewer to see the H&A, per se. Seeing the benefit of it being H&A, if it is H&A, is, while less clear, is never regarded as a bad thing.

Best,
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,320
H&A can come in many levels of quality and perfection of symmetry. You can''t see this effect without a viewer although a finely cut diamond does look better to most eyes than a less well cut diamond. The H&A effect is not the difference between them however.

Once mounted in jewelry, the hearts portion is usually blocked from the view by the mounting anyway since it is seen from the pavilion. H&A at the very top level, is a good tool for symmetry accuracy of round diamonds. Below that level, it is a sales gimmick to an extent. I always figured it was a fortunate accident and good marketing. I have seen some that were sure wonderful examples and each one look excellent.
 

fingklam

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
15
First of all, thanks for all ur replies.

Hi David,

So, seen we do not have further information for the quality of H&A from the GIA report. Do you think this is rather a good of diamond?

Here''s another one we are looking at, please give us more advise.

Cut: Ideal & Round
Colour: F
Measurement: 6.46 x 6.51 x 3.96 mm

Carat Weight: 1.01ct
Clarity: VS2
Table: 58%
Depth: 61.1%

36° crown angle, 40.6° pavilion angle

Thin - Medium, Profile to actual proportion
Polish & Summetry: Very good & Excellent
Fluorescence: None

Pinpoint not shown

There''s about 6 needles, few feathers, some crystal & clouds.

It''s price at around $6600 US.

Thanks a million to you all.

Cheers,
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,581
Date: 11/22/2006 12:24:56 PM
Author: fingklam
First of all, thanks for all ur replies.

Hi David,

So, seen we do not have further information for the quality of H&A from the GIA report. Do you think this is rather a good of diamond?

Here''s another one we are looking at, please give us more advise.

Cut: Ideal & Round
Colour: F
Measurement: 6.46 x 6.51 x 3.96 mm

Carat Weight: 1.01ct
Clarity: VS2
Table: 58%
Depth: 61.1%

36° crown angle, 40.6° pavilion angle

Thin - Medium, Profile to actual proportion
Polish & Summetry: Very good & Excellent
Fluorescence: None

Pinpoint not shown

There''s about 6 needles, few feathers, some crystal & clouds.

It''s price at around $6600 US.

Thanks a million to you all.

Cheers,
Both seem to have nice proportions F.

There are hearts and arrows advocates who say they can tell the difference just by looking.
I have been specializing in well cut diamonds for many years and must have done 1000''s of side by side comparisons with clients - and I can say that from my experiance people cant pick between H&A''s and other diamonds with very good proportions.

But if the proportions of the stone are getting a little deep then small symmetry deviations will have a more deleterious effect.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
both of those stones have angles where they would benefit from the optical symmetry of h&a.
Once you hit the edges of the acceptable angles ranges it becomes more important in my opinion.
I love the looks of the arrows on a h&a diamond and wouldnt buy anything else in a larger round.
In small melee it makes less of a difference as long as they are well cut.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Wanted to add that those stones are going to have very different personalities.

The first will tend to be very bright and the second more of a fireball.
With very good or better optical symmetry both combos can be very nice.

Edit: meant to say very good or better optical symmetry.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,581
Date: 11/23/2006 12:22:43 AM
Author: BrianTheCutter

I hear what you’re saying Garry, five generations of diamond cutting, but over the last nine years there are thousands of others out there who will state otherwise. They can’t all be wrong.

Of course we all speak only from our own experiance.

I have no doubt that there are people can pick the personality of a painted diamond from a non painted.

And I know there are those who believe that top symmetry makes a diamond look better, however i agree with storm that top symmetry becomes more critical at the edge of the upper range of ''ideal'' crown and pavilion angles.

I have yet to discover a benefit for H&A''s in say Crown 34 and pavilion 40.8 to Crown 35 and pavilion 40.4 ranges (with say 54% to 57% table sizes) over diamonds with still very good symmetry that you and most others would reject for H&A''s.

I am interested to learn of any blind un magnified tests that show otherwise.

And then again, I still hold that when diamonds are dirty the proportions should be slightly shallower to yeild optimum results, and since diamonds are almost always dirty (please see this thread) - they should be cut on the slightly shallower side because:

About the only time slightly shallow diamonds are rejected is at time of purchase of engagement rings by people with excellent close up eyesight - most of the time they never get their heads so close - most of the time most of us look at diamonds casually when they catch our eyes with strong attractive flashes and shallower stones flash brighter or very firey steeper crown FIC diamonds flash more colors than the ever so slightly steeper deeper Tolkoswky proportions that you and many others seem to prefer.

But these are just my opinions, and we will keep having these deiscussions (which folks, are just that, we get along pretty well as far as South Africans and aussies go) until we have the hard facts from the master stone study when ever we gets around to it.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 11/23/2006 12:22:43 AM
Author: BrianTheCutter

I hear what you’re saying Garry, five generations of diamond cutting, but over the last nine years there are thousands of others out there who will state otherwise. They can’t all be wrong.




I agree with Brian, in the right lighting most people can pick out a h&a stone from a non-h&a.
One can debate at what level it makes a difference however.
For me the workmanship of a tight true h&a stone speaks for itself and is something I like.
I also think there is a small but noticeable performance advantage once you hit the extremes in lighting.
In the end it comes down to lighting ,lighting, lighting, lighting, cut, preference :}
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,581
Date: 11/23/2006 3:01:14 AM
Author: strmrdr

For me the workmanship of a tight true h&a stone speaks for itself and is something I like.
I have no problem with the "mind perfect" issue.

As for being able to identify a specific pattern - well, that is great if your goal is identify a "mind perfect H&A''s" (although I think I could select stones that would show better Arrows that you guys would choose over and above HEARTS & A''s stones - ones that did not have hearts).

I am only concerned with diamonds that look good! And how good they need to be to look good is the issue - perhaps Brian is discussing something else?

Date: 11/23/2006 12:22:43 AM
Author: BrianTheCutter


I hear what you’re saying Garry, five generations of diamond cutting, but over the last nine years there are thousands of others out there who will state otherwise. They can’t all be wrong.

 
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