Can A Well-Respected Appraiser Detect Ruby Treatment?

[sja1224]

We're working with a Jeweler in the LA Jewelry District to make a ruby engagement ring. Our jeweler *says* that the rubies he's been showing us are heated only, and not treated. We trust our jeweler to not be "pulling a fast one" himself, but it seems there's a certain amount of trust in the business and that he's relying on the honesty of his ruby suppliers.

We've expressed our concerns to our jeweler, and he offered to get us a certificate from a guy who seems to be a well-respected appraiser in the LA Jewelry District, once we pick out the stone we want.

My question is whether this well-respected LA appraiser will be able to detect whether the ruby has been treated, with the same accuracy/skill as a "famous" appraiser like GIA or AGL? I assume that a GIA/AGL certificate has more inherent worth, but I'm wondering whether this appraiser has the same equipment and techniques as GIA/AGL.

Thanks!

 

[mastercutgems]

Not to disrespect anyone; but even though many appraisers and graduate gemologists have very good equipment; none usually have the level of equipment the top labs do. I for one would prefer an independent report from an accredited lab like GIA and AGL for a colored gem with a value over 1000 dollars..

Just my ole opinion though.

Most Respectfully;
Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified
Supreme Master Gem Cutter
#96CGE42

 

[sja1224]

Thanks Dana for the reply. A ruby we're considering is around $3000.

By the way, there is an inclusion near the edge of stone that looks a little like a round "bubble." I know it's hard to tell without a picture, but does this type of an inclusion indicate the presence (or absence) or treatment?

 

[bcavitt]

GIA_GTL and AGL are NOT appraisers, they are laboratories that evaluate and grade gemstones. Both would be able to determine treatments and I would trust both of these labs grading certificates over anything a "respected" appraiser says. Both of these labs see thousands of stone every year and have the latest in technology in determining treatments on gemstones. I don't have that kind of trust in anyone to be able to catch all the ways that a gemstone could be treated.

Have the stone's sale conditional on a grading from GIA (they have an office in Carlsbad). Once you know what's going on you can make an intelligent buying decision.

 

[sja1224]

FWIW, here are (bad) camera pics that show the inclusions on the side that I mentioned:

 

[mastercutgems]

Once again; not to disrespect anyone; but no one worth their weight in salt would comment on a gem with just pictures. Be wise and have the gem sent to an accredited lab. You will rest much easier..

All that has been said is just for your protection and peace of mind.

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified
Supreme Master Gem Cutter
#96CGE42

 

[chrono]

One would need incredibly magnified pictures (far more than you've shown), high tech equipment, and the skill (and knowledge) to understand what the results show. I would sent the ruby to AGL over any appraiser for an in-depth confirmation of treatment.

 

[sja1224]

Thanks for all the replies. As far as quality of that ruby, what do folks think of that color and the inclusions (based on that not-so-great photo)?

 

[chrono]

It would depend on:
1. Accuracy of your picture
2. Treatment
3. Price paid

 

[sja1224]

Haven't bought it yet; just considering it. The price is ~$3000 and it's 1.45ct. It's *supposed to* be heated but not treated.

 

[normanintheskywithsapphires]

You need much more data. Without lab report spending 3k on a ruby is, no offense, reckless, unless 3 thousand is small change for you but then you woudn't be here, right?

 

[chrono]

I'm with Norman. I do not know the transparency, how well it holds its colour, whether it has fluorescence, how red it is (modifiers, tone, hue, saturation), and yes, confirmation of treatment.

 

[sja1224]

You need much more data. Without lab report spending 3k on a ruby is, no offense, reckless, unless 3 thousand is small change for you but then you woudn't be here, right?

Our jeweler said that if we like the stone, he'd be willing to send the stone to GIA, and make the sale contingent on the report coming back as no treatment (and said his supplier would un-do the sale on his end as well).

What other data is to be gained from the lab report? I'm looking at GIA ruby reports, and all they say is "Transparency: Transparent"; "Color: Red", conform it's ruby, and opine on the treatment.

I'm with Norman. I do not know the transparency, how well it holds its colour, whether it has fluorescence, how red it is (modifiers, tone, hue, saturation), and yes, confirmation of treatment.

Given that the GIA report isn't going to tell any of this except the treatment (see above), are these just subjective determinations that one makes by looking at the stone?

 

[marymm]

Have you had the opportunity to examine the ruby(ies) outside of the jewelry store lighting? In daylight, under incandescent / LED / fluorescent lighting / etc.?

As to the importance of knowing whether/kind/extent of treatment, some treatments are considered more permanent and stable, and other treatments are temporary and less stable. Knowing the kind/extent/stability of treatment will allow you to more certainly assess whether its price is reasonable and, even more so, whether the stone you favor will likely stand the test of time so that in 20 years it's condition and appearance will be largely the same as today (absent reasonable wear and tear, ha).

 

[chrono]

If you do not have the skill nor knowledge to asses the colour quality, that is what the independent appraiser is for. Note that he or she must be independent and specialize in coloured stones (not diamonds).

 

[normanintheskywithsapphires]

Again: Wouldn't there be a good consulting market for gem buyers? I'm retired, no wanna work, but somebody with the know-how, chrono, would that not be a fun job? Does it exists?

 

[sja1224]

If you do not have the skill nor knowledge to asses the colour quality, that is what the independent appraiser is for. Note that he or she must be independent and specialize in coloured stones (not diamonds).

I'm confused by this thread. Do I want a laboratory or an appraisal?

Have you had the opportunity to examine the ruby(ies) outside of the jewelry store lighting? In daylight, under incandescent / LED / fluorescent lighting / etc.?

As to the importance of knowing whether/kind/extent of treatment, some treatments are considered more permanent and stable, and other treatments are temporary and less stable. Knowing the kind/extent/stability of treatment will allow you to more certainly assess whether its price is reasonable and, even more so, whether the stone you favor will likely stand the test of time so that in 20 years it's condition and appearance will be largely the same as today (absent reasonable wear and tear, ha).

We don't want any treatment other than heating.

The jeweler doesn't have a retail storefront. His office has not so great lighting and we've looked at the stone in various locations in his office, including by the window.

 

[pinkjewel]

The lab report will tell you if the ruby is treated- but as you pointed out it will just say "red" for color, etc. An appraiser who specializes in colored stones can take that info, plus evaluate the color and quality of the stone. They both serve different purposes.

 

[chrono]

I agree with PinkJewel's explanation above.

 

[sja1224]

Thanks for all the advice. I have an important follow-up question that I just realized of:

If the ruby is supposed to be "only heated" and "no other treatments," what exactly does this mean in terms of what the lab certificate should say? Does it mean only, e.g., TE from GIA or H from GIA?

Would TE1 or worse (or H(a) or worse) be considered "treatment" or is that still just hearing? I don't want there to be any confusion with out jeweler if we buy a particular ruby contingent on the tests proving it's "only heated," and then the test results come out to show it's TE1/TE2.

I'm unclear, in layman's terms, as to what is really meant by the "residues" that cause a heated stone to be TE1/TE2/etc. instead of TE2. I've read a lot of technical info that I don't fully understand. If a heated ruby is TE1/TE2/etc. instead of TE, does that necessarily mean that a foreign substance was used to treat the ruby and/or fill cavities? Does that mean it was heated at an absurdly high temperature which caused fissures?

Thanks so much for the help.

 

[normanintheskywithsapphires]

On the websites of the labs, you will find exact definitions of what means what in their terminology. That I would trust. Some labs also do judge the color, right? Royal blue in sapphire, or pigeon blood in ruby.
If a statement begins with 'the jeweler has said....' then, with all respect, I don't read further.
Any fissure filling is no-no for most people here. I have seen big and good looking rubies for $10/ct in Bangkok, with 'natural ruby' reports but I'd rather buy synthetic.
Some are OK with heat-only, low heat perhaps, yet when something is melted and then re-instated that is still 'heat-only' but not a gem to me anymore.

 

[sja1224]

On the websites of the labs, you will find exact definitions of what means what in their terminology. That I would trust.

Yes, they have exact definitions as follows. For example, GIA:

TE = Indications of heating (no residue)

versus

TE1~TE5 = "Indications of heating with residue in fissures" [TE1/TE2 = minor residue on fissures ... TE3/4 = moderate residue in fissures ... TE5 = significant residue in fissures]

I just don't know what these definitions mean as far as whether TE1~TE5 is considered "treatment" beyond heating, or whether that's acceptable heating to most people. In other words, is TE1~TE5 an indication that the gem has been heated unreasonably, or is something like TE1/TE2 considered normal heating?

Any fissure filling is no-no for most people here.

Does this mean fissures filled with a foreign substance? Or could "heat only" include fissure filling because the material has been "melted and then re-instated" as you say?

 

[minousbijoux]

Anything other than "TE," Thermal Enhancement, is treatment with foreign substance and is what most of us here would avoid. In other words, the only thing considered "normal heating" is TE. But in fact many here with a significant amount to invest, would avoid "normal heating" as well.

 

[sja1224]

Anything other than "TE," Thermal Enhancement, is treatment with foreign substance and is what most of us here would avoid. In other words, the only thing considered "normal heating" is TE. But in fact many here with a significant amount to invest, would avoid "normal heating" as well.

Thanks. So, to clarify, "residues" refers to foreign substances?

 

[sja1224]

UPDATE: We received our GIA report, which states:

TREATMENT (Scan QR code for more information)
Heated (Minor Residues)

Does this DEFINITELY mean that the stone was treated with a foreign substance?

Our jeweler assured us that it was heated only, with no other treatments. Is he wrong?

 

[Seaglow]

It means the ruby was heated with fluxing agents such as borax.

 

[Austina]

I found this article which you might find worth a read.

http://www.professionaljeweler.com/archives/articles/1999/feb99/0299fys4.html

 

[minousbijoux]

Why don't you call GIA and ask?

 

[sja1224]

It means the ruby was heated with fluxing agents such as borax.

Just to be clear, there's no way "residues" could form with heating only (that is, heating not using any sort of a foreign substance)?

I found this article which you might find worth a read.

http://www.professionaljeweler.com/archives/articles/1999/feb99/0299fys4.html

Thanks; I found a few other helpful sources as well:

http://www.palagems.com/flux-healing/

https://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/spring-2006-identification-lead-glass-filled-rubies-mcclure

They're all technical, but I generally understand the concepts. But I'm not 100% sure if "residues" AUTOMATICALLY means that the stone was misrepresented as being heated only and no other treatments.

Why don't you call GIA and ask?

Worth a shot.

 

[normanintheskywithsapphires]

UPDATE: We received our GIA report, which states:
Does this DEFINITELY mean that the stone was treated with a foreign substance?
Our jeweler assured us that it was heated only, with no other treatments. Is he wrong?

Simple answer: yes, he is wrong, embarrassingly wrong. If he insists even after seeing the GIA result, it is borderline fraudulent to claim heat-only, right? He should know.