Calling Yssie/white gold experts - my head is done in

[oohsparkly]

I would love to hear your thoughts on what metal/alloy would work for my ring, which is being custom made. After lengthy delays I am delayed again now by trying to settle on the right metal. My initial story (warning:not short!) is here [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ph-d-in-pricescope-and-ring-teaser.173475/........']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ph-d-in-pricescope-and-ring-teaser.173475/..........[/URL].

I was inspired by Yssie's lovely unplated white gold and decided I wanted that. However when I saw an example of my jeweller's unplated 18k white gold/palladium it looked VERY dark grey to me, not a pretty color like Yssie's. I would love a creamy white gold, I don't mind a slight yellow undertone, as long as it is still fairly white against the diamonds (inc. pave) as while I love yellow gold I don't prefer it around diamonds.

What kind of metal mix can produce a creamy color? (And NOT a grey color)

I don't want nickel as I want to steer away from the potential skin irritant factor.

I did see a 9 carat white gold which I thought was pleasant (very white, no grey). My jeweller didn't like that idea as being a bit low value but I don't care about that if it looks nice. But maybe there is some practical reason again 9 kt white gold - more likely to tarnish or other disadvantages??

I was decided against platinum because from what I have seen it goes a dull grey color after a while, plus the price is a big factor.
As my ring is being hand forged I assume that it will be denser and stronger than a cast version so getting gold will not be a problem as far as strength?? I am getting the prongs of the centre diamond done in platinum though for greater security.

Can anyone suggest the right metal alloy for me? Thanks so much for any advice you are able to provide.

 

[John P]

First of all, I'd encourage you to stay away from "9k." Low karat alloys are subject to stress corrosion, especially near 10k where more than 50% of the ring weight consists of other base metals. Without greater noble metal content pieces are more likely to tarnish and/or cause allergic reactions. As a side-note, the FTC cites the minimum fineness for gold in the US as 10k (41.7%) so a 9k alloy isn't actually considered "gold" in this country.

As I'm sure you know, silver is the whitest metal, followed closely by rhodium and the common platinum alloys (see the chart below). The long-time traditional "white" choices are 14-18k white gold plated with rhodium, or a common 900-950 platinum alloy with a high-polish. Depending on wear a plated WG ring will need to be re-dipped in rhodium and a platinum ring will need to be re-polished every now and again.

We're always looking for a whiter non-plated gold alloy, even though it's a contradiction in terms because gold is...gold.

Stuller has a non-plated WG called X1 that has met with success. Palladium WG is another common option that requires no plating. Just know they don't have the high whiteness of rhodium or polished platinum. Here is a photo of YG next to rhodium-plated WG, next to Palladium WG. http://www.pricescope.com/files/images/journal/Overview_Of_Common/image002.jpg

Alloys are constantly being tweaked, from manganese additions as whitener to chromium, iron etc. Some come and go. Others stay. The problem with some "new" alloys is that they tend to be more difficult to process and can suffer cracking problems and tarnishing down the road. As a result, the number of jewelers willing to work in "newfangled" alloys is low. No problem if you have a jeweler for life who's willing to go for it and make guarantees. But if you move and need future work done on something uncommon it can be problematic.

Can anyone suggest the right metal alloy for me? Thanks so much for any advice you are able to provide.

With the above said, you're the only one who can decide what's right for you. For a piece that will last a lifetime I'll always encourage staying with a high-content noble metal. I hope this info is helpful.

 

[motownmama]

palladium comes to mind for you

 

[oohsparkly]

Thank you John and Motownmama.

John I do appreciate all the info you gave me - it kind of reassures me that there is no holy grail out there that I'm missing. It appears that the 18k gold with palladium will be best for me, unless I shell out for platinum.

The question I have though is that in the picture you posted, the palladium white gold is quite a pleasant, light color, whereas my jeweller's version of that was a definite gun metal gray.

Can you suggest a particular breakdown of metals that achieve the color in the picture? Also Yssie's rings were a nice color so it must be possible.

I will just mention also that I am in Australia, where like the UK as you would know, 9 kt is still considered gold. I actually purposely had my original wedding set done in 9 kt yellow as I preferred the lighter tone of it. They have last beautifully for 20 years but I never did anything with chemicals workwise.

Clearly this is a pretty specialist question and your input (any that of any others!) is highly appreciated. Until I get this question settled I can't get on with my dream ring which I've already waited 20 years for!!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Are you sure your jeweler wasn't showing you a palladium ring?

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI all!!
oohsparkly - one aspect that is crucial is the manner of setting you're making, and the methods used to construct it.
When we made Yssie's ring, our factory had to determine the alloy based more on practical matters ( which one could be bent into smooth curves) more than the appearance.
My feeling is that the make up of the metal is better left in the hands of the people making the ring- they should have inside knowledge.

 

[oohsparkly]

Diamondseeker - I guess I should double check that. I will also show him John's photos and ask about the different color.

Rockdiamond - Thanks for your input. I totally agree with you that I don't want to override a professional opinion about what would be best for the jeweller/ring involved. The current plan is for my jeweller to talk to his metallurgist about the possibilities but I definitely don't want him going out of his comfort zone and then my ring being the 'guinea pig'. But if I got the white gold palladium mix he is currently using I would have to rhodium plate as it is too gun metal grey for me.

May I ask you what percentage of different metals went into the metal you used for Yssie's ring? I am SUPER curious about that! As I would really rather not plate my ring.

 

[yssie]

Metal colours is one of my favourite topics! Dunno 'bout the expert bit though


I read through your other thread, can I ask which of my rings you're referring to specifically? The five-stone (DBL), threestone (WF), or one of the other rings/bands? They're all different alloys, and different colours - it's fascinating, actually!

My DBL, 18k palladium-wg, isn't creamy - it's - almost pinkish in most lights. I don't know how you'd get "creamy" without nickel - something mixed with copper, maybe, for a "pinkish creamy"?


Have you seen these threads? I did pretty long writeups, and hopefully tomorrow I will have more info on the last missing wg composition -
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-bezel-halos-wg-or-yg-and-lower-color-stones.173143/#post-3150115?hilit=favourite#p3150115']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-bezel-halos-wg-or-yg-and-lower-color-stones.173143/#post-3150115?hilit=favourite#p3150115[/URL]
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/which-metal-compliments-a-warm-stone-best.160706/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/which-metal-compliments-a-warm-stone-best.160706/[/URL]


Handforged Ni-wg is most definitely more scratch-resistant than the same alloy cast. Handforged Ni-wg can chip if you sweep it off the counter onto the bathroom tile, I have little doubt that that's a characteristic more representative of being swept off the counter onto bathroom tile than of the specific properties of the alloy in question though





A - plat (950/ru)
B - unplated 18k nickel wg from e-wb, custom piece (different manufacturer, wore it with the WF three-stone, good match in all lights)
75% Au, 15% Cu, 4.5% Zn, 4% Ni
C - unplated 18k nickel wg from e-wb, stock piece
?? TBD
D - plated wg from WF
E - 22k





B, C, A above
G - unplated 18k palladium wg from DBL



Not a good pic, but for composition reference -



A - 14k rose gold
B - unplated 18k nickel wg from WF, custom Ering
75% Au, 9.8% Cu, 9.8% Ni, 5.22% Zn
C - unplated 18k nickel wg from e-wb, custom band (wore it with the WF three-stone, good match in all lights)
75% Au, 15% Cu, 4.5% Zn, 4% Ni
D - unplated 18k nickel wg from e-wb, stock piece (a bit lighter/whiter than B/C)
?? TBD
E - plat (950/ru)
F - plated 18k wg from WF
G - sterling
H - 22k

 

[distracts]

From left-right and bottom-top here are a few white metal rings - sterling silver ring with medium wear (bottom), platinum ring with daily wear for 15 months (middle - alloy is 90 plat 10 irid), rhodium plating that is brand new (top ring).







I do not find significant differences in their whiteness but rather in their reflectivity. The more dinged up the ring gets, the less it reflects. Rhodium is very hard and resists scratching moreso than other metals do. I found my e-ring (the platinum one, maybe obviously) started to look "duller" to me around the six-month mark. Until then, it looked about the same as the silver ring. I plan to take it in to get polished roughly every year, which I don't mind doing since it needs to be checked that often anyway. I know some people take them in every six months so they never develop that patina. I prefer at least enough scratches on my ring so that it doesn't have that super-mirrory look of very freshly polished stuff though.

The "creamiest" WG alloys I have seen have all been nickel alloys. I am allergic to nickel so this has always been very disappointing to me, lol.

 

[oohsparkly]

Wow! Yssie and Distracts - your pictures are awesome and so helpful - there is one very appreciative aussie girl here - thank you!

Distracts - it seems the platinum is pretty much the same color as the rhodium plated ring - just not as reflective. I guess when the plat is newly polished it shines pretty good too though? How long does the shine last before you have to repolish?

Yssie - you are a legend i have to say. I read through most of your posts on this topic - thanks for the threads. It was your beautiful 5 stone ring I loved (the actual ring as well as the color of the metal!). Looking back again I can see it is the nickel version that I truly adore. Sadly that is NOT an option for me, tho' the color is TDF

It still appears that your white gold/ palladium ring, tho' not creamy as you say, is NOT a gun metal grey. Can you confirm this? The one I was offered definitely was. And I saw no pink in the one I was shown but I did only see it in the jewellery shop. I can see a slight pink tone in the comparison pictures - the 'G' ring in the second photo, and it may have a grey tone but at another angle it appears pretty white, in the photo anyway.

Makes me wonder if your palladium 18k white gold is a different version to mine. That is why I was interested in the exact breakdown of the different alloys for yours.

It appears that my options at the moment, unless something crops up, is either rhodium plated palladium/white gold, or platinum. I'll get a quote for platinum.

For Rockdiamond who mentioned that the kind of setting is important for what metal to use, my plans are for a slightly altered version of Frankie's ring - cut down pave halo with four pave stems holding up the halo base.

 

[0-0-0]

I don't have any experience with white gold, but I recently took some shots of my rings that may be helpful in illustrating wear on platinum.

The rings are from the same vendor, ordered at the same time with the same platinum alloy (95% platinum 5% ruthenium I think). At the time of the shoot, the engagement ring has been worn for ~14 months, stays off at home and stays on when heading out. Office work, no gym, has not been re-polished. The wedding band has been worn for ~1 week, stays on 24/7.

I find that only the bottom third of the engagement ring looks beat up. The rest looks pretty much as good as new, as does the wedding band. I don't see any color difference in the beat up parts, only that they are less reflective, and the difference is certainly visible in the pictures.

The brochure that the rings are sitting on is white.

The following 3 pictures are cropped and enlarged from the same shot:



Another angle of the engagement ring to show that the wear stops at roughly the bottom third of the shank:

 

[distracts]

Wow! Yssie and Distracts - your pictures are awesome and so helpful - there is one very appreciative aussie girl here - thank you!

Distracts - it seems the platinum is pretty much the same color as the rhodium plated ring - just not as reflective. I guess when the plat is newly polished it shines pretty good too though? How long does the shine last before you have to repolish?

...

For Rockdiamond who mentioned that the kind of setting is important for what metal to use, my plans are for a slightly altered version of Frankie's ring - cut down pave halo with four pave stems holding up the halo base.

You're welcome.

I would say the ring only stayed ultra-shiny, like rhodium-plating-shiny, for only a short while. Mine is the 90 plat/10 irid alloy though which iirc is softer and scratches more easily than the 95 plat/5 ruth alloy that thbmok's pics are of. I agree with her that the main beat-up part is the bottom bit (conveniently what is in my pictures!). I have brightcut pave that goes about halfway around, and you certainly cannot see dullness there. You can see dullness on my main prongs (which are ginormous monsters and not what is liked by most PSers, but I am not very picky about prongs at all), but they were the last thing to look dull, after about 9 months of wear. AND they haven't been treated well at all. If you want the bottom part to shine, I'd recommend polishing every 4-6 months, and being careful about wearing it when you might be grabbing things that could put nicks in it.

For the kind of ring you want, platinum is usually recommended.

 

[yssie]

thb do you have any current pics? Would be interesting to see if you wouldn't mind - I got lots with my 95/Ir ring but didn't bother with my only 95/Ru band.


oohsparkly - YW!

I would not call my palladium wg "gunmetal grey" - it is too bright white for that description, IMO, but I can't really confirm that it's *not* because I don't know what your eyes would call it, if you know what I mean? I'd call my ring "white" or "whiteish grey" that's just ever-so-slightly pink. My skin tends to bring out the pink in the metal IRL in most lights, especially if I pair it with a rose gold band. Another poster Enerchi has called her unplated Pd-wg "gunmetal grey" as well, so we could be looking at different alloys or it could be a case of people seeing the same thing differently..!

Here's a series of per-month pics documenting plat patina on my old ring (950/Ir, less scratch-resistant than 950/Ru and 900/Ir)
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/platinum-vs-white-gold.147732/#post-2668608']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/platinum-vs-white-gold.147732/#post-2668608[/URL]


I'd try to figure out two things -
- What metal colour you like best
- How important that colour is to you - is it worth it to you to search for someone you'd be comfortable working with to help you figure out how to get that colour, whether it's workable, whether it's a good fit for the design you want and the way you plan to wear it... or would you rather stick with a known entity that's easy to acquire? No wrong answer - just depends on what your priorities are. The most important thing is not to compromise on whatever is most important to you, it's basically a given that you'll regret it.

 

[0-0-0]

thb do you have any current pics? Would be interesting to see if you wouldn't mind - I got lots with my 95/Ir ring but didn't bother with my only 95/Ru band.

Of course I don't mind taking more pictures but I took this set around 2 weeks ago and I haven't noticed any additional wear. I'll post updated pictures when I start to see additional wear.

The top part of the ring gets very little wear with the alloy that I have. Other than a few tiny nicks it's nearly as good as new. That's why even with the beat up bottom I haven't bothered to get it re-polished.

The following 3 pictures are cropped and enlarged from the same shot:

 

[Mike R]

Looks like your getting great advice here!
I would like to add that I find to me the method of manufacture can also play a very large part in how the metal will look, the exact same alloy can look very different depending on how well the finished ring is polished, a not so great polish can leave the metal looking dull and slightly dark.
Did they personally make the sample ring you saw, check the inside of the ring for their hallmark, it is very common for most stores to have rings from many different manufactures who all use slightly different alloys.

I also find in most cases I can personally see the difference between a cast and handmade ring of the same exact alloy.
A cast ring will in my personal experience always have a (very) slightly softer look about it, and can in rare cases look a little darker due to super fine surface porosity that is only visible under great magnification.

It's also possible that their sample has been kicking around the store for a while, if it has been handled a lot and not had a great polish recently this could also be contributing to its darker colour.

 

[yssie]

Thanks thb! 'Course, you took the easy way out and showed us the sparkly side

Please do update as you note wear. My 950/Ru band is warped and completely patina'd but it's my workhorse and I don't exactly treat it well...



Mike - interesting, it must be a horrid casting job to yield surface porosity so pervasive that it visibly affects colour or polish! My (well) cast rings definitely scratch more easily - they get this sheen of faux-patina that makes them look "lighter" than non-cast rings - which is what you'd expect anyway.

 

[oohsparkly]

thbmok- thanks so much for those pictures! I have studied them closely and I think that kind of wear would not bother me, especially considering it is mostly on the bottom of the ring, and you can get it polished out at some point anyway.

I have now asked my jeweller for a quote for platinum, but I'm not getting too excited because an extra thousand or two is probably not going to be worth it to me at this point. The price of platinum is now actually lower than for gold but apparently the extra cost of working with it is the big factor.

Mike R - thank very much for your input too. I mentioned your comments to my jeweller and not only did he agree but he said he knows you! - Mark Williams. The sample ring he showed me was a hand forged ring made by them, and it did look to have a lovely polish on it, just that gun metal shade. He had to get it from the workshop, not the actual shop, and it didn't look to have had any handling wear on it at all - it didn't even have the stone set in it yet.

So anyway I sent him a picture from this thread to show how light a palladium/white gold ring can look and what I would like to achieve for my ring if at all possible.

One day I'll get this ring on my finger.

I think I'm the biggest headache of a customer my jeweller has ever come across. He's already done TWO (not one!) replica silver rings so he can get exactly what I want for my custom ring. Now it's this metal anxiety. I think he'll be glad to see the back of me. Except then I want another wedding band to go with my new ring - poor guy

 

[catalyst]

Another option, depending on what your jeweler provides, is a 18k white gold, but with palladium rather than nickel. Ours is still rhodium plated, however once it wears off, if we choose not to have it done again it should have a much whiter finish than a nickel based wg.

 

[Mike R]

thbmok- thanks so much for those pictures! I have studied them closely and I think that kind of wear would not bother me, especially considering it is mostly on the bottom of the ring, and you can get it polished out at some point anyway.

I have now asked my jeweller for a quote for platinum, but I'm not getting too excited because an extra thousand or two is probably not going to be worth it to me at this point. The price of platinum is now actually lower than for gold but apparently the extra cost of working with it is the big factor.

Mike R - thank very much for your input too. I mentioned your comments to my jeweller and not only did he agree but he said he knows you! - Mark Williams. The sample ring he showed me was a hand forged ring made by them, and it did look to have a lovely polish on it, just that gun metal shade. He had to get it from the workshop, not the actual shop, and it didn't look to have had any handling wear on it at all - it didn't even have the stone set in it yet.

So anyway I sent him a picture from this thread to show how light a palladium/white gold ring can look and what I would like to achieve for my ring if at all possible.

One day I'll get this ring on my finger.

I think I'm the biggest headache of a customer my jeweller has ever come across. He's already done TWO (not one!) replica silver rings so he can get exactly what I want for my custom ring. Now it's this metal anxiety. I think he'll be glad to see the back of me. Except then I want another wedding band to go with my new ring - poor guy

It sounds like you have found a very understanding jeweller, it's great that he has made you some silver samples and it's great that your ring is going to be lovingly hand forged for you..

Sorry I'm terrible with names, is your jeweller in NZ?

I get my palladium white gold from Morris and Watson (a metal supplier), it's not grey at all and polishes up really nicely! They could always get the white gold from them.

 

[oohsparkly]

Thanks Catalyst - yes that is the direction I'm heading in at the moment - palladium white gold

Mike - What a great tip! Thank you so much. Mark is in NSW in Oz. He is a very nice man, and has a wall full of national awards for his work. I probably went overboard on the headache theme though - I didn't actually ask for the replica rings to be made - both times I was very surprised. But he knows how important this ring is to me and he does take a lot of pride in his work, which is so great.

And I see that Morris and Watson is in Sydney as well, so maybe that could work out! Will definitely follow that up.

 

[Mike R]

Thanks Catalyst - yes that is the direction I'm heading in at the moment - palladium white gold

Mike - What a great tip! Thank you so much. Mark is in NSW in Oz. He is a very nice man, and has a wall full of national awards for his work. I probably went overboard on the headache theme though - I didn't actually ask for the replica rings to be made - both times I was very surprised. But he knows how important this ring is to me and he does take a lot of pride in his work, which is so great.

And I see that Morris and Watson is in Sydney as well, so maybe that could work out! Will definitely follow that up.

Glad I could be of some help.
MW do have a Sydney office, the cool thing is if you do use their white gold you will know that the gold was very ethically recovered from the beautiful South Island of New Zealand

Maybe Mark knows my Dad, or he could know of me.

Don't worry to much about being a pain, Mark wouldn't be putting the effort in unless he loved what he does and wanted you to be happy.
Good luck with your project!

 

[oohsparkly]

Well for everyone who helped me so much in this thread and for any one it may be of help to I thought I would post what I have concluded on for my dream ring. After much weighing up of the options, reading through this and other threads, calling Morris and Watson (metal supplier recommended by Mike R) and talking to my jeweller, it was time to make the big choice between platinum and white gold and I chose...... palladium!!!!

Yes I've gone for the absolute underdog and I am no risk taker and am not looking for something 'different'.

After talking to the very helpful jeweller from Morris and Watson, who carefully compared all her different alloy mixes to tell me which was the whitest, and how they wore over time, I was feeling very interested in 95% palladium. She said the Palladium was only a hair less white than the platinum but much cheaper and would be a very secure metal for diamonds. But I was still concerned about the yucky gun metal color I'd seen in a palladium sample IRL.

Then I read ONE LITTLE COMMENT by Yosef on this thread ([URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/found-a-setting-platinum-vs-palladium.57173/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/found-a-setting-platinum-vs-palladium.57173/[/URL]) that was the key for me.

It was that palladium when heated and not quenched develops a grey color. So I had this confirmed by M&W as well as my own jeweller, and we were on our way. My jeweller said he would order the whitest version of 95% palladium and that he would quench it often in the forging process so it didn't develop the gray color. I suppose he doesn't worry about the gray color when he's only going to rhodium plate a ring, but I want mine unplated.

So if anyone has any info as to why I should not go ahead with this decision please speak now or forever hold your peace

My only concern/remaining question is how palladium wears over time - there are no great answers for this on pricescope at the moment - I'm thinking I may start a thread on that now.

 

[MqLove]

This might be interesting for you - this is an image of a white gold ring (next to no wear), my palladium e-ring and a silver bangle - as you can see the palladium has gotten a bit scratched up (~4 months pretty heavy wear on the underside), but I think it's quite white, and it polishes out very well - back to mirror shiny.

ETA: Don't suppose you're in Sydney? I'm currently trying to decide who to look at for a custom reset in palladium, would love recommendations! I'm in Canberra, but figure Sydney is my best bet...

 

[oohsparkly]

That is interesting Mqlove! Thanks for the photo. The palladium ring looks a perfectly nice color. Is your white gold ring rhodium plated?

How often do you plan to get your palladium ring repolished? Does it go dull after a while or just a bit dinged up?

As far as a reset in palladium - no I'm not in Sydney so I don't have any personal recommendations. However yesterday and today I spent quite a bit of time talking to the lady who answered the phone at Morris and Watson in Sydney. She was extremely helpful and genuine I felt, giving me a heap of good answers to my questions even though she knew I was not buying anything from them. On the third call of mine (that was it, 3 calls!) when she knew I was tending strongly toward palladium she mentioned she had a friend (jeweller) who was excellent with palladium in Sydney, though I didn't get a name as I explained I already had a jeweller. I felt like I could trust her recommendation though, she seemed to know a lot about palladium from a practical point of view.

So If you want to call Morris and Watson's Sydney office (I used the normal landline not the freecall) hopefully you would get her and she could tell you the name. Unfortunately I didn't properly catch her name - it was something unusual like 'Sep' and she has a very slight American accent and is a jeweller herself. Hopefully that would be enough to identify her! All the best with your project!

 

[MqLove]

I'm pretty sure the white gold is plated, it's just a standard mall store ring, and definitely has no sign of yellow. (bought for me many years ago, but only fits on my ring finger, and never had it sized)

The palladium I think is much like platinum- it doesn't go dull, but isn't mirror shiny anymore, lots of teeny tiny scratches, but only on the underside. Im thinking a once a year (+pre wedding) polish when I get prongs checked out would be nice to get that new sparkle again, but I'd be comfortable with longer than that (although I've only had it ~10months and it got polished when I had something done, so I can't say completely).

Thanks for the help, there just seems to be so many options and little advice, so any lead is a good start!