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Calling Richard Sherwood...

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Need Help123

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
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Hi Rich,

I''ve seen you post on here before that you worked with Mr. Silverberg of Jess Jewelers. I''m all set to purchase a ring from Jess. What''s your personal opinion of the store? Also, the diamond I''m getting is not certified by GIA but has been certified by their on-site gemologist who is GIA-educated (I may be using the wrong terminology). Should I be concerned with this? I feel like I''m getting a great deal on a beautiful ring, but the fact that it is not certified by GIA themselves troubles me a bit. What''s your (and others on this board) take?
 
Hi Need Help,

I''m not Richard (he''s unique and one of a kind) but I''ll answer.

No one including GIA can "certify" a diamond but the term "certified" is

used regularly in the trade. An "in store" Graduate Gemologist (G.I.A.) can

verify diamond quality and the 4''c''s plus additional technical data if desired, but

cannot "certify" anything. You''ll be getting a diamond graded by a Graduate Gemologist (nothing more

and nothing less)

who hopefully is well skilled in diamond grading. You might ask the seller if you can have the

diamond independently appraised for quality and value with a return privilege (cash back).

Hopefully, Rich can provide additional feedback for you.

Jeff Averbook, G.G.

Graduate Gemologist (GIA)

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
 
Hi Need. Tom Silverberg of Jess Jewelers is a good man with a good rep, nice store and very fair prices. A very likable fellow, with a long history in the business himself as well as being a third generation jeweler.

As far as buying a "non-certified" diamond, you run the typical risks. If the grader grades like the GIA Gem Trade Laboratory, you might be buying a stone that has equivalent grading. If the grader has a different opinion, you might be buying a stone which is graded differently than the GIA-GTL would grade it. This is not uncommon, as even some major labs (such as EGL, IGI) often have opinions which vary from GIA-GTL grading.

You might consider getting a second opinion for peace-of-mind regarding the grading. If the grading doesn't match up, ask the appraiser if he feels the price you're paying is a fair price for what he considers it to be. If so, and you like the stone, then you're good to go.
 
Date: 11/1/2007 4:51:05 PM
Author: Modified Brilliant
Hi Need Help,

I''m not Richard (he''s unique and one of a kind) but I''ll answer.

No one including GIA can ''certify'' a diamond but the term ''certified'' is

used regularly in the trade. An ''in store'' Graduate Gemologist (G.I.A.) can

verify diamond quality and the 4''c''s plus additional technical data if desired, but

cannot ''certify'' anything. You''ll be getting a diamond graded by a Graduate Gemologist (nothing more

and nothing less)

who hopefully is well skilled in diamond grading. You might ask the seller if you can have the

diamond independently appraised for quality and value with a return privilege (cash back).

Hopefully, Rich can provide additional feedback for you.

Jeff Averbook, G.G.

Graduate Gemologist (GIA)

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
Click to expand...
Gotta respectfully disagree with you on this. Anyone can "certify" a diamond, it is a warrantee that is given by the certifyer. If I "certify" that a diamond I sell is an xyz and GIA or EGL or anyone else says it is not, then I have a problem. I believe some labs actually call their grading report a certificate, but both AGS and GIA are VERY careful NOT to. I agree with them, as it avoids expensive lawyers to defend the "certificate" if someone disagrees. To "certify" has strong legal definitions, perhaps one of our legal posters can further specify what it actually means in terms of the law.

Wink
 
Wink,

You are correct about some labs that choose to "certify".
GIA chooses not to certify..others DO choose to certify or use the term. Would still like to hear from a legal eagle. This issue gets kicked around periodically.

This was partially quoted from the GIA "copyright" page on their website...


CERTIFICATION

We have identified the following incorrect practices1) references to GIA Reports as "certificates"; and 2) the statement that students, graduates, their businesses, or particular gemstones are "certified" by GIA.



The Gemological Institute of America does not certify anyone or anything. Neither a student nor a graduate who has been awarded a certificate or diploma, nor a gem which has been graded or identified by GIA has been "certified" by GIA.




Jeff Averbook, G.G.
Graduate Gemologist (GIA)

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
 
Date: 11/1/2007 8:02:00 PM
Author: Modified Brilliant

Wink,

You are correct about some labs that choose to ''certify''.
GIA chooses not to certify..others DO choose to certify or use the term. Would still like to hear from a legal eagle. This issue gets kicked around periodically.

This was partially quoted from the GIA ''copyright'' page on their website...


CERTIFICATION


We have identified the following incorrect practices1) references to GIA Reports as ''certificates''; and 2) the statement that students, graduates, their businesses, or particular gemstones are ''certified'' by GIA.




The Gemological Institute of America does not certify anyone or anything. Neither a student nor a graduate who has been awarded a certificate or diploma, nor a gem which has been graded or identified by GIA has been ''certified'' by GIA.




Jeff Averbook, G.G.
Graduate Gemologist (GIA)

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
Click to expand...
And GIA especially emphisized it when "certifigate" was on!!!
emwink.gif
 
Okay, I'm totally baffled now by the last post! If GIA doesn't "certify" anything, then what in tarnation are their "certificates/certifications" for?!? Anyone else confuddled or is it just moi?
33.gif
 
i''m with surfgirl - confused - why then do they refer to some diamonds as "uncertified"?? e.g. oecs are many times referred to as "uncertified"
 
Date: 11/1/2007 10:05:15 PM
Author: surfgirl
Okay, I'm totally baffled now by the last post! If GIA doesn't 'certify' anything, then what in tarnation are their 'certificates/certifications' for?!? Anyone else confuddled or is it just moi?
33.gif
Click to expand...
They provide a grading report, meaning that they are describing their findings on the diamond. They stay away from calling it a certificate or certification. THe term certificate gets bandied about on a regular basis, but all of the labs will say they are grading labs that provide reports as opposed to 'certifications'

(ETA that terminology chosen presumably for legal reasons)
 
Date: 11/1/2007 10:05:15 PM
Author: surfgirl
Okay, I''m totally baffled now by the last post! If GIA doesn''t ''certify'' anything, then what in tarnation are their ''certificates/certifications'' for?!? Anyone else confuddled or is it just moi?
33.gif
Click to expand...
A gemological report on a Diamond means a professional opinion on their findings. Based on the Lab''s reputation..., you as a consumer can choose to trust their findings or not....

Anyway you look at it..., its an opinion!! Grading Diamonds is not a straight out science.
34.gif
 
Wow, I had no idea about the "report" vs. "certificate" terminology. it really makes sense though when you think about it. Why would anyone want to open themselves up to a law suit in this world where attorneys are reaching out in mass to people injured in car wrecks or who lost their shirt in bad investments?

I am confident that the store I am getting my ring from has a very good grader. However, I think for my peace of mind, I would like to take it to an indepedent appraiser. Here''s my question: the diamond has already been set in the ring. Will the appraiser be able take a look at the ring as a whole piece or will he/she have to take the diamond out of the setting, examine it and then return it to the setting?
 
Most diamonds that appraisers examine are mounted stones, and they have learned how to work around it.

A mounted appraisal is a little tougher to do, as the mounting prevents you from color grading the diamond table down (the status quo in color grading) and the mounting's metal color can sometimes influence the perception of the diamond's body color.

Additionally clarity can be tougher to grade in the instance of very high clarity stones (typically VS1 and up) which have minute inclusions located under the prong(s).

Additionally a mounting can sometimes prevent getting certain direct measurements. Total depth is a common one, because the setting prevents you from getting in there and measuring it.

I tend to characterize a loose diamond appraisal as a "100%" appraisal and the typical mounted diamond appraisal as a "93%" appraisal, just to give the client a feel for it. A bezel set diamond appraisal I might characterize as an "80%" appraisal. Those can be pretty tricky for both color and clarity analysis.

With all this said though, most appraisers have learned how to get around these obstacles pretty well, and most would prefer to do so rather than unset and reset the diamond. This entails several risks, such as possible damage to the diamond, stressing the prongs with metal fatigue, being accused of switching the diamond, etc.
 
I figured most would prefer to do it set than haveto take it out and reset it and not have to worry about damages. This particular stone is .72 ct, H, SI1 so I don''t have to worry about the problems you said involving the VS1-2''s.

By the way, I would love to get down to Sarasota to see you, but just can''t make it down there. Can you suggest someone in St. Pete who could do an appraisal for me?
 
Date: 11/2/2007 9:31:59 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood
Most diamonds that appraisers examine are mounted stones, and they have learned how to work around it.

A mounted appraisal is a little tougher to do, as the mounting prevents you from color grading the diamond table down (the status quo in color grading) and the mounting''s metal color can sometimes influence the perception of the diamond''s body color.

Additionally clarity can be tougher to grade in the instance of very high clarity stones (typically VS1 and up) which have minute inclusions located under the prong(s).

Additionally a mounting can sometimes prevent getting certain direct measurements. Total depth is a common one, because the setting prevents you from getting in there and measuring it.

I tend to characterize a loose diamond appraisal as a ''100%'' appraisal and the typical mounted diamond appraisal as a ''93%'' appraisal, just to give the client a feel for it. A bezel set diamond appraisal I might characterize as an ''80%'' appraisal. Those can be pretty tricky for both color and clarity analysis.

With all this said though, most appraisers have learned how to get around these obstacles pretty well, and most would prefer to do so rather than unset and reset the diamond. This entails several risks, such as possible damage to the diamond, stressing the prongs with metal fatigue, being accused of switching the diamond, etc.
Click to expand...
How well can cut be judged in a mounted stone?

I did an e-ring for a friend about a year and a half ago, which was an F VS2 and graded Very Good for cut by the HRD - which is their top cut grade. I forget all the percentages wtc, but it scored pretty good on the HCA and was within the GIA box.

I suggested that they got it appraised in the US for insurance purposes. The appraisal was done with the stone mounted and came back with the stone graded as F VS2 Very Good.

My reading of this would be that an american appraiser would use the term ''very good'' in a different way than the HRD is.

If so, is it possible that he was incorrect? My friend was worried because he wanted an ''ideal'' stone and I had assured him that this was the HRD equivalent.
 
Date: 11/1/2007 10:05:15 PM
Author: surfgirl
Okay, I'm totally baffled now by the last post! If GIA doesn't 'certify' anything, then what in tarnation are their 'certificates/certifications' for?!? Anyone else confuddled or is it just moi?
33.gif
Click to expand...
A grading report represents that lab's professional opinion about a stone.....an expert, highly regarded and often deferred-to professional opinion.
 
Date: 11/2/2007 11:31:58 AM
Author: Pandora II

How well can cut be judged in a mounted stone?

I did an e-ring for a friend about a year and a half ago, which was an F VS2 and graded Very Good for cut by the HRD - which is their top cut grade. I forget all the percentages wtc, but it scored pretty good on the HCA and was within the GIA box.

I suggested that they got it appraised in the US for insurance purposes. The appraisal was done with the stone mounted and came back with the stone graded as F VS2 Very Good.

My reading of this would be that an american appraiser would use the term 'very good' in a different way than the HRD is.

If so, is it possible that he was incorrect? My friend was worried because he wanted an 'ideal' stone and I had assured him that this was the HRD equivalent.
Click to expand...
Ideal scope or even better ASET can be used to determine the light performance of a mounted stone but the cut grade involves other stuff these days.
So if they want too know if it has similar light performance to an ideal cut stone it is easy too test.
That may be all your friend needs and an aset or ideal scope isnt expensive.
http://www.ideal-scope.com/http://www.ideal-scope.com
 
For those who haven''t seen it, here''s Dan Palmieri talking about certificates versus reports.

(about 4 1/2 minutes in)
 
Date: 11/2/2007 11:31:58 AM
Author: Pandora II
Date: 11/2/2007 9:31:59 AM

Author: Richard Sherwood

Most diamonds that appraisers examine are mounted stones, and they have learned how to work around it.


A mounted appraisal is a little tougher to do, as the mounting prevents you from color grading the diamond table down (the status quo in color grading) and the mounting''s metal color can sometimes influence the perception of the diamond''s body color.


Additionally clarity can be tougher to grade in the instance of very high clarity stones (typically VS1 and up) which have minute inclusions located under the prong(s).


Additionally a mounting can sometimes prevent getting certain direct measurements. Total depth is a common one, because the setting prevents you from getting in there and measuring it.


I tend to characterize a loose diamond appraisal as a ''100%'' appraisal and the typical mounted diamond appraisal as a ''93%'' appraisal, just to give the client a feel for it. A bezel set diamond appraisal I might characterize as an ''80%'' appraisal. Those can be pretty tricky for both color and clarity analysis.


With all this said though, most appraisers have learned how to get around these obstacles pretty well, and most would prefer to do so rather than unset and reset the diamond. This entails several risks, such as possible damage to the diamond, stressing the prongs with metal fatigue, being accused of switching the diamond, etc.
Click to expand...

How well can cut be judged in a mounted stone?

I did an e-ring for a friend about a year and a half ago, which was an F VS2 and graded Very Good for cut by the HRD - which is their top cut grade. I forget all the percentages wtc, but it scored pretty good on the HCA and was within the GIA box.

I suggested that they got it appraised in the US for insurance purposes. The appraisal was done with the stone mounted and came back with the stone graded as F VS2 Very Good.

My reading of this would be that an american appraiser would use the term ''very good'' in a different way than the HRD is.

If so, is it possible that he was incorrect? My friend was worried because he wanted an ''ideal'' stone and I had assured him that this was the HRD equivalent.
Click to expand...

Cut on mounted stones can usually be accurately graded, if you have the right equipment and knowledge. As Storm says, the Idealscope and/or ASET would be a big help in this respect. The Diamcalc software is very helpful as well.

Some appraisers are not knowledgeable in what constitutes an ideal cut, so there is a small possibility the appraiser didn''t pick up on it. On the other hand though, an HRD "Very Good" doesn''t necessarily mean it is equivalent to an AGS ideal.
 
Assigning a cut grade to a mounted diamond is possible, and as Richard accurately suggests..

can be performed with the right equipment and knowledge. When I attended a cut grading seminar

presented by GIA, I asked if their new cut grading system could be applied to a mounted diamond.

There was no quick "yes" or "no" response. Their answer was "probably not a good idea to cut grade a

mounted diamond" and if you do...assign a "provisional grade." Which also takes us back to the previous issue of

"very good" vs. "ideal" and why there might be a discrepancy on a mounted diamond cut grade.

Life would be easy for appraisers if we had the luxury of grading "loose" diamonds all day. The real daily

challenges involve accurately grading mounted diamonds.
2.gif



Jeff Averbook, G.G. Graduate Gemologist/Appraiser

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
 
Thanks for the replies.

At the end of the day, I got the diamond for a truly great price through a dealer in Antwerp I had worked with for several years, and the appraisal (a true one not an inflated one) came in spot on my guestimate - well above what his initial budget had been, Since he spent just over 70% of his budget, he was pretty happy.

I''d been having a few thoughts about maybe I should have spent the whole budget and looked further - but I didn''t know of PS at the time; and he had thought a custom platinum setting was incredibly expensive at $2k.

You''ve made me feel much happier with my choice.
 
Sounds like you did a good job, Pandora.

Saved the guy thousands of dollars and found him a gorgeous stone.

It doesn''t get any better than that.
 
Richard,

Can you suggest any quality independent appraisers in the Tampa/St. Pete area? Unfortunately I cannot make it down to Sarasota to see you. I''ve decided I would like to go to an appraiser just for my own peace of mind.
 
Yeah, there''s a good appraiser in St Pete, a woman, but at the moment I can''t remember her name. Let me think on it a while.
 
This her?
Cynthia Duval 751 Pinellas Bayway 813-864-4299
 
No, that's not her, although that's not to say she isn't good. Just not the one I'm thinking of.

What the heck is that girl's name?
 
Richard,

I e-mailed her and the message got bounced back. I did some digging online and found the following: JonathanShapero, Private Jeweler offers Appraisal Services for all of your Fine Jewelry in association with The Atlanta Gemological Laboratory, Sandra Barnes, Graduate Gemologist and Owner. Our affiliated independent Graduate Gemologists handle Diamonds, Precious Gems and all jewelry sent to us and return your items in ten days or less with a full appraisal certificate. Precious gemstones and metals are identified and quality-graded by senior GIA graduate gemologists/appraisers with impressive credentials and years of experience.


That store is out of Atlanta but mentions that it originated in Florida Gulf Coast so maybe Sandra is still in the area and working on a piece by piece basis with that store. I''ll try and follow-up and find her.
 
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