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Buy New Diamond For a Re-Cut?

Jambalaya

Ideal_Rock
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Oct 2, 2014
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There are a couple of threads at the moment about re-cuts, and it made me think. Does anyone ever buy a badly-cut (by PS standards) diamond and get it re-cut, as a way of obtaining a beautiful diamond at a reduced price?

For example, a three-carat ACA at WF which is approx I/Si1 costs about 35k. A quick glance at the Blue Nile inventory tells me there is a three-carat diamond with those stats, a Very Good Cut, for 19k. It's about 5 on the HCA.

Would anyone be advised to buy a diamond like this or similar, pay $350 per carat for a BGD recut, and end up with a stone of approx, say, 2.8 ctw super-deal for much less money than purchasing a 2.8 super-ideal outright?

I'm not thinking of doing this - I'm just curious as to why more people don't do it. I realize there are some issues regarding whether a diamond can be re-cut, but let's assume it's not so awful and so included that it can't.

Getting a badly-cut diamond and re-cutting seems like a cost-effective way to get a super-ideal.

Also, I wonder if WF re-cuts, or just BGD.
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Apr 22, 2004
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37,369
You have to know what you are doing.

1. The clarity has to be very clean or it's not a good candidate
2. It needs enough depth (can't do much with a shallow stone)
3. Cutting fee + less ct weight = monetary loss has to be accounted for.

What are the chances that you can find something that checks all 3 boxes? If one of them doesn't fit the box, you'll end up losing more money and why take that risk when there are plenty of well cut rounds in the market? Unless you have a very good eye and the knowledge of what makes a good candidate or not, then perhaps this makes sense but most people don't have the skill nor time to do this.
 

Jambalaya

Ideal_Rock
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I see. Thanks Chrono. Just wondered why more people don't do it, since it's potentially a route to a real sparkling honker for much less than you'd pay otherwise. Someone else also just brought up the issue of the lighter end-product being less valuable due to that weight loss. I never even thought of that! But then, I'm not much of a jewelry-seller and if you plan never to sell, I guess that value-loss doesn't matter. It wouldn't to me, anyway, since you get so much more out of the stone than you did previously, in terms of enjoyment.

I'm not in the market for spending 20k plus recut fees on a 3-carat stone, but if I were, I might well try to go the re-cut route. I'd ask here for advice on particular stones, though.

Thanks Chrono! :wavey:
 

thecat

Brilliant_Rock
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Plus if the 20k stone explodes ( or decrease in clarity like feathers) on the wheel, albeit however slim the chance, it's money down the drain. Not sure if stones are insured on the cutting wheel.

I think for a recut with not too much weight loss, it must have numbers close to ideal and those don't come significantly cheaper than ideal cut diamonds. I'm using ideal cut loosely here to refer to h&a or near h&a. Too shallow a stone results in losing a fair bit of weight to achieve near ideal recut. Too deep a stone implies its face up is smaller than one of similar carat ideal cut to begin with but at least I think it might still retain face up diameter while losing the unnecessary weight (depending on angles again of course). I stand corrected though since I'm no expert.
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
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Hi Jambalaya,

Your reasoning is based upon the following assumptions:

- GIA graded the Color correctly on the original stone, not always the case.
- GIA graded the Clarity correctly on the original stone, not always the case.
- GIA graded the Fluorescence correctly on the original stone, not always the case.

Granted, when purchasing an already finished super-ideal diamond, you run the same risks of the lab having been lenient on that stone, but in your effort, you are looking for the cheapest possible starting stone, where the seller/owner has likely accounted for the lenient grade, so you are actively increasing the odds of ending up with a leniently graded stone.

Next, you are under-estimating the weight-loss. From stones selected on existing proportion-parameters being interesting for a re-cut, going from GIA-EX to super-ideal on average costs about 7% in weight. Similar selected stones going from GIA-VG to super-ideal come with a weight-loss of 15% and more.

The likelihood of this ever being worthwhile on a consumer-level is close to zero.

Live long,
 

Jambalaya

Ideal_Rock
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Thanks for your reply, Paul. I was just idly wondering about this topic. In all probability, if I were in the market for this kind of thing I'd probably just buy the super-ideal stone already cut from BGD/WF/CBI and get an Si1, I-color as a compromise (I usually like slightly higher color and clarity but at 3 carats we have to make sacrifices!) I hadn't even thought about the GIA grades being wrong. Are they that inconsistent? Even so, surely they would only be out by one grade. In addition, I wouldn't be selling the stone so it wouldn't matter in terms of value, and I would ensure I liked its looks pre-recut, regardless of the paperwork.

My biggest concern would be the possibility of shattering on the wheel, and losing more weight than I thought, like you said.

OK, so there are good reasons why most don't go this route. Just that you see people turning up on here with badly-cut diamonds being transformed and it makes you think.
 

Jambalaya

Ideal_Rock
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Good points all, thecat. Thank you.

And now I'm going to have nightmares about owning a big diamond that shatters on the wheel!
 

queradas

Rough_Rock
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Jan 11, 2016
Messages
50
Jambalaya|1453814864|3981652 said:
There are a couple of threads at the moment about re-cuts, and it made me think. Does anyone ever buy a badly-cut (by PS standards) diamond and get it re-cut, as a way of obtaining a beautiful diamond at a reduced price?
Cutters know what they are doing, if they are still in business they know very well how to maximize the value of the rough.
With very few exceptions Paul the cutter has made it clear you can't do better than the original cutter and even if you could have when it was just rough, now its not going to be possible because you have to buy at polished diamond retail and pay a retail price for cutting.
 

queradas

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
50
telephone89|1453836589|3981848 said:
I've actually thought the same thing haha. A short while back I saw this ring:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/3-20ct-old-european-cut-champagne-diamond-solitaire#.VqfIok9Ii70

And thought wow, this could be really be beautiful with a recut.
Yes but what you probably didn't know was a 3CT Brown with I1 - I2 clarity which potentially could recut to an "Ideal" 2CT(based on depth) if it was even possible with the inclusions isn't worth $10,000 plus $1000 to recut.

Fun Fantasy not a smart purchase plan.
 

telephone89

Ideal_Rock
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Aug 29, 2014
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3,829
queradas|1453837708|3981866 said:
Yes but what you probably didn't know was a 3CT Brown with I1 - I2 clarity which potentially could recut to an "Ideal" 2CT(based on depth) if it was even possible with the inclusions isn't worth $10,000 plus $1000 to recut.

Fun Fantasy not a smart purchase plan.
I assumed the inclusions could be an issue. But it doesn't have to be recut to ideal proportions even.

It's an interesting idea in general though.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Jan 11, 2006
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queradas|1453835576|3981837 said:
Jambalaya|1453814864|3981652 said:
There are a couple of threads at the moment about re-cuts, and it made me think. Does anyone ever buy a badly-cut (by PS standards) diamond and get it re-cut, as a way of obtaining a beautiful diamond at a reduced price?
Cutters know what they are doing, if they are still in business they know very well how to maximize the value of the rough.
With very few exceptions Paul the cutter has made it clear you can't do better than the original cutter and even if you could have when it was just rough, now its not going to be possible because you have to buy at polished diamond retail and pay a retail price for cutting.
I am going to strongly disagree with the bolded. Some cutters cut to retain weight rather than to ideal cut standards, so it is POSSIBLE to increase the value of the stone by recutting to ideal and likely to improve the appearance. I happen to know for a fact that sometimes one of the vendors sources certain round brilliants to recut into a specialty cut and does not always have them cut from rough. But they know exactly the measurements that are good for a recut, too.

As consumers, we'd have to know what we were doing. We can't just randomly buy a diamond and be sure it is the best candidate for recutting. I would personally try it with a VS1 so that inclusions wouldn't be an issue, but I'd also need to know the most desirable measurements and know I was getting a great deal on the first diamond (either from an ultra low cost dealer) or second hand, family stone, etc. I can definitely see the possibility of doing this again if the right stone came along.

The one thing you need to know is that BG wisely does not guarantee H&A level for the final product. All I can say is, my personal experience with recutting was a HUGE improvement and I don't recall seeing many (or any?) people where who were dissatisfied with their results.
 

queradas

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
50
diamondseeker2006|1453838971|3981876 said:
I am going to strongly disagree with the bolded. Some cutters cut to retain weight rather than to ideal cut standards, so it is POSSIBLE to increase the value of the stone by recutting to ideal and likely to improve the appearance. I happen to know for a fact that sometimes one of the vendors sources certain round brilliants to recut into a specialty cut and does not always have them cut from rough. But they know exactly the measurements that are good for a recut, too.
No argument there, but once again they can buy wholesale and recut and you can't and most of the time its still from rough.

As consumers, we'd have to know what we were doing. We can't just randomly buy [a diamond and be sure it is the best candidate for recutting.
Well that is common sense, but I think that their is a clear lack of demonstrated knowledge and understanding of proportions for recuts that should be available to pricescope regulars. Too bad Brian doesn't post here anymore he could explain what are and aren't decent proportions for recuts.

I am not as well versed as I probably could be with respect to recuts but simply geomtry tells me a 3CT with 50% depth is not going to be a very good recut candidate unless you are okay with ending up with a much smaller stone.

I'd also need to know the most desirable measurements and know I was getting a great deal on the first diamond (either from an ultra low cost dealer) or second hand, family stone, etc. I can definitely see the possibility of doing this again if the right stone came along.
Do you know what dimensions you would be looking for?

The one thing you need to know is that BG wisely does not guarantee H&A level for the final product. All I can say is, my personal experience with recutting was a HUGE improvement and I don't recall seeing many (or any?) people where who were dissatisfied with their results.
They are two very different scenarios yours and contemplating a purchase for a recut.

Scenario 1: Take a diamond you already own and be willing to lose 20% weight and likely more than 20% value, but its all okay because you enjoy it more regardless of its value.

The only thing you would need to check especially for MRBs is if you could sell your diamond and buy your expected target and come out ahead of doing the recut or not.

Scenario 2: If you don't own a diamond yet you would have to compare 1Ct Diamond Price + Cutting Fees + Grading Fees versus a purchase of 0.8 'Ideal' or 'Near Ideal' or 'H&A' and decide which one has the lowest overall cost. Paul has already mentioned it would be very difficult to be better off going the cutting route even if the weight loss wasn't as severe as your case on going from GIA XXX to 'Superideal'

Brian knows how to compromise 'ideal proportions' versus weight and diameter loss so he will optimize it as best he can but it still doesn't mean that stones with shallow crowns are good recut candidates.
 

jerichosmom

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
240
I've had 3 family diamonds recut. Each lost about 13% of its weight. In the end, I think the appraised retail value of each stayed the same despite being better cut and losing weight.

Original 1.78 ct, F, VS2 cut down to 1.54 ct, lost .5 diameter
Original 1.78 ct I, SI1 cut down to 1.56 ct, lost .5 diameter
Original 1.21 ct, I Si2 (chip on girdle) to 1.06 ct (this one was very shallow to begin with), lost .3mm diameter.

If I ever I come across a large, cheap diamond I would consider buying it for a recut as long as the inclusions are not surface reaching. But that's just me and I would take that risk. My diamonds were all heirlooms so other than sentimentality, I had no $ vested.
 

Jambalaya

Ideal_Rock
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