Brownish tone negative in colorless diamonds?

[Siamese Kitty]

Ok, several recent color threads have got me thinking. I know the issue of diamond body color has come up before, but I can't find the thread I think I recall reading a few years back. It was discussing something along the lines of how different "tones" (for lack of a better word) were considered less valuable or less desirable than others. Could someone please speak to this issue?

Clearly, from my countless posts about colorless stones, I prefer diamonds in the D-G range. However, my SIL has a 1 ct J diamond that has me stumped. It is magnificient-full of color, ideal cut, slightly moody, and when it shows it's tint, it is BROWN. I loved it so much I ordered 1cttw J earrings a few years back. When I received them, all I saw was an unattractive yellow. I had an I ering that was glorious in low light or sunlight, but again, showed yellow when in lighting that showed its tint-office, diffused, etc.

I know this is only my personal observation, but why would brown not be one of the most desirable "tones"? If you could escape the often dreaded yellowish tint, and have a stone that looked more creamy taupe, wouldn't you want to?

I hope this isn't a silly question! Thank you for indulging me.

 

[Circe]

Ooo, good topic! If I had to wager a guess, I'd say it has to do with the perception that rarity = beauty. The majority of stones have a brown hue, and, Australia's efforts to brand "champagne" diamonds aside, I think most people still think of yellow diamonds as rare and valuable, but brown diamonds as common.

That said, though ... I have a J, too, and while I can't peg the body color for the life of me (in some lights, almost a pale mellow gold: in others, a steely grey - split the difference, and perhaps it's brownish?), I love the sheer fact of the presence of body color. I feel like it adds a little something to the visual fascination.

A recent poster bought an E with a blue hue: now that was a lovely stone! Whatever the hue, I guess I like the possibility of the unusual.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

I would disagree that the majority of stones have a brownish hue, to the contrary.

Why brownish hues are less desirable has always been a mistery to me. I have always liked them better.

Live long,

 

[Circe]

I would disagree that the majority of stones have a brownish hue, to the contrary.

Why brownish hues are less desirable has always been a mistery to me. I have always liked them better.

Live long,

Hm, that's what GIA teaches, but I'm always happy to learn more - what would you say the most common hue is?

 

[coati]

I would disagree that the majority of stones have a brownish hue, to the contrary.

Why brownish hues are less desirable has always been a mistery to me. I have always liked them better.

Live long,

Hm, that's what GIA teaches, but I'm always happy to learn more - what would you say the most common hue is?

The most common modifier in the D-Z range is yellow, but in fancy colored diamonds (beyond Z) the most common color is brown. Faint browns (K-M) can be so beautiful, and some even show a pink tinge. Highly desirable imo.

eta: The most common modifying colors are yellow, brown, and grey. Yellow is the most common modifier, because nitrogen is the most common elemental impurity in diamond, which causes yellow. Brown and Pink diamonds are thought to be caused by structural irregularities in combination with an impurity. The physical result is colored graining, which can be seen with magnification. As far as value is concerned, in fancy colored diamonds it is clear that browns are less valuable than yellows, but in near-colorless or faint color diamonds, I think value is determined by the overall color grade over the modifier. Hopefully more folks will chime in on this.

 

[Amys Bling]

I would disagree that the majority of stones have a brownish hue, to the contrary.

Why brownish hues are less desirable has always been a mistery to me. I have always liked them better.

Live long,

Hm, that's what GIA teaches, but I'm always happy to learn more - what would you say the most common hue is?

The most common modifier in the D-Z range is yellow, but in fancy colored diamonds (beyond Z) the most common color is brown. Faint browns (K-M) can be so beautiful, and some even show a pink tinge. Highly desirable imo.

very interesting.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I would disagree that the majority of stones have a brownish hue, to the contrary.

Why brownish hues are less desirable has always been a mistery to me. I have always liked them better.

Live long,

Hm, that's what GIA teaches, but I'm always happy to learn more - what would you say the most common hue is?

The most common modifier in the D-Z range is yellow, but in fancy colored diamonds (beyond Z) the most common color is brown. Faint browns (K-M) can be so beautiful, and some even show a pink tinge. Highly desirable imo.

Interesting point Erika.
I don't find that brown is the most common in Fancy colors- although brown certainly has a negative ( downward) effect on the price. That would seem to back up your statement.
My experience could easily be related to the fact that we normally deal with Israeli cutters.
Indian cutters most certainly have more browns.

I also agree with both Paul, and Erika that light brown can be gorgeous in near colorless stones

 

[coati]

I would disagree that the majority of stones have a brownish hue, to the contrary.

Why brownish hues are less desirable has always been a mistery to me. I have always liked them better.

Live long,

Hm, that's what GIA teaches, but I'm always happy to learn more - what would you say the most common hue is?

The most common modifier in the D-Z range is yellow, but in fancy colored diamonds (beyond Z) the most common color is brown. Faint browns (K-M) can be so beautiful, and some even show a pink tinge. Highly desirable imo.

Interesting point Erika.
I don't find that brown is the most common in Fancy colors- although brown certainly has a negative ( downward) effect on the price. That would seem to back up your statement.
My experience could easily be related to the fact that we normally deal with Israeli cutters.
Indian cutters most certainly have more browns.

I also agree with both Paul, and Erika that light brown can be gorgeous in near colorless stones

I added to my post above. That makes sense about your experience. Worldwide, I do think fancy browns are the most common-agree with GIA on that. In near colorless and faint, though, I think yellow is a more common modifier. I no longer work in the trade, but when I did, the majority of the stones I handled had a yellow modifier. The faint browns were always cool and interesting to me.

 

[Andelain]

I've always thought that light brown could be very pretty. I have a light brown stone that I'm fairly sure if off the alphabet and if it were yellow instead of brown would have set me back some serious $$$. But since it's brown I didn't pay much for it at all. I really like the color. It's at WF getting a new home right now.

 

[coati]

Andelain-lovely stone! What's the color grade? eta: love the soft look of the color in the second pic. How are you setting it?

 

[Andelain]

Andelain-lovely stone! What's the color grade? eta: love the soft look of the color in the second pic. How are you setting it?

This stone is a mutt, it has no pedigree. I'm guessing Z of even off into the fancies. I'm not sure what to call the color. It's a light honey-brown in many lights, sometimes showing a hint of yellow, grey or green in other lights. When I bought it, it was .99ct and very badly cut. It showed a lot more of the honey-brown and less of the other colors, but Brian Gavin recently recut it to .80 ct and AGS0.

Whiteflash is resetting it in a custom setting, but I'm keeping this one close to the vest until it's done. It's something so different I'll bet no one would guess before I spring it on PS. It's in the CAD stage now, so it won't be long.....

 

[Demon]

Andelain, I hope you're considering rose gold. I bought a small diamond with just a bit of a brown tint, not as much as yours, and it looks gorgeous in the rose gold.

 

[Andelain]

Andelain, I hope you're considering rose gold. I bought a small diamond with just a bit of a brown tint, not as much as yours, and it looks gorgeous in the rose gold.

No, it's not going to be rose, but I'll bet that would have looked great too. Something to consider for another little unemployed brown I have back in the US.....

 

[coati]

Andelain-lovely stone! What's the color grade? eta: love the soft look of the color in the second pic. How are you setting it?

This stone is a mutt, it has no pedigree. I'm guessing Z of even off into the fancies. I'm not sure what to call the color. It's a light honey-brown in many lights, sometimes showing a hint of yellow, grey or green in other lights. When I bought it, it was .99ct and very badly cut. It showed a lot more of the honey-brown and less of the other colors, but Brian Gavin recently recut it to .80 ct and AGS0.

Whiteflash is resetting it in a custom setting, but I'm keeping this one close to the vest until it's done. It's something so different I'll bet no one would guess before I spring it on PS. It's in the CAD stage now, so it won't be long.....

From the pics it looks like a very light to light brown-but we know how pics can be deceiving. It's lovely-no grade needed. Enjoy it! I second the rose gold-and since this one is not destined for that metal-I place my rg vote for your other one.

 

[Demon]

I can't wait to see this one, but trust me - you won't be disappointed with the rose!

 

[kenny]

I love brown diamonds and look forward to getting one in an emerald cut like this:

 

[Andelain]

From the pics it looks like a very light to light brown-but we know how pics can be deceiving. It's lovely-no grade needed. Enjoy it! I second the rose gold-and since this one is not destined for that metal-I place my rg vote for your other one.

True, especially when the stone changes it's little mind about what color it wants to be so often. Here it is before the recut, with a darker brown marquise I have.





Now I'm thinking about rose gold for that marquise. What does PS think?

 

[coati]

Yep rg for the marquise-and I'd set it east-west.

 

[yssie]

I would disagree that the majority of stones have a brownish hue, to the contrary.

Why brownish hues are less desirable has always been a mistery to me. I have always liked them better.

Live long,

Hm, that's what GIA teaches, but I'm always happy to learn more - what would you say the most common hue is?

The most common modifier in the D-Z range is yellow, but in fancy colored diamonds (beyond Z) the most common color is brown. Faint browns (K-M) can be so beautiful, and some even show a pink tinge. Highly desirable imo.

very interesting.

The eye does strange things. If looking for a 'face-up white' stone I would take the brown-tinted over the yellow any day as our eyes are more receptive to yellow hues better than brown.. but I also just agree that browns like Andes are lovely!

 

[Siamese Kitty]

Wow- Circe, Paul, Yssie, Andelain, Amy, Rockdiamond, Kenny, Coati-thank you all for your responses and insight!

I think this is a really interesting topic. The question of the rarity factor, or lack thereof, is a good point. I'm glad to see I'm not the only person to appreciate this hue, though. Like Yssie mentioned and based on my observations, I think a brown tint can be pleasingly deceiving in the near colorless range in terms of face-up appearance.

Hmm...could this possibly be a factor for why some people are pleased with their J's, while others aren't? Or is this reaching?

All in all, I appreciate the feedback.

Gorgeous stones, Andelain and Kenny! Kenny, your colored diamond collection is really amazing!

 

[yssie]

I've thought about that too - re near-colourless, but I think most people are scared off by notations of 'brown' on reports, so there aren't many certified brown-tinted owners out there!


My own experience - I'm very, very happy with my ring (J stones). BUT if I had chosen a white metal that highlighted the diamond tint, I think I would not be so happy. I chose a slightly creamy metal that complements the diamond colour, and makes the entire ring look like a one of a kind piece, so to speak, so there is nothing to compare it (unfavourably!) against. I do think if I had put my J in a common 6prong setting I would compare it to other rings with whiter stones in 6prong settings, and since there are so many of those I would often be unhappy that mine looked "clearly different" and "less valuable"...

So for me, the key was choosing a stone and a setting that make the ring uniquely *mine*, and removing any standards for comparison.

 

[Rockdiamond]

This is an interesting discussion!
You're very welcome SK- thanks for starting it.

About people being put off by brown....I think that folks that arer already considering "off color" diamonds are more open to differing hues.

It's interesting that GIA will note the presence of brown- yet not yellow.
I remember once a pretty white stone ( maybe G) with the brown notation.
I do remember this one.

 

[Amys Bling]

wow...a rose gold ring with brown diamond sounds great. Andelain- can't wait to see this project!

 

[davi_el_mejor]

This is an interesting discussion!
You're very welcome SK- thanks for starting it.

About people being put off by brown....I think that folks that arer already considering "off color" diamonds are more open to differing hues.

It's interesting that GIA will note the presence of brown- yet not yellow.
I remember once a pretty white stone ( maybe G) with the brown notation.
I do remember this one.

This probably has to do with what is "the norm" when people think of color grades, they assume yellow.

-AmysBling - Reader posted her brown diamond in rose gold bezel in SMTB

It should also be mentioned that blue fluor doesn't always help a brown tinted stone face up whiter (at least not in my brownish diamond). Perhaps mine is beyond the range of lettered grading but it has pretty strong fluor and still is somewhat noticeably brown next to a white diamond. The left is about a J with strong blue fluor center is the brown with strong blue fluor and the right is a H-I with no fluor. The picture was taken in direct sunlight.

The diamonds fluor shot

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Davi,

When you add blue light(fluoro) to yellow light you can get white light.
When you add blue light to brown light you do not get white light you would get some violet if they were in equal intensities.

 

[kenny]

Hi CCL.
Welcome back.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

U2 Kenny

 

[davi_el_mejor]

Davi,

When you add blue light(fluoro) to yellow light you can get white light.
When you add blue light to brown light you do not get white light you would get some violet if they were in equal intensities.

But the white light (natural sunlight) containing UV A and B doesn't effect the brown but does effect the yellow. Does this have anything to do with the nitrogen vacancies within the stone? Since nitrogen is usually the cause of yellow in diamonds and the blue fluor comes from nitrogen vacancies, would that also cause the whitening in the yellows and not the browns since the coloring agent is usually nickel or irradiation?

Please correct my understanding of fluor and the color agents if they're wrong. It's something I've been researching but don't completely understand the science behind it.

 

[yssie]

Davi,

When you add blue light(fluoro) to yellow light you can get white light.
When you add blue light to brown light you do not get white light you would get some violet if they were in equal intensities.

But the white light (natural sunlight) containing UV A and B doesn't effect the brown but does effect the yellow. Does this have anything to do with the nitrogen vacancies within the stone? Since nitrogen is usually the cause of yellow in diamonds and the blue fluor comes from nitrogen vacancies, would that also cause the whitening in the yellows and not the browns since the coloring agent is usually nickel or irradiation?

Please correct my understanding of fluor and the color agents if they're wrong. It's something I've been researching but don't completely understand the science behind it.

a tinted stone is tinted because it is absorbing a certain wavelength(s), thus any refractions are of the non-absorbed wavelengths - and any dispersions are not the full rainbow spectrum like we're used to describing the term, as they will be missing whatever component frequencies combined to make the 'white' incident light

1a (1=N exists, a=present as even-numbered "aggregate" groups atoms).
if 1aA, a pair of Ns substitutes for a pair of Cs, if 1aB a quad of Ns surrounds an 'empty' space where a C would otherwise have been present, for lack of a better description. If N3 3 Ns surrounding an 'empty' C-space - N3 centres are present in addition to 1aA & 1aB types. Sunlight contains long-wave UV (wavelength ~360nm) - N3 centre absorbs, excites, and relaxation back to ground state produces visible-wavelength emissions

1b (1=N exists, b=not aggregate but solitary atoms that replace Cs - this is also charge neutral) more solitary Ns randomly scattered through the lattice the more the structure absorbs blue and other wavelengths, the yellower/deeper it looks - more intense than the impurity-richest 1a-mix type

 

[davi_el_mejor]

Davi,

When you add blue light(fluoro) to yellow light you can get white light.
When you add blue light to brown light you do not get white light you would get some violet if they were in equal intensities.

But the white light (natural sunlight) containing UV A and B doesn't effect the brown but does effect the yellow. Does this have anything to do with the nitrogen vacancies within the stone? Since nitrogen is usually the cause of yellow in diamonds and the blue fluor comes from nitrogen vacancies, would that also cause the whitening in the yellows and not the browns since the coloring agent is usually nickel or irradiation?

Please correct my understanding of fluor and the color agents if they're wrong. It's something I've been researching but don't completely understand the science behind it.

a tinted stone is tinted because it is absorbing a certain wavelength(s), thus any refractions are of the non-absorbed wavelengths - and any dispersions are not the full rainbow spectrum like we're used to describing the term, as they will be missing whatever component frequencies combined to make the 'white' incident light

1a (1=N exists, a=present as even-numbered "aggregate" groups atoms).
if 1aA, a pair of Ns substitutes for a pair of Cs, if 1aB a quad of Ns surrounds an 'empty' space where a C would otherwise have been present, for lack of a better description. If N3 3 Ns surrounding an 'empty' C-space - N3 centres are present in addition to 1aA & 1aB types. Sunlight contains long-wave UV (wavelength ~360nm) - N3 centre absorbs, excites, and relaxation back to ground state produces visible-wavelength emissions

1b (1=N exists, b=not aggregate but solitary atoms that replace Cs - this is also charge neutral) more solitary Ns randomly scattered through the lattice the more the structure absorbs blue and other wavelengths, the yellower/deeper it looks - more intense than the impurity-richest 1a-mix type

Holy cow! It took 20 minutes and a quick look at wikipedia to refresh my memory of how a nitrogen vacant centers "work", and it totally clicked! Thank you Yssie and CCL!