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enibas

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2002
Messages
58
where can i go to learn more? or can someone help me out? what is it? how important? what does it mean? i'm WAY TOO ANAL-RETENTIVE...this site is just KILLING me!!! :appl:
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
or Superbcert.



These questions have been discussed here many times before. Your eyes should be the final judge :)
[/u][/u][/u]
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
RE: Consumer EYES!!!


Leonid....THIS IS POOR ADVICE.....


The consumer does NOT HAVE trained eyes, and as such should not the judge of what is good or isn't beyond their own personal preference, which MAY actually be wrong!


Consumers that are frustrated are just finding how much education and experience we experts do in learning the subject, and NO half baked information site will or can provide the education that consumers should rely on.

Certainly, I provide expert advice, testing and opinion about diamonds and do it for a living, but the " BE YOUR OWN GEMOLOGIST " attitude of many isn't much better than being your own attorney or your own doctor.


If a consumer expects expert advice they should find an expert that will provide unbiased information based on a high level of credentials, a vast array of lab equipment and the experience in having the knowledge of both GEMOLOGY as well as VALUATION education.

There is simply is no shortcut to this, despite consumer willingness to make purchasing decisions based on only a small fraction of the facts that are paramount to the value vs. the selling price of the diamond!

Small, seemingly unimportant, often overlooked characteristics have incredible affect on the quality grading and pricing of diamonds.

I find it amazing that so many without the proper experience and education or more than willing to provide erroneous advice to consumers. This includes YOU, as you are NOT A gemologist, but rather a computer expert.

Rockdoc

Rockdoc
 

DiehardSearcher

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2002
Messages
94
I have found this site very useful in my yet unfulfilled quest, and as such would like to comment as a layman:

..."The consumer does NOT HAVE trained eyes, and as such should not the judge of what is good or isn't beyond their own personal preference, which MAY actually be wrong!"...
--Yet at some point the consumer must choose, regardless of the expert's opinion. Not all decisions are or should be based on the purely mathematical characteristics.

..."Consumers that are frustrated are just finding how much education and experience we experts do in learning the subject, and NO half baked information site will or can provide the education that consumers should rely on."...
--I agree, though this site provides much more education than is required to buy a diamond for a good price that I will be happy with for the rest of my and my future wife's lives.

..."Certainly, I provide expert advice, testing and opinion about diamonds and do it for a living, but the " BE YOUR OWN GEMOLOGIST " attitude of many isn't much better than being your own attorney or your own doctor."...
--I do not believe buying a less-than-perfect diamond will either land me in prison or in a casket. I can be my own gemologist and make an educated decision that is both financially responsible as well as gut-feel based on the information I have available to me.

..."I find it amazing that so many without the proper experience and education or more than willing to provide erroneous advice to consumers. This includes YOU, as you are NOT A gemologist, but rather a computer expert."...
--I do not like the term expert, what categorizes one as an expert? Can you not learn from anyone? I will listen to anyone with an opinion and base my judgement accordingly. I have armed myself with enough information (from this site), that I can and have counseled friends on diamond shopping. I am no expert, but I am beneficial and not harmful.

And on my own note: The negative tone of your email does not inspire me to do business with you. Don't intend to flame you, but I would expect that you are speaking to your clientele here.
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
Leonid;

I know that you inadvertently omitted the link to our website.

www.superbcert.com

Regards,
Barry
 

StevL

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
598
I have to agree with some of what was posted above.

"The consumer does NOT HAVE trained eyes";
I agree.

"Should not the judge of what is good or isn't beyond their own personal preference";
This is where I begin to depart. The final decision is all about the consumer's personal preference. It isn't what you or I like, it isn't what anyone else likes, it is about their personal feeling of what they perceive beautiful to be (if it were others opinions I still wouldn't be married, no one would have me). If they have the knowledge and the jewelry has been honestly represented then the deciding factor should be the consumers. It shouldn't ever be swayed by an appraiser or jeweler because of their personal taste. Service, selection, and attitudes should also be weighed in making your selection.
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
Consumers: Remember that everyone has some sort of bias. Some "expert" opinions are more unbiased than others. Biased perspective can stem from something as innocent as an appraiser's training or professional opinions about new technology. This is not necessarily right or wrong.

Bias can come from having a vested interest in the product one is promoting. A seller can truly believe with all his/her heart in the product he is selling or it could just be that, in reality, the product in question is that to which the seller has access at this time. Bias could also come from some type of monetary relationship between people in or across aspects of "the business".

Do use *your* judgment and instincts when deciding which "expert" opinion you will include as you make your purchasing decision. Consider character and be cautious. Some people are simply very good salespeople and could sell anything to almost anyone, especially when they get to use sparkly sales tools and special lighting. I'm sure you get my point. In the end, go with what you like and what moves you.:)
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
----------------
On 12/3/2002 3:44:47 PM


RE: Consumer EYES!!!


Leonid....THIS IS POOR ADVICE.....


The consumer does NOT HAVE trained eyes, and as such should not the judge of what is good or isn't beyond their own personal preference, which MAY actually be wrong!

----------------


A consumer knows what he/she likes/reacts to & can afford SIGNIFICANTLY better than ANYONE not putting forth money to purchase. How in the world can one's personal preference be WRONG?

One's eye (i.e. the person who will ultimately pay for & live with such purchase) is the ONLY eyes that matters. A professional "expert" only ADVISES - such person does not DICTATE.

That said, I have advocated seeking professional advice on numerous occassions; but, I would never rely soley on an "expert" to tell me which diamond I will prefer to own & wear. Armed with knowledge presented, I will, at the end of the day, soley rely on my eyes.
 

student

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
167
Rockdoc, have you read the section of this site entitled "appraisers"?
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
----------------
On 12/3/2002 5:58:42 PM

Rockdoc, have you read the section of this site entitled "appraisers"?

----------------



Yes, I've read the appraiser section..... What is the point you're trying to make?

Rockdoc
 

Caratz

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
222
Rockdoc, I respect your opinions, and I know that you know your stuff. However, I must disagree with you here.

In this case the specific questions were (if I may paraphrase): What is the Brilliance Scope? Is it important?

In response to those two questions, I think that leonid's advice "Your eyes should be the final judge" is right on.

In the wider context of considering all of the factors that should be considered when purchasing a diamond, I wholeheartedly agree with you that "let your eyes be the judge" would be bad advice.
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
----------------
On 12/3/2002 5:22:12 PM


----------------
On 12/3/2002 3:44:47 PM


RE: Consumer EYES!!!


Leonid....THIS IS POOR ADVICE.....


The consumer does NOT HAVE trained eyes, and as such should not the judge of what is good or isn't beyond their own personal preference, which MAY actually be wrong!

----------------


A consumer knows what he/she likes/reacts to & can afford SIGNIFICANTLY better than ANYONE not putting forth money to purchase. How in the world can one's personal preference be WRONG?

One's eye (i.e. the person who will ultimately pay for & live with such purchase) is the ONLY eyes that matters. A professional "expert" only ADVISES - such person does not DICTATE.

That said, I have advocated seeking professional advice on numerous occassions; but, I would never rely soley on an "expert" to tell me which diamond I will prefer to own & wear. Armed with knowledge presented, I will, at the end of the day, soley rely on my eyes.
----------------



Perhaps you misunderstand, as I didn't word this as clearly as possible.

My point is that consumers can have a preference....and making a choice based on that preference isn't the job the expert. With my clients, I do not make the decision, but merely point out the facts and let them decide.

It is the consumer's money, and I certainly respect this, but on the other side of the coin, I also get many emails everyday from consumers who didn't get their stones checked, and then find out that the trust they put in their own eyes, was a mistake. After the purchase is too late.

Purchasing decisions, should be made with as much independent and unbiased information as possible. Fully informed decisions are the best ones. However the decision should be based on the facts, and made by the consumer.

Rockdoc
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441
----------------
Certainly, I provide expert advice, testing and opinion about diamonds and do it for a living, but the " BE YOUR OWN GEMOLOGIST " attitude of many isn't much better than being your own attorney or your own doctor.
----------------


As someone who is both an attorney and a trained gemologist, I can tell you that this comparison simply doesn't fly. Becoming a proficient attorney requires at least seven years of education and years of practice experience. One can earn a GG in as little as 6 months. While I would not suggest that someone reviewing this site is qualified to open their own diamond wholesaling business, I think there's certainly enough information to confidently buy an engagement ring, which seems to account for 95% of the traffic.
 

enibas

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2002
Messages
58
i didn't mean to start all this ruckus! :((

just a case of how curiousity killed the cat (ie =killed the fun knowledge-filled diamond chat i've been reading for hte past couple of weeks)...sorry everyone!

let's all be friends again...please? :appl:
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
----------------
On 12/3/2002 6:43:43 PM


----------------
Certainly, I provide expert advice, testing and opinion about diamonds and do it for a living, but the " BE YOUR OWN GEMOLOGIST " attitude of many isn't much better than being your own attorney or your own doctor.
----------------


As someone who is both an attorney and a trained gemologist, I can tell you that this comparison simply doesn't fly. Becoming a proficient attorney requires at least seven years of education and years of practice experience. One can earn a GG in as little as 6 months. While I would not suggest that someone reviewing this site is qualified to open their own diamond wholesaling business, I think there's certainly enough information to confidently buy an engagement ring, which seems to account for 95% of the traffic.
----------------



Dear LawGem

Just so you are informed - I am a non attorney member of the Family Law Section of the Florida Bar, and have lectured and written course material for equitable distribution subjects. I am also writing a hornbook on Fair Market Value.

Yes, I agree with you that the residence GIA course can be completed in 6 months. However, GIA instructional material is VERY LIMITED. It is the START rather than the end. Their GG courses basically teach diamond grading and gem ID, and that is about "it". Becoming really proficient, takes years of experience, plus seeing the incommon and rare specimens as well as keeping up with treatments etc.

I have been at this for 22 years, and I'm still learning..... still researching.

I certainly appreciate the work involved in becoming an attorney and passing the bar exams.

I am sure you'll agree that the GG is a scratch next to the level of education requirement to be an attorney.

I am not trying to be combative or confrontational with you, but the information posted on most websites, are sales oriented rather than being academically oriented. I used to hav3e a lot more information on my site, but got disgusted with people changing around a few words and posting my writings on their sites without acknowledgment of their source. Guess it makes them feel a little less of an expert to disclose a different source than them.

But most of what I've learned and experienced has been far removed from GIA.

Rockdoc
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Good one, Rock :)

I would agree with you if that would be the only thing people have been taught here. However, in the light of thousands of other posts and information about the diamond cut on this site, I believe the consumer should be the final judge, not an "expert" with all the modern gadgets.

By the "eyes" I also mean the complex of factors and priorities affecting one person opinion about a diamond. Price is one of them.

Diamonds are used to be a product with the prices dictated by the industry "experts". Sooner or later diamond prices will be driven by consumer demand based on the attractiveness of the diamonds to the consumers, not experts, eyes.

As Lawmax noted, different experts may have trained eyes but have different tastes/agendas/preferences as well. How can one select an expert? Shall we have another expert who can check other experts’ eyes or preferences?

You in particular have had different priorities during 3-year time I follow your posts in the internet. You have been a great promoter of EightStar and used to call its owner Richard von Sternberg Tolkowsky of the 21st century.

Then you forgot about it and started promoting Superbcert.

Yes you have trained eyes but you have your own agenda.

Using a scare tactic for self-promotion is not nice, Doc. It puts you in one row with Fred C.

And please don’t compare yourself to the real doctor.
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,518
----------------
On 12/4/2002 6:43:52 AM

Good one, Rock :)


Using a scare tactic for self-promotion is not nice, Doc. It puts you in one row with Fred C.

And please don't compare yourself to the real doctor.
----------------

Leonid,
Well done
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441
----------------
I am sure you'll agree that the GG is a scratch next to the level of education requirement to be an attorney.

I am not trying to be combative or confrontational with you, but the information posted on most websites, are sales oriented rather than being academically oriented.
----------------


Rock,

After posting that message, I began to feel that it came across far more arrogant than I intended. I didn't mean to suggest (to you or anyone else) that gemology is a grade-school level field. It isn't--I know better, firsthand. But the truth is, just as there are a lot of simple legal matters non-attorneys can handle on their own (basic chapter 7 bankruptcies and amicable, uncontested divorces are two good examples), not all diamond purchases require expert assistance from beginning to end. The sad fact is that with some diligent work, the average consumer can pick up enough knowledge to be more qualified than the average mall jewelry store employee, and be able to make a confident purchase. An independent appraisal is always a good idea, but I see that suggestion in just about every thread on this board.

Yes, a GG is only equivalent to about a semester's worth of college-level work. That was more or less my point, but it came across badly.

I agree 100% about most diamond websites being thinly disguised promotion, and I've seen a lot that are borderline fraudulent. But having hung out here for a month or so, I find this place to be very different.
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
----------------
On 12/4/2002 11:16:13 AM


----------------
I am sure you'll agree that the GG is a scratch next to the level of education requirement to be an attorney.

I am not trying to be combative or confrontational with you, but the information posted on most websites, are sales oriented rather than being academically oriented.
----------------


Rock,

After posting that message, I began to feel that it came across far more arrogant than I intended. I didn't mean to suggest (to you or anyone else) that gemology is a grade-school level field. It isn't--I know better, firsthand. But the truth is, just as there are a lot of simple legal matters non-attorneys can handle on their own (basic chapter 7 bankruptcies and amicable, uncontested divorces are two good examples), not all diamond purchases require expert assistance from beginning to end. The sad fact is that with some diligent work, the average consumer can pick up enough knowledge to be more qualified than the average mall jewelry store employee, and be able to make a confident purchase. An independent appraisal is always a good idea, but I see that suggestion in just about every thread on this board.

Yes, a GG is only equivalent to about a semester's worth of college-level work. That was more or less my point, but it came across badly.

I agree 100% about most diamond websites being thinly disguised promotion, and I've seen a lot that are borderline fraudulent. But having hung out here for a month or so, I find this place to be very different.

----------------


Are you near Florida??.. You might just want to pay me a visit in person to see firsthand, the differences between the GIA curiculum and the REAL WORLD, of analysis.


I have no problem if the consumer is properly informed to let them make purchasing decisions, and that is the way it SHOULD be. I agree with you that it doesn't take "rocket science" to eliminate frozen spit from the decent stuff, but consumers cannot separate the characeteristics in the better quality stones without more information. If a consumer is buying a 1/4 carat diamond, of course they might not want to get an expert involved, it depends on the quality that the consumer wants. Even the ideal cut H&A stones vary... in that the consumer is paying for a higher level of precise cutting, it is my opinion that they make sure they are getting what they are bargaining for.


You might want to check out the Compare the Labs page on my site. Real interesting just how much information is left off the major certs.

What type of law are you going to specialize in.

Rockdoc
 

Emerald

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 1, 2002
Messages
4
If RockDoc is a real (Rock) doc, he may be liable for malpractice. He should ,probably, get an appropriate insurance (A joke: how do you spell a doctor and lawyer? ... Malpractice)

LawGem is a Gem. He is absolutely correct that an intelligent consumer very often can do a better job than most professionals. Many individual investor beat the Wall Street Gurus in any market, Andy Grove -- not a medical doctor -- did a research about his prostate cancer and directed medical doctors how beat it, etc. Diamond selection is not awfully complicated. If one is willing to put some time learning about diamonds, one can get a great buy without an expert. One who doesn't have the time or is not interested in the subject, should pay RockDoc and get a great stone as well.

Leonid, keep on doing a great job protecting intelligent consumers. Thank you for the great site.

Emerald
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272
Hi all,

Youch! Hot in here. Lawmax I'd like to ask you a question.

You wrote: "Bias can come from having a vested interest in the product one is promoting. A seller can truly believe with all his/her heart in the product he is selling or it could just be that, in reality, the product in question is that to which the seller has access at this time."

This can certainly be true and no doubt has happened but I must ask...

Do you believe that a seller, while having access to 2 different quality super ideal cuts at the same time with different features can change his personal opinion or preference while still maintaining that both are beautiful?

The reason I ask is because I have been falsely accused in the past of changing my opinion about a product simply because I didn't have access to it when indeed those facts were false and I had full access to both and never denied the beauty of the particular product I also thought was beautiful to begin with.

Since being introduced to different types of instrumentation to analyse light return and having access to a plethora of super ideal cuts which are at my disposal, is it wrong for a person to have a change of preference?

I would fully admit that in my very first year of selling super ideal cuts I was partial to diamonds with features such as this ... http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_296ct_g_vs1_h&a.htm. Over time my personal preference has changed towards super ideals with features like this http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_01ct_e_vs2_h&a.htm but never deny the gorgeous beauty of the features like the first. This has been my consistent testimony even when my preference changed over time. I just hope no inference of me was meant in your words.

If you'd like to talk about this in email and perhaps clear some stale air concerning the real facts of what have happened with me personally regarding certain products, don't hesitate to write me lawmax.

Peace,
Rhino
 

biscuit

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
67
OK PEOPLE...

1. Diamonds are a poor investment

2. Therefore, people must buy them for other reasons

3. There are probably two main reasons...primarily because of tradition, good marketing, and group psychology. Second, the diamond is selected for its BEAUTY. Have we not learned YET that beauty is culturally relative???

Different cultures have valued different things about their gems and jewelry, and it blows my mind to think that gemmologists think of themselves as scientists or something. They are simply TRAINED SALESPEOPLE, whether they're selling the diamonds or selling services related to the *culturally relative* diamond trade.

And so a consumer gets a diamond that was "misgraded" or whatever...if they chose the rock based on aesthetic appeal, what does it matter??? They've chosen to go with convention and spend a pile of cash on an object that has little value apart from it's beauty. But if they were intelligent enough to view the rock, consider it beautiful and deem it worthwhile to spend the cash then MORE POWER TO THEM.

If this is not an investment in the typical Wall Street sense of the term, then why get all anal about diamond attributes that are unseen if the ULTIMATE standard by which the rock is judged is AESTHETIC BEAUTY???? It IS in the EYES!!!! IN THE EYES!!!

300 years ago people didn't give a flying sh*t about one thing today's gemmologists know. And in another 300 years, it will all have been forgotten for the next best thing.
Let's not get an overinflated view of ourselves people...

:angryfire:
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,308
He he he eh
Biscuit :)

Diamonds are an investment in love and life style.

A happy wife is a happy life :)
Diamonds make many wives happy - not all, but many.

Everyone knows Tiffany over charge, but a Tiffany box tells a woman her man thinks she is worth more. It is silly, but it is true!
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Rhino:
Youch! Hot in here.
Its gettin hot in here (so hot)
So take off all your clothes

Hot In Herre - Nelly

Sorry guys - can't resist :bigsmile:
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
----------------
On 12/5/2002 8:13:08 AM

Rhino:
Youch! Hot in here.
Its gettin hot in here (so hot)
So take off all your clothes

Hot In Herre - Nelly

Sorry guys - can't resist :bigsmile:
----------------


ROFL! What is this? What makes you think I'm wearing clothes now? ;-)
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
----------------
On 12/5/2002 3:05:34 AM

Hi all,

Youch! Hot in here. Lawmax I'd like to ask you a question.

You wrote: "Bias can come from having a vested interest in the product one is promoting. A seller can truly believe with all his/her heart in the product he is selling or it could just be that, in reality, the product in question is that to which the seller has access at this time."

This can certainly be true and no doubt has happened but I must ask...

Do you believe that a seller, while having access to 2 different quality super ideal cuts at the same time with different features can change his personal opinion or preference while still maintaining that both are beautiful?

The reason I ask is because I have been falsely accused in the past of changing my opinion about a product simply because I didn't have access to it when indeed those facts were false and I had full access to both and never denied the beauty of the particular product I also thought was beautiful to begin with.

Since being introduced to different types of instrumentation to analyse light return and having access to a plethora of super ideal cuts which are at my disposal, is it wrong for a person to have a change of preference?

I would fully admit that in my very first year of selling super ideal cuts I was partial to diamonds with features such as this ... http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_296ct_g_vs1_h&a.htm. Over time my personal preference has changed towards super ideals with features like this http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_01ct_e_vs2_h&a.htm but never deny the gorgeous beauty of the features like the first. This has been my consistent testimony even when my preference changed over time. I just hope no inference of me was meant in your words.

If you'd like to talk about this in email and perhaps clear some stale air concerning the real facts of what have happened with me personally regarding certain products, don't hesitate to write me lawmax.

Peace,
Rhino




----------------


You thought I was talking about *you*? Hmmmmm...
 

Rook

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
294
Just a few quick responces.

First, it seems to me that people are arguing two different points. Leo seems to be suggesting, and I agree, that only a consumer can decide what diamond they like. Consumers can actual differentiate between a pretty diamond and an ugly diamond. Keep in mind each consumers have different oppinions of "pretty" and "ugly" I know that consumers are fully capable of finding a diamond they love and are happy with, with out the expert advise and knowledge offered here. My parents, my girlfriends parents, three of my brothers and sisters, and my girlfriends brother have all managed to find absolutely beautiful diamonds that they love and enjoy, and would never trade in for anything, without any expert help.

Rock, seems to be arguing a different point, and I agree with him as well. Although consumers are fully capable of selecting diamonds they love, they are not necessarily able to determine if that diamond is worth the price they paid, has any inherant flaws, or even is a real diamond for that matter. I am sure more than one of my family members were taken for a ride when buying their diamonds, and some probable have diamonds that are to deep and poorly cut.

Is not the purpose of all these gadgets,(i.e. bs, ideal-scope, sarin ect) to help consumers make a decision of their own?

In my search for a high quality pear, I have been consistantly told to not look only at the numbers, and that I will have to view the diamond my self to determine its beauty. I have also been told to have it independantly appraised to insure the diamond is what the vendor says it is.

If I have missrepresent your oppinions I am sorry.

Second, many people here like to point out those who are not independant either because they sell services, diamonds ect. I would like to point out that not being independant does not mean that person will give faulty or fraudulent advise. It is very difficult to find anyone who is independant. It is for consumers to decide who's advise they respect more, independant or not.

Lastly, I think some of us are getting grumpy and maybe we all need a short nap or a break from debating these issues on pricescope.

Just my thoughts.
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
----------------
On 12/5/2002 9:38:30 AM

----------------
ROFL! What is this?
----------------
Chorus from Nelly song... I thought you knew :)



----------------


I'm just not that hip! LOL Talk to me in a few years when I have a teenager in my house.:)
[/u]
 
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