Bought the e-ring--how did I do?

[tguy2012]

Long time lurker--second time poster. I want to thank the community for all the great advice, especially those who replied to my previous (and only other) post.

So--I decided that it would be too much of a burden for me to buy a rock online. I really needed to have the stone right in front of me when I bought it--I feel like I would have endlessly bought and returned diamonds online until I found the perfect one. Ironically, I only saw the diamond I just bought from a local jeweler for the first time tonight.

First off, the jeweler I bought from is a reputable business that is family owned and operated, and has been serving the community for about 40 years. I trust that there was no shadiness going on.

Second off, the diamond I bought was graded by EGL-International. Before the flames come in, hear me out. The jeweler was very up-front about the looser grading standards over GIA (which I had exclusively been considering previously).

Here are the specs:
Shape and Carat: Round 1.80ct
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Cut: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None

I was pleasantly surprised when I saw this diamond in person. It was eye-clean and it danced. HCA < 1. Light performance was rated in the top 50% of "Excellent" in Brightness, Fire and Scintillation. Just to be conservative, when negotiating, I assumed the color and clarity were off by one grade for the worse, so let's say H/SI1. But I put it up side-by-side with a GIA E color, and I barely noticed a difference in various types of light. All the stones I saw looked yellowish in the LED lighting, but appeared white in the fluorescent lights.

I'm having it mounted in a Tacori setting (I decided to spend a little more on the setting and less on the diamond than I originally planned). Any Tacori authorized seller is not allowed to sell less than MSRP, although the jewelers will work with you more when you buy the whole ring from them, so take that for what it's worth. The setting I bought has an MSRP of $2870.

I bought the whole ring for $15000, out the door. Depending on how you split it up, that means I spent somewhere between $12130 and $13500 (assuming I paid half MSRP for the setting) for just the stone.

Part of me feels like I got a really good deal. On the other hand, part of me feels like I rushed into the purchase and I missed something really important. What is wrong with EGL-International? I can still return it with no penalty (at least I think). I'm also considering having it independently graded after I get the ring, or is it too late after it's mounted?

I'd like to hear thoughts from the community.

Thanks in advance.

 

[04diamond<3]

Do you have the report? Any pictures? Any other information on the stone? Like, depth %, table %, crown and pavillion angles?

 

[tguy2012]

Table width: 56%
Total depth: 62.7%
Crown Height: 16%
Pavillion Height: 42%

 

[04diamond<3]

Table width: 56%
Total depth: 62.7%
Crown Height: 16%
Pavillion Height: 42%

Well, it scored a .9 on the HCA which is great! It is a bit deep so will face up smaller than it should. But it should be a good performer. Do you have any pictures or an idealscope image?

 

[tguy2012]

Can't post a scope at the moment. I'm really starting to get nervous, I can't help to feel like I was taken--any experience with EGL-International anyone can share?

 

[04diamond<3]

No reason to freak out!!! The numbers look good and it scored well, but in order for us to tell you how well you did, and idealscope would help is all. I'm a fan of EGL, others on here aren't...but it's all up to you!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Can't post a scope at the moment. I'm really starting to get nervous, I can't help to feel like I was taken--any experience with EGL-International anyone can share?

For comparison ...here is a top cut H VS2 H&A stone.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.721-H-VS2-Round-Diamond-AGS-104064191017#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/3/

 

[Dancing Fire]

Part of me feels like I got a really good deal. On the other hand, part of me feels like I rushed into the purchase and I missed something really important. What is wrong with EGL-International? I can still return it with no penalty (at least I think). I'm also considering having it independently graded after I get the ring, or is it too late after it's mounted?

I'd like to hear thoughts from the community.

Thanks in advance.

Their grading can be way off...

 

[tguy2012]

So should I get a GIA report before it's mounted?

 

[gregchang35]

get the GIA certified BEFORE it is set. GIA will only grade LOOSE stones. If it is set, they will ask for you to unset it for it to be graded.

good luck!

 

[CharmyPoo]

Just be prepared that it is a K SI2. EGL-USA is far better at only 1-2 grades off on color and usually spot on clarity. EGL-International you are looking at 3-4+ color grades off and around 2+ clarity grades off ... but you never know you might get lucky. This means your diamond is likely worth around $8000 - $12,000 for online prices.

 

[hearts-arrows_girl]

It sounds really nice. If you love it, that's all that matters. Congrats, can't wait to see pics of it set.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I was probably half asleep when I wrote the other post - really bad sentences.

My point is that EGL-International is a bit of a crap shoot in that the grading is all over the place. It is in general far softer than GIA, EGL-USA and AGS. You may have gotten lucky but I haven't seen any examples of where it is close or just 1 grade off.

I would say that EGL-USA is pretty good. I have been sending my old stones to both EGL-USA and GIA as a personal experiment to see what I get back in terms of color/clarity. I don't compare the cut components.

This is a great study that I love. I wish they would refresh or add to it.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond-grading/clarity-and-color

 

[lknvrb4]

If it looked good and you are happy with it then don't worry who graded it. I am sure she will love it!

 

[CharmyPoo]

I have a different viewpoint. The poster is asking how did he do and that he felt he got a really good deal. Given that he may be able to return to the diamond, I don't see why we shouldn't discuss who graded it and the value of the diamond he bought. The assumption that it would be at most 1 grade off is not an accurate assumption and I believe most regulars here know that EGL-International is far off. Stones are often not sent to GIA or AGS for a reason.

In terms of pricing, we cannot do a fully accurate benchmark as we don't know the true grading of this stone unless it is sent to GIA or using one of the trusted appraisers here. I do know that when I do a search using the PS tool I am finding better prices although not better by a signifcant amount.

$10,855 for EGL-Interational, 1.85ct, G, VS2, EX, EX, HCA 0.9
http://www.solomonbrothers.com/DiamondDetail.aspx?sku=6685YY88&affiliate=9318613A-AD0C-4530-A456-0409DFEFB8DE &utm_source=PriceScope

$11,144 for EGL-Interational, 1.83ct, G, VS2, EX, EX, HCA 1.4
http://www.solomonbrothers.com/DiamondDetail.aspx?sku=6685YY7H&affiliate=9318613A-AD0C-4530-A456-0409DFEFB8DE &utm_source=PriceScope

$11,383 for EGL-Interational, 1.83ct, G, VS2, EX, EX, HCA 0.9
http://www.solomonbrothers.com/DiamondDetail.aspx?sku=6685YY6H&affiliate=9318613A-AD0C-4530-A456-0409DFEFB8DE &utm_source=PriceScope

$12634 for EGL-Israel, 1.82ct, G, VS2, EX, EX, Can't calculate HCA
http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=15247011&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps

$12634 for EGL-Israel, 1.83ct, G, VS2, EX, EX, Claimed H&A, Can't calculate HCA
http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=15128711&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps

 

[tguy2012]

Update:

After a little more research and talking with the jeweler, I sucessfully negotiated down to $11,500 for just the diamond (the setting is out of the equation at this point). The jeweler told me though that at this price, the sale is final (he's only making about $500 on the sale, and frankly, I believe him). They normally have a much more relaxed return policy.

I'm officially buying it tonight, so I have a few hours to back out. I'm posting the certificate for you to see--since the sale is final there's really no point in getting it GIA-certified after-the-fact; all it could do is upset me.

What does everyone think?

 

[JulieN]

Edit: I did HCA wrong, HCA gives it a thick girdle warning, if I did it right.

Meh, I see above the CH is 16 and not 14.

 

[tguy2012]

Edit: I did HCA wrong, HCA gives it a thick girdle warning, if I did it right.

I got a 0.9 when I tried it.

 

[Laila619]

Edit: I did HCA wrong, HCA gives it a thick girdle warning, if I did it right.

This is what I got:

Light Return Excellent
Fire Excellent
Scintillation Excellent
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 0.9 - Excellent
within FIC range

Make sure to change to percentages for crown and pav.

 

[JulieN]

I see it is in the FIC range, which would explain the slightly reduced spread.

 

[yssie]

Well, since this is RT and you asked for our thoughts, here are mine: hours before you shell out 15k is NOT the time to play at ostrich.

Logic and experience suggest that this is by no means a "great" deal, or one in which you come out "ahead" in terms of goods/services for the price - unless you're immediate family or a celebrity, you get exactly what you pay for.

1. It's priced like a well-cut GIA J/K SI.
2. Percentages are less accurate than angles, and the measurements on the report are averaged around eight sections of stone and then rounded to 1%. If you play with the GIA Facetware tool (http://facetware.gia.edu/) you'll get a better idea of the range of angles that may round to a given percentage. It is not small.
3. Final sale. FINAL SALE. FINAL. SALE. You are willingly locking yourself into a stone of unknown objective worth. AT BEST it is a well-cut GIA-worthy J/K SI. It COULD be a GIA-worthy L/M I1 of mediocre cut quality, for which you would be massively overpaying. The problem with EGL-I is that they're inconsistently inconsistent - you don't know what you're buying, and in this sale you leave yourself no recourse should you decide to find out and wind up disappointed.

For goodness sake don't rush this!!!!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Update:

After a little more research and talking with the jeweler, I sucessfully negotiated down to $11,500 for just the diamond (the setting is out of the equation at this point). The jeweler told me though that at this price, the sale is final (he's only making about $500 on the sale, and frankly, I believe him). They normally have a much more relaxed return policy.

I'm officially buying it tonight, so I have a few hours to back out. I'm posting the certificate for you to see--since the sale is final there's really no point in getting it GIA-certified after-the-fact; all it could do is upset me.

What does everyone think?

At this point i don't think it matters what we think. You already had made up your mind.

 

[ame]

If you are having second thoughts about it, I would not buy it, REGARDLESS of your negotiated price with this guy. Especially now that the words FINAL SALE were thrown out. You're likely NOT getting a good deal because you don't know what you're really getting for that price, sure it appears well cut, but what IS it? What color? What clarity? You don't know, and neither does this guy. I don't know why you're buying offline vs online, not my business, but I think you'll get your moneys worth and a good stone for your money if you start over and let us help you from a vendor here.

 

[tguy2012]

Well, since this is RT and you asked for our thoughts, here are mine: hours before you shell out 15k is NOT the time to play at ostrich.

Logic and experience suggest that this is by no means a "great" deal, or one in which you come out "ahead" in terms of goods/services for the price - unless you're immediate family or a celebrity, you get exactly what you pay for.

1. It's priced like a well-cut GIA J/K SI.
2. Percentages are less accurate than angles, and the measurements on the report are averaged around eight sections of stone and then rounded to 1%. If you play with the GIA Facetware tool (http://facetware.gia.edu/) you'll get a better idea of the range of angles that may round to a given percentage. It is not small.
3. Final sale. FINAL SALE. FINAL. SALE. You are willingly locking yourself into a stone of unknown objective worth. AT BEST it is a well-cut GIA-worthy J/K SI. It COULD be a GIA-worthy L/M I1 of mediocre cut quality, for which you would be massively overpaying. The problem with EGL-I is that they're inconsistently inconsistent - you don't know what you're buying, and in this sale you leave yourself no recourse should you decide to find out and wind up disappointed.

For goodness sake don't rush this!!!!

OK--I don't have to rush it. But I still need to move forward--I've been shopping for a ring off and on for three years (yes--that long). I'm looking for some advice from more experienced folks on how to proceed, based on the following facts:

- The diamond is $11500, not $15k
- I've seen the diamond in person. It eye-clean--so I think it's nearly impossible for it to be an I1 or lower. The color is harder to detect--I suppose it could be an L/M, but I compared it to a GIA F, and couldn't tell a difference. I'm not an expert by any means though.
- The diamond sparkles. Many others on this board have suggested not to shop on HCA score alone, but rather to use it to pre-screen only--so I'm not sure if accuracy of the angles matters too much.

I'll be the first to admit I've responded like I've made up my mind, so I guess I'm looking for someone to chime in with a variable that I hadn't considered. Should I bring an independent appraiser with me? Is there anything else I can do?

 

[hearts-arrows_girl]

Sounds like you have chosen your stone. The only thing I would absolutely NOT accept is the "FINAL SALE". I've had many diamonds, and found that with some, once I was wearing it for a few days, it didn't sparkle or I just didn't like how it looked. I would tell the Jewelry salesman that you need at least a 10-day return policy, preferably 30-day. No Return policy is not good. Level with him, tell him it's a deal breaker, I am sure he wants the sale and will work with you. Probably ALL sales people would LOVE to not have return policies. It makes their life easier by locking in the sale, but smart consumers won't stand for that. (What does his $500 profit have to do with a return period, anyway) Good luck with your purchase, it does sound like a nice stone for you.

 

[tguy2012]

Sounds like you have chosen your stone. The only thing I would absolutely NOT accept is the "FINAL SALE". I've had many diamonds, and found that with some, once I was wearing it for a few days, it didn't sparkle or I just didn't like how it looked. I would tell the Jewelry salesman that you need at least a 10-day return policy, preferably 30-day. No Return policy is not good. Level with him, tell him it's a deal breaker, I am sure he wants the sale and will work with you. Probably ALL sales people would LOVE to not have return policies. It makes their life easier by locking in the sale, but smart consumers won't stand for that. (What does his $500 profit have to do with a return period, anyway) Good luck with your purchase, it does sound like a nice stone for you.

You know what--this is great advice. I can be firm on this point--I'm buying the setting from him after all too. I'll do that, thanks.

 

[hearts-arrows_girl]

That stone is a substantial size and will look amazing. Which Tacori setting did you get? Good luck with your negotiations. Can't wait to see the finished product. Take a picture of the setting when you go back in to talk with him.

 

[tguy2012]

Here's the update:

I got the jeweler to agree to a 5-day return period. I examined the stone again, and this time used some different techniques I picked up on this board within the last few days to compare color. Night and day. I compared it to a GIA I and it looked darker. I'm guessing now that it's a J/K. I guess the owner originally thought I was just jerking him around, but when he saw what I saw, he laid off on what I perceived to be high-pressure tactics. Whether this was planned from the beginning still remains unknown. I still believe I'm paying only $500 above his bottom line, so I have no intention to renegotiate--either I keep the stone or I don't.

Now that I've seen it with my own eyes, I can definitely appreciate the concerns about EGL-I that a lot of people seem to have. I decided to take advantage of the 5-day return period, and bought the stone with the intention of bringing it to a local grader/appraiser (I won't have enough time to send it to GIA). I still like the way the stone looks--nothing changes that. But there's no shortage of diamonds, and I'm not emotionally attached to this one by any means--I'm looking for the best value and if I can get apples-for-apples with a GIA cert for less money, so be it.

So any recommendations on how to find and choose a trusted local grader/appraiser?

Also, it's more than likely this one's going back, and depending on the grading results, I might choose to stick to GIA or AGL exclusively. Any help or feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

 

[JulieN]

https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers

If it comes back K or I1, return it. If it comes back J SI2, return it. An I SI or J SI1+ would be ok for the price, without knowing any more.

 

[yssie]

Here's the update:

I got the jeweler to agree to a 5-day return period. I examined the stone again, and this time used some different techniques I picked up on this board within the last few days to compare color. Night and day. I compared it to a GIA I and it looked darker. I'm guessing now that it's a J/K. I guess the owner originally thought I was just jerking him around, but when he saw what I saw, he laid off on what I perceived to be high-pressure tactics. Whether this was planned from the beginning still remains unknown. I still believe I'm paying only $500 above his bottom line, so I have no intention to renegotiate--either I keep the stone or I don't.

Now that I've seen it with my own eyes, I can definitely appreciate the concerns about EGL-I that a lot of people seem to have. I decided to take advantage of the 5-day return period, and bought the stone with the intention of bringing it to a local grader/appraiser (I won't have enough time to send it to GIA). I still like the way the stone looks--nothing changes that. But there's no shortage of diamonds, and I'm not emotionally attached to this one by any means--I'm looking for the best value and if I can get apples-for-apples with a GIA cert for less money, so be it.

So any recommendations on how to find and choose a trusted local grader/appraiser?

Also, it's more than likely this one's going back, and depending on the grading results, I might choose to stick to GIA or AGL exclusively. Any help or feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

The stone is loose, right?

You can find a list of appraisers in your area here: https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers
Warning though: that list isn't a list of "PSer-vetted" appraisers or anything - it just lists appraisers by location. You'll need to do your own homework unless you're lucky enough to be local to one of the board experts and get some of his/her time on such short notice - Neil Beaty, Dave Atlas, Rich Sherwood, etc.
Appraisals:
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond_appraisers_why_you_need_one_and_what_expect
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/%E2%80%9Cappraise_appraiser%E2%80%9D_help_consumers
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/what_independent_appraisal_and_benefit_securing_one


Re. the bolded - I am confident that that is a safe assumption: we consumers never benefit from less-than-complete information from less-than-reliable authorities. Apples-to-apples is obviously impossible by definition unless both stones have reports from the same lab, but an independent appraisal will tell you what you need to know for the purposes of this discussion..