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Blue nuance

Alan86

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
1
Hello,

First time diamond shopping and trying to find my way through it!

I've actually already purchased a stone and setting through James Allen, thought I had done my research and found a good stone. It wasn't until after that I noticed the blue nuance comment on the cert. Now comparing the stone with others, I can actually see the blue tint to it. Wondering on folks opinion on how this would look in real life? I've found another stone, dimensions almost identical, with no visual or mention of blue nuance on the cert. Would it be worthwhile to change? (slightly larger and more expensive).

Current stone:



Other option:



Thank you in advance!
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
3,978
Apparently it is possible for lab grown diamonds to have the faintest “blue hue”. They are still graded as “colourless” with a notation of “blue nuance”.
This trait is seen by many as desirable and somewhat intriguing as the undertone in most diamonds is to the yellowish / brownish/ greyish tint.
I wouldn’t think it a reason to not like the diamond, James Allen does have a return policy so if you don’t like it in person, send it back.
 

Lessics

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
279
I would order the blue nuance and then check it out in different lighting situations maybe you could even upload some videos here.

I would love to order a lab grown with blue nuance to check it out. Unfortunately I live in Europe and a return would be a huge hassle if I came to the conclusion I don’t prefer the blue.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,069
Apparently it is possible for lab grown diamonds to have the faintest “blue hue”. They are still graded as “colourless” with a notation of “blue nuance”.
This trait is seen by many as desirable and somewhat intriguing as the undertone in most diamonds is to the yellowish / brownish/ greyish tint.
I wouldn’t think it a reason to not like the diamond, James Allen does have a return policy so if you don’t like it in person, send it back.
I am confused how a stone can be graded a colour but also have blue nuance - I think someone posted a J with blue nuance the other day!

I know @Ada Diamonds CEO specifically state they exclude blue nuance stones.

I'd quite like to see one, and would probably try and get one if/when I am in the position to buy something shiny!
 

OcnGypZ

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
293
There was something posted here on PS - not quite sure which forum. But they were called - if I remember correctly - Super D. Reminds me a bit of printer paper. There's white - then there is Super White which has a blue cast to it but it still white.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,069
There was something posted here on PS - not quite sure which forum. But they were called - if I remember correctly - Super D. Reminds me a bit of printer paper. There's white - then there is Super White which has a blue cast to it but it still white.
John Pollard has mentioned them a few times but can't give more details due to confidentiality / NDAs! Booo! lol
 

Ada Diamonds CEO

Rough_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 8, 2020
Messages
43
That G color is awful. I would NEVER offer that to my clientele. That F is decent, but the camera is not square on the diamond so it's tough to say for sure on the quality. Looks like a CVD stone from the video.

A few things about blue nuance:
  1. It's rarely disclosed on the grading certificate, as the HPHT growers have aggressively pushed to not have it mentioned.
  2. Yes, it's obvious, even to the untrained eye. Get ready for questions of "why does it look blue"?
  3. The stone will also glow a chalky orange & blue in the dark after exposure sunlight (or UV light).
  4. Blue nuance is not a binary, as it's due to boron defects in the diamond. With FTIR analysis of the diamond you can detect the amplitude of the spike at 2800 cm -1 to reveal the boron concentration.
  5. Blue nuance will likely reduce the potential resale value of the diamond in the years ahead, especially that G color.
Lastly, through a combination of malice and incompetence, there is very little correct information in the market about blue nuance, and the average salesperson has zero training on the topic.

All the best with your search!
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,069
That G color is awful. I would NEVER offer that to my clientele. That F is decent, but the camera is not square on the diamond so it's tough to say for sure on the quality. Looks like a CVD stone from the video.

A few things about blue nuance:
  1. It's rarely disclosed on the grading certificate, as the HPHT growers have aggressively pushed to not have it mentioned.
  2. Yes, it's obvious, even to the untrained eye. Get ready for questions of "why does it look blue"?
  3. The stone will also glow a chalky orange & blue in the dark after exposure sunlight (or UV light).
  4. Blue nuance is not a binary, as it's due to boron defects in the diamond. With FTIR analysis of the diamond you can detect the amplitude of the spike at 2800 cm -1 to reveal the boron concentration.
  5. Blue nuance will likely reduce the potential resale value of the diamond in the years ahead, especially that G color.
Lastly, through a combination of malice and incompetence, there is very little correct information in the market about blue nuance, and the average salesperson has zero training on the topic.

All the best with your search!
'Awful'? That's a bit strong.

I totally respect your position WRT your stock preferences, but 'awful'?


Is it not true that personal taste dictates whether one prefers yellow or brown or grey undertones within a Mined, alphabet-colour stone?

And it would therefore be a logical extension to conclude that some people might actually prefer a blue undertone/nuance within an MMD stone?

And, perhaps, seek out phosphorescence?


I would tend to agree that very little has been written about blue nuances (from what little I've seen) but in the same way that MMDs can be framed as 'cool achievements' or 'fake!!!!1!11', blue nuance could also be framed from opposite viewpoints. It is just a property of a given stone - arguably it is not inherently 'bad', it is just that consumers need to be aware of it alongside all the other considerations one must look at when choosing a stone.

Personally speaking, I thought the G looked decent - nice cut and good clarity, with crisp faceting. A tint of blue? yes, but that would surely help offset any tint from the G grading?
 

Ada Diamonds CEO

Rough_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 8, 2020
Messages
43
A tint of blue? yes, but that would surely help offset any tint from the G grading?
The G grading is from the boron substitutional defects in the diamond, it's not an offset to a nitrogen defects (and related yellow/brown tint).

To be crystal clear - I LOVE blue lab diamonds. I chose Fancy Light Blue lab diamonds for my wife's engagement ring (which we bought from PSer):

What's awful is undisclosed blue nuanced lab diamonds being sold to unaware customers. It's awful that James Allen will list blue diamonds such as that G color diamond, refuse to list the certificate that indicates it's blue, sometimes cover up the notes section of the cert that says it has blue nuance, and even lie to the client via chat:

13:06
hi - I'm confused. Why dies this diamond look blue?
*does?
13:07
It doesn't appear to be blue, that is most likely the lighting in the video
13:08
are all the videos the same equipment?
13:08
some look yellow and some look blue but they're the same color grade
13:09
They can have rarely slightly different lighting, but there are always variances even within color grades.
13:09
do you know anything about hpht diamonds?
13:10
That is just the method used to grow many lab diamonds
13:11
can i please see the certificate for this diamond?
13:12
I just sent that to your email
13:12
thank you!
13:13
to [email address redacted]? I don't see it yet
13:13
It may have gone to your spam
13:15
sorry I still don't have it
are you able to send a link in the chat? or show on the screen?
13:15
Unfortunately not
I just sent it again
13:16
I still don't understand why this diamond looks turquiose
13:18
I apologize, there is nothing that stands out to me that would give it that appearance
13:18
okay, I have the certificate
it says 'blue nuance' on it
what does that mean?
13:21
That basically means that instead of having the most common yellow, green or brown undertone to the color, it is blue
13:21
wait, then why did you say it was not blue?
and that it was just the video lighting?
13:21
I did not see the comment on the report.
This is extremely uncommon
13:21
but it's clearly blue when you look at it
and I'm seeing a lot of diamonds in my search that look blue
13:22
It is more common in lab diamonds, as they are not exposed to the same chemicals as when formed in the earth that would normally make them yellow
13:23
so this diamond was exposed to chemicals?
is it safe?
13:23
All diamonds are exposed to checmicals.
When they are being formed in the earth or in a lab they are exposed to all types of raw elements.
13:24
ah, okay. so what chemical makes this diamond and other lab diamonds blue?
13:25
Boron.
13:26
so how can I tell if a synthetic diamond has been exposed to boron?
and does that make the diamond change color over time?
13:27
Lab diamonds are not synthetic. There is not a specific way to tell, that is one of many elements diamonds can be exposed to when forming, it's not really a relevant characteristic in a diamond. No diamond will ever change color.
13:30
will this diamond glow in the dark?
13:31
No it doesn't have any fluorescence.
13:32
that's not what I asked - will it phosphoresce?
13:32
That is fluorescence.
Diamonds do not have phosphorescence, they can sometimes glow under long wave UV light if they have strong fluorescence.
This diamond does not have any so it will not glow.
13:36
If there's anything else we can do to assist you, please feel free to chat back in and let us know. Have a wonderful rest of your day!
13:36
Kendall P has closed the chat. To continue chatting with a customer service representative, please type your message here.

I have screenshots of this chat if anyone needs proof. Only editing is redacting my email address.
 

Lessics

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
279
The G grading is from the boron substitutional defects in the diamond, it's not an offset to a nitrogen defects (and related yellow/brown tint).

To be crystal clear - I LOVE blue lab diamonds. I chose Fancy Light Blue lab diamonds for my wife's engagement ring (which we bought from PSer):

What's awful is undisclosed blue nuanced lab diamonds being sold to unaware customers. It's awful that James Allen will list blue diamonds such as that G color diamond, refuse to list the certificate that indicates it's blue, sometimes cover up the notes section of the cert that says it has blue nuance, and even lie to the client via chat:

13:06
hi - I'm confused. Why dies this diamond look blue?
*does?
13:07
It doesn't appear to be blue, that is most likely the lighting in the video
13:08
are all the videos the same equipment?
13:08
some look yellow and some look blue but they're the same color grade
13:09
They can have rarely slightly different lighting, but there are always variances even within color grades.
13:09
do you know anything about hpht diamonds?
13:10
That is just the method used to grow many lab diamonds
13:11
can i please see the certificate for this diamond?
13:12
I just sent that to your email
13:12
thank you!
13:13
to [email address redacted]? I don't see it yet
13:13
It may have gone to your spam
13:15
sorry I still don't have it
are you able to send a link in the chat? or show on the screen?
13:15
Unfortunately not
I just sent it again
13:16
I still don't understand why this diamond looks turquiose
13:18
I apologize, there is nothing that stands out to me that would give it that appearance
13:18
okay, I have the certificate
it says 'blue nuance' on it
what does that mean?
13:21
That basically means that instead of having the most common yellow, green or brown undertone to the color, it is blue
13:21
wait, then why did you say it was not blue?
and that it was just the video lighting?
13:21
I did not see the comment on the report.
This is extremely uncommon
13:21
but it's clearly blue when you look at it
and I'm seeing a lot of diamonds in my search that look blue
13:22
It is more common in lab diamonds, as they are not exposed to the same chemicals as when formed in the earth that would normally make them yellow
13:23
so this diamond was exposed to chemicals?
is it safe?
13:23
All diamonds are exposed to checmicals.
When they are being formed in the earth or in a lab they are exposed to all types of raw elements.
13:24
ah, okay. so what chemical makes this diamond and other lab diamonds blue?
13:25
Boron.
13:26
so how can I tell if a synthetic diamond has been exposed to boron?
and does that make the diamond change color over time?
13:27
Lab diamonds are not synthetic. There is not a specific way to tell, that is one of many elements diamonds can be exposed to when forming, it's not really a relevant characteristic in a diamond. No diamond will ever change color.
13:30
will this diamond glow in the dark?
13:31
No it doesn't have any fluorescence.
13:32
that's not what I asked - will it phosphoresce?
13:32
That is fluorescence.
Diamonds do not have phosphorescence, they can sometimes glow under long wave UV light if they have strong fluorescence.
This diamond does not have any so it will not glow.
13:36
If there's anything else we can do to assist you, please feel free to chat back in and let us know. Have a wonderful rest of your day!
13:36
Kendall P has closed the chat. To continue chatting with a customer service representative, please type your message here.

I have screenshots of this chat if anyone needs proof. Only editing is redacting my email address.
I love your dedication to the truth! Unfortunately no news would run a story on this, in fear of being sued by James Allen!
 

MelloYello8

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2018
Messages
192
To be crystal clear - I LOVE blue lab diamonds. I chose Fancy Light Blue lab diamonds for my wife's engagement ring (which we bought from PSer):
I love your story. We were engaged in 2007 and had similar reasons to look at sapphires and created diamonds, but also had a difficult time finding vendors. Ultimately we went with a blue solitaire from GreenKarat because they made jewelry using Chatham stones and also recycled gold so we could get nickel free white gold using palladium. They even offered to collect small carbon offset fees for the manufacturing of their jewelry. GK did custom work too but it was out of budget. At that time I think DNEA was already around, but had a limited inventory and it seemed the major players were Chatham and Takara.

While the proliferation of vendors and labs does bring the prices down, I’m concerned that the diamonds now have less transparency about where they were made. Are you able to give your customers details about the provenance of their lab diamonds or is that also difficult for sellers to track?
 

Ada Diamonds CEO

Rough_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 8, 2020
Messages
43
I love your story. We were engaged in 2007 and had similar reasons to look at sapphires and created diamonds, but also had a difficult time finding vendors.
Thank you for the kind words. Luckily, Eric from D.NEA was willing to sell us loose lab diamonds and our local jeweler in SF was willing to work with them.

Are you able to give your customers details about the provenance of their lab diamonds or is that also difficult for sellers to track?
For the majority of our diamonds, yes.

For a variety of reasons, we work as close to the grower as possible, so we can say with certainty where a stone was grown. I've also traveled around the world to vet the production facilities of our largest suppliers.

Also, today the industry is small enough that we can typically make an educated guess as to the producer of a rough diamond based on a few chemical and optical properties of the crystal - just as a sommelier can tell a left bank from a right bank Bordeaux in a blind test.
 

MakingTheGrade

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
10,972
Yeah my experience with the chat folk on JA was less than impressive. They either didn’t understand or were intentionally trying not to answer my questions. I ended up have to be very direct and clear a few times to get the info I wanted. And I agree that redacting the comments sections on gia reports seems at best silly and creating so much work for no reason, and at worst intentionally trying to limit information. I find the practice over all kind of weird.
 

elle_chris

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 19, 2004
Messages
3,153
Apparently it is possible for lab grown diamonds to have the faintest “blue hue”. They are still graded as “colourless” with a notation of “blue nuance”.
This trait is seen by many as desirable and somewhat intriguing as the undertone in most diamonds is to the yellowish / brownish/ greyish tint.
I wouldn’t think it a reason to not like the diamond, James Allen does have a return policy so if you don’t like it in person, send it back.
Don't know how accurate this is, but I remember reading that GIA won't grade "blue nuance" diamonds on a D-Z scale. I think they grade them however they grade colored diamonds (faint blue or whatnot).

If this is true, why is the rule different for lab created and IGI reports? Is it a colorless stone, or a faint blue?
 

CBPearllover

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
49
Does it bother anyone else these IGI reports list the table % and stone dimensions, but not total depth? Am I just missing it? I also don't see crown or pavillion angle, so you can't run the stones through an HCA calculator? Seems like you have to take extra steps and bug customer service, just to get a partial lab report. No inclusion plot either, that would really turn me off to purchasing with them :confused2:
 

Ada Diamonds CEO

Rough_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 8, 2020
Messages
43
Don't know how accurate this is, but I remember reading that GIA won't grade "blue nuance" diamonds on a D-Z scale. I think they grade them however they grade colored diamonds (faint blue or whatnot).

If this is true, why is the rule different for lab created and IGI reports? Is it a colorless stone, or a faint blue?
This is incorrect. GIA will grade any lab diamond you submit for on the D-Z scale. The graders are not told the diamond is lab grown and it is run through the exact same color grading process.

They then remove the specific letter grade and instead print DEF (Colorless) or GHIJ (Near Colorless) on the report.

Now, you can submit a lab diamond to GIA for a fancy color grading report. We've done this for a few blue and gray lab diamonds.

Here's GIA's offerings:

 
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