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Blue Fluorescence in Diamonds

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strmrdr

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Date: 6/17/2009 2:34:36 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Date: 6/17/2009 2:29:26 AM
Storm!!!!

US govt got us into the mess we are in back in the 1930's.

And sorry, but there is life outside USA.
EU would be a much better target to get to implement a standard than the US.
Call it unification of diamond standards and it might have a pretty good chance.

Using EU anti-trust laws would be better also, more teeth.
Which is why AMD is going after Intel in the UE and not the US.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 6/17/2009 2:38:19 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Date: 6/17/2009 2:33:04 AM

Author: strmrdr


Date: 6/17/2009 2:15:35 AM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

It seems to me the only answer will come from digital color grading done face up.

Only if the current color and pricing system is tossed out and replaced.

Upgrading stones under the current system is criminal.
Who said anything about only upgrading stones. What about the huge # that would fall because of bad proportions and symmetry?


One thing is for sure however, that if color was done face up then there would be a new business opportunity to RE-cut and polish a huge number of existing stones out there! And that would make me very very happy!

question..
Take a diamond that grades G face down and E face up how would you price it using today''s rap categories?
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Since the grade is G, it will be priced as a G. As a relatively expensive G, though, since it is probably a good cut compared to the average cut-quality.

Compare that to a G facing up like a G. It will also be priced as a G, but cheaper than the other one, because the cut is obviously less good.

That is, if we take the cause for the difference being only in the cut, and not because of errors in grading, or a high G versus a low G, and so on.

So, in the current situation, the lower-cut G seems less expensive than the better G. Many consumers will buy the cheaper G, because a G is a G, isn''t it?

With also a face-up-grade, it would at least be clear that the G with face-up colour E is cheaper than the F with face-up colour F.

Now, if this means more demand for the stones with better face-up-colours and because of that their prices slightly going up, that is not the fault of any supplier. It is the market finding a new equilibrium.

I do wonder however about how to set a standard for face-up colour-grading, and I also doubt the accuracy of digital colour-grading as well as the exact predictive ability of Diamcalc. Still probably better than the current system.

Live long,
 

oldminer

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question..
Take a diamond that grades G face down and E face up how would you price it using today''s rap categories?

Karl; the above is what I''d term a naive question, at best. It would be an extremely rare, outlier case it it existed. The market would, of course, deal with such a diamond by taking advantage of the fact that it looks like an E color, but a perfected system that would be put into use probably will have some controls programmed into it to mitigate what might otherwise seem like an "error". Maybe such a strange diamond would not get an E grade, but an F. We can''t know before the rules and programs are made, reviewed and accepted. This is far from a slam dunk or an easy task.

Privces change daily and for every diamond. There is no problem in the market floating to a new level of daily efficiency and ought to be no real problem of floating to a new level of long term efficiency with a truly honest system. Rapaport may have some short term problems configuring his "sheet", but he is a very astute man who will "figure it out" before most anyone else does. He probably already has an approach for many contingencies we have yet to discuss. Surely, he and his business model is not anything WE need to worry about. He is very self sufficient.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 6/17/2009 9:15:42 AM
Author: oldminer
question..

Take a diamond that grades G face down and E face up how would you price it using today''s rap categories?


Karl; the above is what I''d term a naive question, at best. It would be an extremely rare, outlier case it it existed. The market would, of course, deal with such a diamond by taking advantage of the fact that it looks like an E color, but a perfected system that would be put into use probably will have some controls programmed into it to mitigate what might otherwise seem like an ''error''. Maybe such a strange diamond would not get an E grade, but an F. We can''t know before the rules and programs are made, reviewed and accepted. This is far from a slam dunk or an easy task.


Privces change daily and for every diamond. There is no problem in the market floating to a new level of daily efficiency and ought to be no real problem of floating to a new level of long term efficiency with a truly honest system. Rapaport may have some short term problems configuring his ''sheet'', but he is a very astute man who will ''figure it out'' before most anyone else does. He probably already has an approach for many contingencies we have yet to discuss. Surely, he and his business model is not anything WE need to worry about. He is very self sufficient.

That sounds like having to change the current system to me.
The problem is some people will try and charge the current E price and that is not good for consumers. It does not have the rarity color status to be priced that high.

The only way to do it is to change the entire system over at once and regrade all the diamonds in the pipeline.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 6/17/2009 9:12:36 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

With also a face-up-grade, it would at least be clear that the G with face-up colour E is cheaper than the F with face-up colour F.


Now, if this means more demand for the stones with better face-up-colours and because of that their prices slightly going up, that is not the fault of any supplier. It is the market finding a new equilibrium.

Live long,

I don''t see how it is good for consumers to pay a color premium as well as a cut premium and it will be abused.
Just make it clear that color is material body color and let it go at that.
Otherwise redo the entire system with entirely new grades not using D-Z
 

adamasgem

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Guys.. Face up color is a function of the cutters art AND the cut style
True body color is a related to the purity of the diamonds matrix, the lack of contaminents, mostly Nitrogen, a long held TRUE rarity issue.

Face up color is much more subjective, in my opinion, and will vary with both the lighting color temerature AND lighting envirionment (angles of incidence), much more than the current comparative method.

It would turn into a greater bastardization of color grading, much like we see in fancy color diamonds, as an example "lucky vivids" in radiant cuts, where one cuts to concentrate the color.
 

Paul-Antwerp

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If the current cut-premiums were high enough, more cutters would be cutting for high cut-quality. As it is, the majority is still cutting for weight and/or for reaching the minimum-threshold of a cut-grade while maximizing weight.

The main reason why there is some production of high cut-quality, is because it goes together with creative marketing, distribution and other efficiencies that overcome the lack of a sufficient cut-premium.

Any system that would change demand in such a way that high cut-quality becomes more popular will increase the cut-premium but also, it will make other cutters adapt to cutting for quality. In the end, there will be equilibrium, most probably at a higher premium than the current cut-premium.

One could deduct that current pricing for high cut-quality is at a discount to future pricing. I would consider this the benefit for the consumers, who now take the time to educate themselves, before the rest of the world does.

Live long,
 

adamasgem

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Date: 6/17/2009 10:23:18 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
If the current cut-premiums were high enough, more cutters would be cutting for high cut-quality. As it is, the majority is still cutting for weight and/or for reaching the minimum-threshold of a cut-grade while maximizing weight.
Paul, you are 100% correct. The problem is, is there are too many schlock(sp?) merchants out there.
As well a certain labs who bastardize any real objective criteria for cut grading.
 

oldminer

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I don't want to oversimplify, but it is my feeling that the market responds mostly to what people are willing to pay more for. If a new system happens someday, the diamonds which look most vivid in fancy colors and diamonds which look most colorless in the near colorless range will continue to be the top "quality" choice for most people who can afford to buy what they want without regard to cost or who are willing to sacrifice weight, clarity and cut for color features. Color may be their last compromise. We rarely criticize movement from D color to F or G for most people. We are not talking of greater changes in color or values than within this range regardless of a new system.

The theoretical diamond which has a G body color and an F color face up poses no unusual problem for valuation or the market. Neither does a G body color diamond which faces up G, H or even I color. The one which faces up best will have an advantage in logical value over all the others. Make your own intrepretation from Rapaport as do all diamond dealers right now. The same applies to a fancy yellow body color which faces light fancy, fancy or vivid. Vivid has the logical edge on value. Rap is no help here at all. Those who deal in fancy colors already know all about face-up grading. It works well for them. A diamond which grades F face-up is worth more if it is a F body color than if it is a G or H body color under a face-up system. The same logic will apply as it does today, but we'll do the steps in a different order.

Dealers are smart, consumers are getting more self informed and I don't see any huge shake-up in the existing system financially. We have not been cutting, buying or appraising with our eyes closed to the many nuances which have a drastic effect on value that Rapaport has never reported on at all. I am fearful for dealers and cutters who may have bankers who are growing increasingly skeptical about where the diamond business is headed. A smart system will serve all of us better while avoiding ruination of the financial system which is fragile enough.

I doubt anyone who is seriously in the diamond business will buy diamonds without looking at them carefully noting their body color and their visible face-up color. No matter what the system, I expect the logic of what creates value in diamonds is not going to be drastically altered.

The dishonesty of some marketing and some labs will become more and more apparent to an increasing number of retailers and consumers. This will lead to a greater change in selling than any scientific change in grading. The honest guys have been valuing diamonds about right for a long time. A better system will potentially give more credence to those who deserve to be recognized for their long struggle against the current.
 

diagem

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Date: 6/17/2009 12:01:27 PM
Author: oldminer
I don''t want to oversimplify, but it is my feeling that the market responds mostly to what people are willing to pay more for. If a new system happens someday, the diamonds which look most vivid in fancy colors and diamonds which look most colorless in the near colorless range will continue to be the top ''quality'' choice for most people who can afford to buy what they want without regard to cost or who are willing to sacrifice weight, clarity and cut for color features. Color may be their last compromise. We rarely criticize movement from D color to F or G for most people. We are not talking of greater changes in color or values than within this range regardless of a new system.

The theoretical diamond which has a G body color and an F color face up poses no unusual problem for valuation or the market. Neither does a G body color diamond which faces up G, H or even I color. The one which faces up best will have an advantage in logical value over all the others. Make your own intrepretation from Rapaport as do all diamond dealers right now. The same applies to a fancy yellow body color which faces light fancy, fancy or vivid. Vivid has the logical edge on value. Rap is no help here at all. Those who deal in fancy colors already know all about face-up grading. It works well for them. A diamond which grades F face-up is worth more if it is a F body color than if it is a G or H body color under a face-up system. The same logic will apply as it does today, but we''ll do the steps in a different order.

Dealers are smart, consumers are getting more self informed and I don''t see any huge shake-up in the existing system financially. We have not been cutting, buying or appraising with our eyes closed to the many nuances which have a drastic effect on value that Rapaport has never reported on at all. I am fearful for dealers and cutters who may have bankers who are growing increasingly skeptical about where the diamond business is headed. A smart system will serve all of us better while avoiding ruination of the financial system which is fragile enough.

I doubt anyone who is seriously in the diamond business will buy diamonds without looking at them carefully noting their body color and their visible face-up color. No matter what the system, I expect the logic of what creates value in diamonds is not going to be drastically altered.

The dishonesty of some marketing and some labs will become more and more apparent to an increasing number of retailers and consumers. This will lead to a greater change in selling than any scientific change in grading. The honest guys have been valuing diamonds about right for a long time. A better system will potentially give more credence to those who deserve to be recognized for their long struggle against the current.
Dave, vivid as the actual Diamond or paper that accompanies it?
 

adamasgem

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Date: 6/17/2009 1:49:12 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 6/17/2009 12:01:27 PM
Author: oldminer

The dishonesty of some marketing and some labs will become more and more apparent to an increasing number of retailers and consumers. This will lead to a greater change in selling than any scientific change in grading. The honest guys have been valuing diamonds about right for a long time. A better system will potentially give more credence to those who deserve to be recognized for their long struggle against the current.
Dave, vivid as the actual Diamond or paper that accompanies it?
Trouble is, no one went to jail for the Certifigate bribery a complete coverup by GIA lawyers..
 

oldminer

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Ssorry, but there was a posting problem with MS Explorer 8

 

oldminer

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A vivid grade on a GIA document makes the diamond important and a vivid color diamond with such a document is worth more than a lesser stone with a "mistaken" or "lucky" GIA document. I refer to values between knowledgeable dealers. The retail asking prices have more to do with the documents than with the actual vivid color. There is no single answer.


The certifigate thing is only representative of the mess our legal system is in. How the rich and powerful often avoid consequences. No matter what, I remain positive about possibilities of change for the better. I have seen little benefit to becoming angry over these revelations.

 

adamasgem

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Date: 6/17/2009 7:20:00 PM
Author: oldminer

A vivid grade on a GIA document makes the diamond important and a vivid color diamond with such a document is worth more than a lesser stone with a ''mistaken'' or ''lucky'' GIA document. I refer to values between knowledgeable dealers. The retail asking prices have more to do with the documents than with the actual vivid color. There is no single answer.



The certifigate thing is only representative of the mess our legal system is in. How the rich and powerful often avoid consequences. No matter what, I remain positive about possibilities of change for the better. I have seen little benefit to becoming angry over these revelations.

Maybe if enough people got angry, those who deserve to would vacaction at club Fed.
Not to mention those who got took for big $$$$..

To paraphrase Bacon, I believ " The only thing necessary for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing" , and that is just what has happpened.
 

oldminer

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Marty, your point is well taken. I admit to standing by although I believe our continued commentaries on these topics are a catalyst which is working for change. (And we are not being sued)
 

adamasgem

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Date: 6/17/2009 7:31:27 PM
Author: oldminer
Marty, your point is well taken. I admit to standing by although I believe our continued commentaries on these topics are a catalyst which is working for change. (And we are not being sued)
Hopefullly they will not try to shut down Pricescope as they did the IDEX forum, either by threats of lawsuits or payoff.. who knows. They won''t be able to keep me quite, and there may be a few surprises in store for them...
 

adamasgem

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Date: 6/17/2009 7:13:03 PM
Author: oldminer

Ssorry, but there was a posting problem with MS Explorer 8

I thought for a minute there was a screw loose in front of the keyboard, old friend
19.gif
 

strmrdr

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Date: 6/17/2009 10:23:18 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

One could deduct that current pricing for high cut-quality is at a discount to future pricing. I would consider this the benefit for the consumers, who now take the time to educate themselves, before the rest of the world does.


Live long,
or one could say that badly cut stones are just overpriced.
Their is a real danger that the best cutting will become like D/IF not worth the premium to a very large majority of people.
There is already some movement in that direction right here at PS as people seek out the best of the one step down stones that have the majority of the looks without the price tag.
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 6/18/2009 9:30:29 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 6/17/2009 10:23:18 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

One could deduct that current pricing for high cut-quality is at a discount to future pricing. I would consider this the benefit for the consumers, who now take the time to educate themselves, before the rest of the world does.


Live long,
or one could say that badly cut stones are just overpriced.
Their is a real danger that the best cutting will become like D/IF not worth the premium to a very large majority of people.
There is already some movement in that direction right here at PS as people seek out the best of the one step down stones that have the majority of the looks without the price tag.
I agree that badly cut stones may be overpriced. It is the same deduction, basically.

However, I wonder about the highlighted sentence. Could it be that you are perceiving what I frequently observe too, where diamonds are offered without full information, but with just enough information for users here to give positive advice...when they really do not have the total picture? This certainly gives me the same impression you describe, but the actual number of ''steps down'' is unclear.

Anyway, we are far off-topic now, and no need to completely threadjack.

Live long,
 

strmrdr

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To answer your question Paul and one last threadjack.

I consider good looking IS and decent face up optical symmetry as one step down.
WF ES and mainly a lot of JA diamonds like that are being sold for under super-ideal cut prices.
 

michaelgem

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Date: 6/16/2009 12:41:57 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 6/16/2009 12:17:50 AM
Author: adamasgem
There is nearly a two to one difference in the UV output at the center of a fluorescent tube, to the edges... so if you have a string of non fluorescent masters ... you get the picture...

And yes Garry, the process is non linear, some diamonds will react differently, depending on the N3/N2 balance(which according to GIA, the N2 ceneters quench the N3 generated blue flluor)
Can you give actual examples of this range Marty?
Have you built a dat base?

Excellent article Garry. It and these resulting important discussions have covered much of the issue of blue fluorescenct diamond over-grading.


Just finished reading it all after Garry emailed me about his article and resulting discussions. Although it is late in this thread there are a few things to add.


I decided to revisit the issue of fluorescent diamond over-grading two Tucsons ago after Stan Hogreve''s talk at the AGA conference. He was reporting as chair of AGA''s task force on lighting standards.

Tom Tashey, I and several others had published articles about this issue ten years earlier after GIA''s article on fluorescence in 97. That study found a "good deal" of UV in the Verilux fluorescent lamps of their then color grading standard, the DiamondLite.

After Stan''s talk in Feb 08, I began work on a series of three articles, the second one revisiting with new findings the over-grading of blue fluorescent diamonds.


I offered to assist Stan and AGA with their lighting standards work and provide them results of my investigation and testing. Joining the task force, I exchanged information, data, ideas and writing. Stan sent me two forms of Dazor lighting to evaluate in the study, along with meters to gather quantitative data.

The AGA Task Force''s 2009 Tucson report delivered by Stan and Gary Smith contained contributions from several task force members including measurements of UV from Peter Yantzer and AGSL. And Thomas Hainschwang''s analysis of a medium blue fluorescent diamond. It contained facts and findings from the data and grading results obtained from a fluorescent diamond data base put together from my and a dealer friend''s inventory along with five diamonds that Antoinette obtained for the study in January, 09. That filled out a 25-diamond data base. There were five diamonds in each of the 5 fluorescent strength categories, one Very Strong Blue in particular, Antoinette''s 3.02ct cushion that turned out to be a true "blue-white" or Jager stone.

The concern in 97 and now is that after teaching for over 60 years the importance of grading a diamond''s "true body color" in a UV free lighting that did not stimulate fluorescence, GIA suddenly in 97 comes out with a fluorescence article with the "revisionist history" idea stated in the winter 2008 G&G that "since 1974, GIA has promoted using a daylight-equivalent fluorescent lamp with a non- negligible amount of emitted UV" and that "the lamp should emit long-wave UV."


Every graduate of GIA and every high level GIA employee and former employee that I interviewed believes this to be false and misleading. The new article I sent to the Gemmological Association notes that: "Even into the 90''s the Diamond Grading Course copyright 1993 taught budding gemologists to use "filtered, fluorescent light (UV-free)" in color grading."

GIA has changed their color grading standard, not once, but twice. First was the move in the 60''s from a relatively UV-free Diamolite to a UV-rich (around 150 uW/cm2) DiamondLite. Second was the move in 2000 discontinuing the DiamondLite and replacing it with grading at the 7" distance in the DiamondDock, where the UV intensity is around 30uW/cm2.

GIA should disclose that in regard to fluorescent diamond grading, since the 60''s they have been grading outside the accepted trade practice that Shipley instituted at GIA. That practice was to grade for "true body color" not the fluorescence enhanced "false color" spoken of by Bruton in Diamonds And Frank Wade in his book in 1916.


Both GIA and AGS are using the DiamondDock as their standard grading instrument, the GIA since 2000. It is important to understand that those still grading in the GIA DiamondLite or GIA microscope light are now grading outside the current GIA dictated standard lighting for color grading. This is due to the fact that the UV component is greatly reduced in going from a 2" distance in the Diamondlite to a 7" distance in the DiamondDock.


The investigation demonstrates that users of the DiamondLite can be grading the most common Very Strong Blue diamonds two grades higher than GIA''s and AGS'' current grading in the DiamondDock, which is in turn up to two grades higher than the "true body color" absent stimulation of fluorescence.


That amounts to an over-grading of the diamond''s "false color", sometimes by four grades over the standard "true body color" prescribed historically by the diamond industry and GIA''s founder Robert Shipley.

Michael D. Cowing
 

adamasgem

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Date: 6/28/2009 12:09:08 PM
Author: michaelgem


Date: 6/16/2009 12:41:57 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)



Date: 6/16/2009 12:17:50 AM
Author: adamasgem
There is nearly a two to one difference in the UV output at the center of a fluorescent tube, to the edges... so if you have a string of non fluorescent masters ... you get the picture...

And yes Garry, the process is non linear, some diamonds will react differently, depending on the N3/N2 balance(which according to GIA, the N2 ceneters quench the N3 generated blue flluor)
Can you give actual examples of this range Marty?
Have you built a dat base?



Tom Tashey, I and several others had published articles about this issue ten years earlier after GIA''s article on fluorescence in 97. That study found a ''good deal'' of UV in the Verilux fluorescent lamps of their then color grading standard, the DiamondLite.

Tom Tashey was the one who started the knowledge base of the issue in actuality with his article in the Professional Gemologist and his use of a film type UV filter in the mid 90''s, with a rather nasty reply from Moses, the mouthpiece for GIA.

G&G 97 was the start of the hyperbole and double talk from GIA (probably to raise the value of the DeBeers stockpile
17.gif
) (see attached image)

At the same time in 97 when GIA said there wasn''t an effect on color, they published a contradictory article http://www.adamasgem.org/pdfs/tavernier.pdf

GIA started (or probably was on its way before then 97) to becoming a FRAUD, and they admitted it in G&G 08


http://www.adamasgem.org/giafluor.html (not updated for the latest AGA finding)

giafl4a.jpg
 

michaelgem

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It was an oversight, I want to quickly correct, not to have mentioned the continuing contributions of AGA Task Force member Thomas Tashey.



When I stated: "Tom Tashey, I and several others had published articles about this issue ten years earlier after GIA''s article on fluorescence in 97.", it would have been a good time to mention that Tom continues at the forefront of this issue especially in light of his professionalism and credibility as former GIA Assistant Laboratory Director, Co-Founder of Professional Gem Sciences Inc, and advisor to the Israel Diamond Institute (IDI).



In the Gemmological Association article, I note the following at the beginning of the Proof section:



The Proof



Where is the proof of the over grading of many blue-fluorescing diamonds?

In a 2009 G&G letter to the editor, past GIA Assistant Laboratory Director, Thomas Tashey recounts: “I was shocked when I made the initial discovery, by placing a clear, UV filter, plastic film between the Verilux lamps in the GIA DiamondLite and the diamonds to be graded, that stones with very strong blue fluorescence could change to a lower colour by three or four letter grades.”

He spoke of a 0.89ct marquise brilliant with Very Strong Blue fluorescence: “In the DiamondLite [Verilux lamps, without UV filter] this stone was graded table down as a high "D". ... When viewed table down, with the UV filter between the lamps and the diamond, the colour grade of the diamond shifted to that of a low "H".” He also found that diamonds with "medium" to "strong" blue fluorescence generally shifted one to two grades when the filter was used. (The Professional Gemologist, 2000)

This example in a Very-Strong-Blue marquise diamond of close to a five grade colour improvement from high D in the DiamondLite over the UV-free “true colour” grade of low H may be met with disbelief by professionals in the trade, all of whom grade in some form of UV-containing fluorescent illumination, and so have not witnessed this large a shift in colour.

However, the data base in this investigation contains a 0.63ct marquise diamond with the same close to five grade improvement in the DiamondLite over its graded “true body colour”.

Michael D. Cowing

 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 6/28/2009 12:09:08 PM
Author: michaelgem


The concern in 97 and now is that after teaching for over 60 years the importance of grading a diamond''s ''true body color'' in a UV free lighting that did not stimulate fluorescence, GIA suddenly in 97 comes out with a fluorescence article with the ''revisionist history'' idea stated in the winter 2008 G&G that ''since 1974, GIA has promoted using a daylight-equivalent fluorescent lamp with a non- negligible amount of emitted UV'' and that ''the lamp should emit long-wave UV.''

I agree Michael that GIA has been less than transperant

GIA has changed their color grading standard, not once, but twice. First was the move in the 60''s from a relatively UV-free Diamolite to a UV-rich (around 150 uW/cm2) DiamondLite. Second was the move in 2000 discontinuing the DiamondLite and replacing it with grading at the 7'' distance in the DiamondDock, where the UV intensity is around 30uW/cm2.

Was Diamond Dock in existance at that time Michael? Al Gilbetrson did not even join GIA until late 2000 and they were still paddling upstream in a barbedwire computer.


GIA should disclose that in regard to fluorescent diamond grading, since the 60''s they have been grading outside the accepted trade practice that Shipley instituted at GIA. That practice was to grade for ''true body color'' not the fluorescence enhanced ''false color'' spoken of by Bruton in Diamonds And Frank Wade in his book in 1916.

Michael I would be careful quoting Bruton - this is what I found in various editions: Mr. Bruton is the only author who attempts to describe an orthodox and accepted colour grading environment of shaded daylight which has often been referred to as the environment that artificial light should mimic. However, Bruton then seems to contradict his own comments: “even reflected light, which contains ultraviolet light”….. “A white light free of ultra-violet will disclose the true body colour….” “but it must be remembered diamonds are rarely seen in such ideal conditions in wear because there is some ultra-violet in most daylight…..”

The investigation demonstrates that users of the DiamondLite can be grading the most common Very Strong Blue diamonds two grades higher than GIA''s and AGS'' current grading in the DiamondDock, which is in turn up to two grades higher than the ''true body color'' absent stimulation of fluorescence.



That amounts to an over-grading of the diamond''s ''false color'', sometimes by four grades over the standard ''true body color'' prescribed historically by the diamond industry and GIA''s founder Robert Shipley.
I do not agree that Robert Shipley or any of our forefathers has the right to always be right. New technologies come and old standards go - its normal in all industries. I believe the idea that the current color grading system is worthy of any support is just plain silly. It is time for a change, an open one and preferably face up based digital or some other repeatable process. The only thing that seems to be missing is the agreement on what is the appropriate "normal" type of light.

GIA''s G&G winter 2008 article mentioned a new CIE standard - does anyone know how that is coming along?

Michael D. Cowing
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 6/28/2009 12:09:08 PM
Author: michaelgem


one Very Strong Blue in particular, Antoinette''s 3.02ct cushion that turned out to be a true ''blue-white'' or Jager stone.


Michael D. Cowing
How do you define a ''true blue white Jager diamond'' Michael?
 

michaelgem

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Date: 6/29/2009 9:57:50 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)


Date: 6/28/2009 12:09:08 PM
Author: michaelgem



one Very Strong Blue in particular, Antoinette''s 3.02ct cushion that turned out to be a true ''blue-white'' or Jager stone.



Michael D. Cowing
How do you define a ''true blue white Jager diamond'' Michael?
I go by the historical definition. The earliest definition to be found in works about diamonds is in Frank Wade''s 1916 book, Diamonds, A Study of the Factors That Govern their Value.

Wade says:

"Jagers", named after the Jagersfontein mine, which yielded some especially fine stones, are bluish white stones. ... there is really very little difference between some blue-white Rivers and some fine Jagers, and values are closely similar and very high for either class.

In the Gemmological Association article, I address this true "blue-white" diamond versus the "false color" diamond at the beginning of the Problem section:

The Problem

The light yellowish tints in a Type Ia diamond combine with the various amounts of blue fluorescence, stimulated by daylight and other illumination containing Ultra Violet energy, to give blue-fluorescent diamonds a whiter, “perceived colour“, than its “true body colour” seen in lighting where fluorescence is not stimulated.

Diamond Colour ¯ “True” or “False”
Going back over 100 years, there was concern in the diamond trade for this fluorescence-improved, “perceived colour”, which was viewed as a “false colour”. The rare, true blue-white (also called Jager after the Jagersfontein Mine) is a term historically reserved for “a particular type of white stone … that is very slightly bluish, usually owing to its strong blue fluorescence” (Bruton, 1978). Bruton noted that the term blue-white “has been much abused,” and speculated that 99% of the diamonds sold as blue-white were not only not blue-white, but had tinted yellow body colour. He called the colour of these diamonds “false white”.

Evidence is found of concern for this fluorescence-improved, “false colour“ going back to at least the turn of the 20th century. In his book “Diamonds A study of the factors that govern their value” (1916), Frank B. Wade warned dealers to be “on their guard against them”. He said that few bluish appearing diamonds are really blue in body colour. “Most of them owe their blueness to a bluish fluorescence which becomes more marked the stronger the light. ... Some of these stones are inferior in beauty to pure white stones when viewed under a light which does not cause them to fluoresce.”

So a followup question is how do I know Antoinette Matlin''s 3.02 cushion cut is a true "blue white"? The answer is found by grading both the fluorescence improved "false color" obtained by grading in the GIA DiamondLite and comparing it to the "true body color" obtained in lighting that does not stimulate fluorescence.

The data base contained five Very Strong Blue''s including Antoinette''s. The other four VS blues dropped four up to almost 5 grades in color. These are the much more common "false color" diamonds referred to by Wade and Bruton. Antoinette''s blue-white went from D to E, an imperceptable change proving it to be the much more rare "true color" Jager stone.

Michael D. Cowing

 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 6/29/2009 11:49:45 AM
Author: michaelgem

Date: 6/29/2009 9:57:50 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)



Date: 6/28/2009 12:09:08 PM
Author: michaelgem




one Very Strong Blue in particular, Antoinette''s 3.02ct cushion that turned out to be a true ''blue-white'' or Jager stone.




Michael D. Cowing
How do you define a ''true blue white Jager diamond'' Michael?

I go by the historical definition. The earliest definition to be found in works about diamonds is in Frank Wade''s 1916 book, Diamonds, A Study of the Factors That Govern their Value.

Wade says:

''Jagers'', named after the Jagersfontein mine, which yielded some especially fine stones, are bluish white stones. ... there is really very little difference between some blue-white Rivers and some fine Jagers, and values are closely similar and very high for either class.

In the Gemmological Association article, I address this true ''blue-white'' diamond versus the ''false color'' diamond at the beginning of the Problem section:

The Problem

The light yellowish tints in a Type Ia diamond combine with the various amounts of blue fluorescence, stimulated by daylight and other illumination containing Ultra Violet energy, to give blue-fluorescent diamonds a whiter, “perceived colour“, than its “true body colour” seen in lighting where fluorescence is not stimulated.


Diamond Colour ¯ “True” or “False”
Going back over 100 years, there was concern in the diamond trade for this fluorescence-improved, “perceived colour”, which was viewed as a “false colour”. The rare, true blue-white (also called Jager after the Jagersfontein Mine) is a term historically reserved for “a particular type of white stone … that is very slightly bluish, usually owing to its strong blue fluorescence” (Bruton, 1978). Bruton noted that the term blue-white “has been much abused,” and speculated that 99% of the diamonds sold as blue-white were not only not blue-white, but had tinted yellow body colour. He called the colour of these diamonds “false white”.

Evidence is found of concern for this fluorescence-improved, “false colour“ going back to at least the turn of the 20th century. In his book “Diamonds A study of the factors that govern their value” (1916), Frank B. Wade warned dealers to be “on their guard against them”. He said that few bluish appearing diamonds are really blue in body colour. “Most of them owe their blueness to a bluish fluorescence which becomes more marked the stronger the light. ... Some of these stones are inferior in beauty to pure white stones when viewed under a light which does not cause them to fluoresce.”

So a followup question is how do I know Antoinette Matlin''s 3.02 cushion cut is a true ''blue white''? The answer is found by grading both the fluorescence improved ''false color'' obtained by grading in the GIA DiamondLite and comparing it to the ''true body color'' obtained in lighting that does not stimulate fluorescence.

The data base contained five Very Strong Blue''s including Antoinette''s. The other four VS blues dropped four up to almost 5 grades in color. These are the much more common ''false color'' diamonds referred to by Wade and Bruton. Antoinette''s blue-white went from D to E, an imperceptable change proving it to be the much more rare ''true color'' Jager stone.

Michael D. Cowing

The short version or a definition is?

A Blue White diamond is a blue fluorescent diamond that only has a one grade shift in color when being color graded under a grading light with and without a Lexan filter.

Next question - is D to F and acceptable range before or after the shift?
And would a low D that shifted to a high F still be Blue White?

I am concerned Michael that if people make such claims that there should be a clear and concise definition.

(I would also like to find one for color grading light sorurces - I do not accept the ancient opinions of single people in days with very different knowledge and lighting sources.)
 
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