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Black Crystal Inclusion in a VS2 Stone ?!

frankiextah

frankiextah

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Messages
785
I received my H VS2 studs from BGD today and used my 10x loupe to inspect the stones... in one of the stones i found a large black crystal in the middle of the table area, and also in the pavilion area (perhaps it is a reflection?)... i'm pretty sure this is not normal, as the other stone looked like a true VS2 to me (tiny clear crystal in the table area) ? so how could this stone be graded an AGS VS2 ?! i've never owned anything lower than VS1, but never would imagine a VS2 would be as such ?!

:confused:

i will try to capture magnified photos, but here's the AGS cert for the stone in question :



Picture%2058.png
 
My mom's VS2 is not eye clean from 6". It definitely happens.
 
I can see the cloud in my VS2 stone holding it a little less than a foot from my face. I don't think it's unheard of and stones are graded under magnification anyway which doesn't mean the inclusion can't be seen when not magnified.
 
thanks, and i'd understand if these crystals were colorless... however, they are basically black crystals, aka carbons, correct ? and judging the position (in the middle of the table), i would think these should be within the SI range ? also, i can see this larger crystal in the aforementioned "stone in question" at about 10" away. :errrr:

just miffed that i paid VS2 price....
 
frankiextah|1320383906|3053710 said:
thanks, and i'd understand if these crystals were colorless... however, they are basically black crystals, aka carbons, correct ? and judging the position (in the middle of the table), i would think these should be within the SI range ? also, i can see this larger crystal in the aforementioned "stone in question" at about 10" away. :errrr:

just miffed that i paid VS2 price....
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My understanding is that stones are graded essentially by how much "real estate" the inclusions take up collectively, so 10 tiny inclusions would get the same grade as 1 larger one if the rest of the stone were totally flawless. Please correct me if I'm wrong!
 
Frankie, some of my VS2 stones definitely have black crystals visible when louped. Generally, I try not to buy stones that have crystals in the table.

Can you ask Brian and Lesley if you can change it for another stone?
 
OP, the grading is probably correct. PS's tutorial says, or at least I thought I read, 1 in 100 VS2 stones has an eye visible inclusion (not a comment on your stone, just saying). I think Phoenix's suggestion is a good one. You might ask for them to swap this one for one with equal stats that doesn't have any inclusions that bother you. They're a reputable company. I don't see why they'd have any problem with it. Good luck.
 
I had studs from a PS vendor at VS2 and one had a black inclusion only visible from the side close up. I do VS1 for ring stones to avoid this possibility, so I feel your pain! When I got my newer studs, I got VS1 and VS2 and they are clean. I am sure no one can see the inclusions on your ears. But for your peace of mind, I would recommend exchanging the stones.
 
I had a similar GIA certified stone. 20 years ago the "old school" in Europe would not grade it as VS2, now almost everyone in the world (including Europe) does.

Anyway, according to the nowdays standarts the grading is probably correct.

But I would probably return it.
 
I would absolutely send that back, earring or not.

I absolutely vehemently disagree with the recentish changes the GIA made that allow a black inclusion to be anything more than an SI2/I1. If there's a black inclusion, it's automatically ruled out--but especially if it's graded above an SI2.
 
I can understand it in an SI1, but not a VS2. That is again why I go with VS1 most of the time because VS2's can have objectionable inclusions. I really hate feathers as well. I am glad there are others who are clarity sensitive! :lol:
 
I can't comment on AGS grading procedures but GIA grades clarity with a watch word for each grade, minute, minor, noticeable, and obvious. They make this determination within 30 seconds of looking at the diamond. They then go over the entirety of the stone locating and categorizing the inclusions. During this process they keep 5 factors in mind, size, number, position, nature, and relief. If these factors reflect their initial grade, the grade stands. If something was missed, or a characteristic was more prominent than originally thought the grade is then shifted. Your stone is a VS2 so it should have minor inclusions that should be somewhat easy to see under a 10x loupe. There are a range of stone appearances that fall into the VS grade and it is possible for a VS stone to have eye visible inclusions. Perhaps your stone merely falls in the bottom of the range. I hope that you can resolve this issue quickly and get to enjoy your earrings, I’m sure they will be lovely!
 
diamondseeker2006|1320413521|3053779 said:
I can understand it in an SI1, but not a VS2. That is again why I go with VS1 most of the time because VS2's can have objectionable inclusions. I really hate feathers as well. I am glad there are others who are clarity sensitive! :lol:
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I am totally clarity sensitive as well and I feel for you Frankie! I would send it back and ask for an eyeclean replacement. I am sure they will accommodate you. Good luck and sorry you are dealing with this. I know the end result will be gorgeous!
 
It happened to a friend of mine - it was explained that because it was ONE inclusion - and even though it was black - it was the grade setting inclusion.

I'd send it back - I wouldn't want that black spot in my diamond!
 
i'm fuming. i guess i should tell you the other 1/2 of the story.

1) BGD no longer ships to my local FEDEX location and required that i go to this shipping insurance company during business day (9-6pm Mon-Fri only) to pick them up. otherwise they would charge me $55 shipping to deliver to my office. i opted to pick them up myself during my lunch break. took a cab and took out an hour of my busy work day to retrieve these.

1a) i realized that the did not include the $100 repeating customer discount in the invoice. i had to request for this. they sent me a check to make up for it.

2) opened the box and was immediately shocked to see the certificates were the E SI1 stones (not the H VS2's i asked for).

3) in addition, the earring setting was crooked from the profile view, basket was partly un-polished

4) freaked out, contacted BGD and they immediately emailed me a mailing label to ship everything back on the same day

5) took another 30 min out of my work day to do so (same day picking up the earrings). it was POURING rain and i had back to back meetings in the office and really did not have time to spare.

6) spoke to Brian the next day and he confirmed that the stones were indeed H VS2's with the wrong certs. I expressed my concern over the setting and he agreed to re-make it. also told him that i was reluctant to pick up the studs myself this time, and asked that he would send the package directly to my office without extra charge. agreed on his part.

7) package arrive yesterday, the setting looked great..... THE CERTS ARE STILL WRONG (E SI1) ??!?!?!?!?

8 ) contacted BGD immediately from my office, before i louped the diamonds. this time i've become a little upset due to this REPEATED mix up. i would have to go to FEDEX on their behalf to drop off these wrong certs. AGAIN, wasting time in my day compensating their mistake. OH, and at this point i'd think they would offer some type of apologies or a small incentive to me. nope, nothing, just "ok please use this label and ship it back to us, thanks."

9) went home last night and louped the stones for the first time, spotted large black crystals in the table area. WTF !

10) contacted BGD this morning and spoke with Brian directly. not much apologies on his part and also very defensive and just blamed his "new system" encountering problems. i expressed to him that i could understand if there was an error the first time around, but i really couldn't justify this mistake again the 2nd time around. he was very defensive about this, and in addition, regardin the diamonds that he was not the one who graded the stones and was not the one who appriased them. While i understood that he had nothing to do with the grading, i was very miffed at this point because i felt that BGD should have at least noted on the website that these stones are not eye clean and do contain black carbons. I was definitely not happy with how he handled the situation, it was a lot of blaming (others) and defensiveness on his part without being apologetic, even though at the end it was agreed upon that he would source comparable stones to replace, while i keep these until he finds the stones.
 
HI:

I had an ACA that had a black spot dead center, VS2. Beautiful stone nonetheless.

cheers--Sharon
 
Ok, at this point, get a refund and your old ones back and seriously, be done.
 
I'm sorry to hear of your experience, Frankie. I hope things get sorted out soon.

May I ask you something: is the black crystal eye-visible (and if so, at what distance) or visible when louped? I'm just curious mainly because VS2 should be eye-clean (but different ppl have different definitions), but may not necessarily be loup-clean. In any case, I think you should let Brian know that you expect your stones to meet your definition and am hoping he can find a replacement for you - soon!

ETA: I'm reiterating what I said about not buying stones with a crystal in the table. Even though I'm not terribly clarity-sensitve, that'd be an absolute no no for me in a VS2 stone as well (even if the stone is eyeclean). Now SI stones with SI pricing would be a differrent story....
 
Re. clarity grading - the labs use a 10x loupe *only*, and determine the final clarity grade based on five factors - nature, size, relief (how visible it is against the background in terms of colour, whether it's obscured by a facet-meet, etc.), location (middle of the table of edge of the girdle?), and number. Nowhere in the process does a real-world assessment come into it, so when we say VS2, SI2 is most likely eyeclean or not we're really just guessing! More on clarity grading here [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/clarity-grading-question.154174/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/clarity-grading-question.154174/[/URL]


In any case - you aren't happy with the stones, and that's that. Hopefully they can find some stones that meet your specific requirements soon!
 
Pheonix,

at first the stones seem eye clean to me. once i've louped it and have seen the black carbons (within the 1st second!), i can spot them about 6-10" away from my eyes without a loupe. this is due to the position of these inclusions being right on top of the ARROWS, making them even more visible to the eye. when i spot them with unaided eyes, i see them as CRYSTALS with no color. with a loupe, they are dark brown in color. in this particular stone with the large black carbon, it looked like a clump of brown snot (yes, eww) extending diagonally up in the middle of the table, which is also visible from one side of the pavilion (pretty sure this is a reflection, as the pavilion "spots" are not noted on the plot).

agreeing with you, that it would be a diff story if i were paying a much lower price on these stones (SI stones of the same carat range are about $1000 lower). i am miffed that BGD did not state the black carbons on the website so at least people will know what they are going into, and so customers like us would not have to go back and forth with disappointment.

awaiting on BGD for replacement stone options... ame, i really want 1ctw and therefore started this upgrade process... so won't be switching back to the smaller studs.

will keep you all posted ! thank you for all of your support.
 
I have a black inclusion on my AGS VS2 stone also!
When I view it with my H&A scope.. Its right on one of the arrow's!

Just happens to be a face up inclusion I tell myself.. But I feel ya!
 
Wow, that is a LOT of mistakes! They need to send the replacements to your office at no charge this time. I would be very frustrated, too!
 
I have owned two stones, SI1 and SI2, and I can't even see any black inclusions with a loupe. Odd! I guess it happens though.
 
It sounds like you have VS1 expectations so you should be getting VS1 diamonds.
Or, maybe you and the vendor could get on the phone and coordinate the cherry picking of some VS2s.
 
kenny|1320465553|3054431 said:
It sounds like you have VS1 expectations so you should be getting VS1 diamonds.
Or, maybe you and the vendor could get on the phone and coordinate the cherry picking of some VS2s.
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Agreed.
 
*Twinkle*twinkle*|1320469322|3054441 said:
kenny|1320465553|3054431 said:
It sounds like you have VS1 expectations so you should be getting VS1 diamonds.
Or, maybe you and the vendor could get on the phone and coordinate the cherry picking of some VS2s.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
Click to expand...

I agree with this as well.
 
One of my pairs of studs are GIA VS1 & VS2....both are eye clean, can't see a thing close up, but the VS2 has 2 black crystals that can be seen with a 10x in an instant, both inclusions in the table. My take is most VS2's are eye clean, if I can't see a thing without a loupe I am ok with the clarity.....I have a couple of SI1's studs that are also eye clean & seem loaded with inclusions with a loupe.

If I can see a black crystal in a VS2 at 10" without a loupe, I agree I would not want it. I hope you get it taken care of with Brian, he has always seemed like a good honest caring gentleman. I do know, when they are busy it seems like they are a bit short of help and things do happen, good luck.
 
WARNING - old thread. :bigsmile:

I got all excited that Frankie was back. ;(
 
So sorry you've had such a crappy experience. I agree with the others you should at least exchange the one stone. My ering is si1 and I am hard pressed to find an inclusion even with a 10x loupe My studs are totally eye clean from 12 " yet there are many carbon spots easily seen under 10x So there are no two VS1 the same. Each has its own characteristics so get another stone.
 
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