BIC, TIC or FIC?? How can a layperson eyeball the difference?

[set2374]

I must say, as a fairly typical guy, I never thought I could be this interested in diamonds or jewelry from that matter. Pricescope is such an amazing tool!!!! As a lay person, I couldn''t imagine trying to learn about diamonds without it. Having spent considerable time reading the educational materials and posts on PS and certain other sites, I can say with some degree of confidence that my knowledge base about diamonds (minimal as it may be compared some on this site), is certainly on par with the B&M jewelers that I have spoken to (at least the knowledge they care to impart, most of which is bunk).

In any case, I am curious about a few suble distinctions regarding BIC, TIC and FIC (Gary, are you out there??). "Ideal Cut" seems to be a rather amorphous term. The Brilliant Ideal Cut, Tolkowsky Ideal Cut and Fiery Ideal Cut are all "Ideal", they they display different characteristics and have varying table percentages and crown angles. I am assuming that the Fiery Ideal and cuts designed to generate the H&A effect are pretty much one and the same??? As per the BIC and TIC, they are also considered "ideal", yet they don''t have the H&A effect and don''t appear to have any special marketing associated with them. When searching Blue Nile and other comparable websites, the "Ideal" label is almost always reserved for that sites "signature ideal" lines, yet there are two other Ideals available. Obviously, it''s very easy to identify an H&A, but there does not seem to be a correspondingly identifiable geometric configuration for the optical symmetry of the BIC and TIC stones (is this true or am I way off base?).

Most of the diamond dealers and jewelers that I have spoken with don''t have sarin or ogi scans of their stones. I am sure those machines are expensive as all heck and I guess most consumers are satisfied with just a GIA cert and the jeweler''s blessing (and those are probably the more educated consumers). I guess the main question is, how can I (a diamond newbie), eyeball an ideal cut diamond compared to a well cut diamond??? Thanks in advance for your advice.

 

[belle]

as the saying goes......
"you must stick to your conviction, but be ready to abandon your assumptions."

soo.....as far as your question regarding fic generating an h&a pattern, the answer is no.
only the cutter can generate an h&a pattern

the differences between bic, tic and fic can be found in the crown angle.
bic= crown angles tic= crown angles from 32.5-35.5
fic= crown angles >35.5
this is given if the diamond has the proper angles which will allow it to score as ideal which is
bic's have high light return and larger spread
tic's combine fire and brillance
fic's are, well...fiery

none guarantee h&a

 

[JohnQuixote]

Belle, I hope you don’t mind if I amend your statement to ‘only the cutter can generate a true H&A pattern:’

Many traditional ideal cuts show nice arrows due to nothing more than tight proportions sets. The hearts (pavilion) patterning is another story... A pedestrian level of “H&A” can be knocked out in a process line on an auto-dialit. The cut geeks on this channel would not stand for them being called H&A, but these are common.

Precise alignment of the pavilion facets to acquire a pristine (true) hearts pattern with robust minor facet relationships is due to purposeful cut that takes more time and weight.

Now - whether you value such ‘locked in’ precision is a personal choice. The benefits of great patterning and optimization may make themselves evident in near-H&A too.

 

[set2374]

That''s interesting John. So, would a BIC with tight proportions naturally generate the arrows, but the heart pattern would be absent? I guess my own personal preference favors a healthy spread. The Ideal H&A''s all seem to be noticeably less spready than comparable stones with tables above the H&A range (say, 59-60.5%). Assuming tight proportions, you would find the arrow patterns absent hearts, yet retain the spread??? That would be interesting. Not to disparage those H&A Idealists out there (hehe), the arrows are more meaningful to me than the hearts anyway. I have noticed that in H&A Ideals, at certain angles and lighting, the arrows are quite prominent even without an Idealscope (I really need to order one of those). I have yet to see arrows without a scope. So, is it fair to conclude that arrows and large spread can be had (say, a 1.5 carat spreading to 7.7 MM or 1.75 spreading to 7.9MM)???

 

[belle]

Date: 7/14/2005 4:43:17 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Belle, I hope you don’t mind if I amend your statement to ‘only the cutter can generate a true H&A pattern:’

nope, don''t mind at all.
you are right of course, i was just making the point that a stone with fic (or tic or bic) properties is not necessarily h&a and should not be assumed to be so.

 

[Regular Guy]

for the most part, BIC and particularly FICs are found by accident only; diamonds that are sought after and kept on hand are almost always TICs. If you''re willing to go fish, have a strong feeling (not clear TIC isn''t just dandy) for going for either BIC or TIC, a vendor could work with you to fish with you. You could look for a volunteer on this board, for example. Or just go fishing in the Quick Search db yourself, and hope to pull one out.

But generally, you''ll be hard pressed to find alternatives to TIC found on hand with a vendor.

Regards,

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 7/14/2005 5:22:57 PM
Author: set2374
That's interesting John. So, would a BIC with tight proportions naturally generate the arrows, but the heart pattern would be absent? I guess my own personal preference favors a healthy spread. The Ideal H&A's all seem to be noticeably less spready than comparable stones with tables above the H&A range (say, 59-60.5%). Assuming tight proportions, you would find the arrow patterns absent hearts, yet retain the spread??? That would be interesting. Not to disparage those H&A Idealists out there (hehe), the arrows are more meaningful to me than the hearts anyway. I have noticed that in H&A Ideals, at certain angles and lighting, the arrows are quite prominent even without an Idealscope (I really need to order one of those). I have yet to see arrows without a scope. So, is it fair to conclude that arrows and large spread can be had (say, a 1.5 carat spreading to 7.7 MM or 1.75 spreading to 7.9MM)???

Hi again Set. I hope you don't mind if I clarify some things here.

Spread and table size are not the same thing. A ‘spready’ round diamond is considered shallow and undesirable. A diamond will hopefully have good spread no matter what the table size. For instance, you want a 1ct diamond to be at 6.5 mm whether you have a petite or full-figured table

If you like tables around 60% you’ll find them priced lower than traditional ideal makes so that could work to your advantage. However if you’re looking for optimum Heart & Arrows patterning you’re less likely to find H&A and 60% table coupled with maximum light return. Ideal-scope images will show you that.

Some of us are kicking around some conversation in the 'fad' thread about Tolkowsky table size versus 60/60.

More about Hearts and Arrows

The pavilion patterning or “hearts” view seen in the bottom of a round diamond is the most important part of its construction. Pavilion mains meet at the culet, or base, of the diamond and are the primary mirrors - the engines that drive light return.

Each arrow you see through the crown is merely 1 pavilion main reflecting one off of 1 other. But for the remainder of the pavilion patterning to be precise (and thus optimize light return) it takes 6 facets working together to create just 1 heart.

This is why diamonds cut to proven proportions may naturally display arrows: It is very logical for pavilion mains to be aligned with each other as a fundamental of cutting to a tight range. Pavilion patterning is much harder to acquire.

If you’re up for a read and some pics, here is some info I put in the glossary (scroll down to the 4th post to begin the technical stuff).

 

[set2374]

John,

Thanks for clarifying (and please clarify away!), I was inaccurate in my use of the term spread and table percentage. I am actually looking at diamonds in the 1.75 Carat range. What do you think a good minimum-maximum diameter should be. One diamond I am considering is a 1.75 C, 58.9% depth, 58 table, 7.92-7.95 X 4.67. Does this diameter sound a little large??? The diamond itself looks very nice, but since I am not an expert, do these proportions sound reasonable? I wish I knew crown angles, but there are no numbers on it (it''s from a B&M). Any thoughts???


--Steve

 

[JohnQuixote]

For a 1.75 ct round 7.8 mm would be spot-on, so it's a wee (I borrowed that word from my Irish ancestors) bit spread by discriminating standards.

The best judgments are made with your eyes. If you have seen it perform next to others, it speaks to you and is in-line pricewise with those of similar pedigree you can make the best determination yourself.

ETA: I usually would advise this, so came back to add... For a multi-thousand dollar purchase I don't think it is out of line to request a Sarin Report that provides all necessary proportions. Best case would be a light return image image too (ideal-scope, ASET).

 

[set2374]

Thanks so much for your advice John. I have been following your comments on the 60:60 thread. You have made some wonderfully salient points. As for the diamond I am looking at, I thought it might be a little on the portly side, but I can''t really tell by eyeball. The stone I put a deposit on is a GSI2 (the proportions are above 7.92-7.95 X 4.67, vg, vg, no fl, no culet) has one inclusion (an indented natural on the pavillion, midway between the culet and girdle). It is visible if you study the stone carefully loose, but once it''s set i can''t imagine how you can possibly see the inclusion. It''s not visible with a loop face-up. In fact, nothing is visible with a loop face up (GIA comment "pinpoints not shown" but I couldn''t find them with the loop, despite all my efforts). I guess my priorities are a balance between size and quality for the money. Incidentally, my budget is $9,000 (this stone is $8,960). Of course, I would love to get her a D IF, ideal cut stone, but we also need a downpayment for a house. I haven''t bought it yet (if I walk away, I loose my $200 deposit, but I could live with that more than a $9,000 mistake). Based on what I am saying here, do you think I should go for it, or look around for something else???

 

[belle]

you''re the only one who can make the decision about whether or not to buy this stone, since you are the only one who has seen it and compared it to others. without having more information (crown and pavilion angles at least) no one can even make an educated guess as to whether or not it is worth buying.

 

[set2374]

P.S. I actually did ask the vendor for a sarin report. He didn''t have one available. He actually asked me if I had been reading on this site, because he was surprised I knew about sarin reports. Incidently, the vendor is a B&M on 47th Street, who has a pretty decent reputation (at least according the NYC BBB and the 47th Street Association). He said he only orders sarins for stones he thinks would be AGS0 and told me that this is a premium cut stone, but it''s not a super ideal. He told me that sarins are great when you''re selling on line, because it really helps the sale if you are dealing with a descriminating buyer that''s going to run the HCA model. If you have the stone and can eyeball it next to other stones and shop the different vendors, you''re eyes and observations are more valuable. He also said, that super ideal are great, but he let me compare this stone to one that was an H&A AGS0 type stone with ogi (no AGS, he said he usually use GIA because it''s more convenient (one block for his booth), better and less expensive)). I honestly couldn''t tell the difference between this stone and the super ideal. Then again, I can''t really tell the difference between a $30 bottle of wine and a $400 super tuscan (I can tell the difference between the $7.99 special and the good stuff). I think for the average guy like me, we can tell obvious crap (like that pancake 60:60 in the 60:60 thread, or an M I1), but once you hit a certain degree of quality, going up higher stops making noticeable differences. He told me it would cost about $100 bucks for the sarin report and he would be happy to get it for me, but his margin was low on the stone at the negotiated price and I would have to pay for the report (does this sound right)? He seemed very straight forward, but he could be just a great salesman. Is this guy making any sense to you John?

 

[set2374]

Sorry, Belle, I would have addressed your comment but I was already typing away when I saw your post. You''re probably right. I just want someone to tell me I am making a good decision and that I am not going to kick myself in the butt a few weeks from now.

 

[belle]

Date: 7/14/2005 10:54:44 PM
Author: set2374
Sorry, Belle, I would have addressed your comment but I was already typing away when I saw your post. You're probably right. I just want someone to tell me I am making a good decision and that I am not going to kick myself in the butt a few weeks from now.

no worries set

it's all good.
i understand where you are coming from. this is a large, possibly once in a lifetime purchase and you want to get it right.
let me ask you this, what would make you at ease with your decision to buy this diamond? is it having as much information as you can about the stone? is it knowing that you've compared it to many other cuts, colors, etc.. and realizing that it looked better that anything else you've seen? or could it be that this is just the one you keep coming back to and you trust your own eyes? decide what it is that is going to make you comfortable with your purchase and see it through.

btw...a vendor is not going to have a super ideal cut diamond without an appropriate grading report to accompany it. even if gia is right next door.
i'm curious as to what you were actually comparing to.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 7/14/2005 10:53:10 PM
Author: set2374
P.S. I actually did ask the vendor for a sarin report. He didn't have one available. He actually asked me if I had been reading on this site, because he was surprised I knew about sarin reports. Incidently, the vendor is a B&M on 47th Street, who has a pretty decent reputation (at least according the NYC BBB and the 47th Street Association). He said he only orders sarins for stones he thinks would be AGS0 and told me that this is a premium cut stone, but it's not a super ideal. He told me that sarins are great when you're selling on line, because it really helps the sale if you are dealing with a descriminating buyer that's going to run the HCA model. If you have the stone and can eyeball it next to other stones and shop the different vendors, you're eyes and observations are more valuable. He also said, that super ideal are great, but he let me compare this stone to one that was an H&A AGS0 type stone with ogi (no AGS, he said he usually use GIA because it's more convenient (one block for his booth), better and less expensive)). I honestly couldn't tell the difference between this stone and the super ideal. Then again, I can't really tell the difference between a $30 bottle of wine and a $400 super tuscan (I can tell the difference between the $7.99 special and the good stuff). I think for the average guy like me, we can tell obvious crap (like that pancake 60:60 in the 60:60 thread, or an M I1), but once you hit a certain degree of quality, going up higher stops making noticeable differences. He told me it would cost about $100 bucks for the sarin report and he would be happy to get it for me, but his margin was low on the stone at the negotiated price and I would have to pay for the report (does this sound right)? He seemed very straight forward, but he could be just a great salesman. Is this guy making any sense to you John?

I am still chuckling about the wine comparison.

This salesman could very well be shooting straight with you. His reasoning was practical. An eye-clean 1.75 G SI2 with GIA paper, VGs and no fl is a nice get for $9K if the cut is indeed right.

Here is what I hear you saying: You think it is beautiful but want some verification somewhere. Well, without more info we can't give you more. I completely understand your desire for making the diamond 'mind clean' in your own head. You can continue hunting here and abroad of course (other deals will appear) but a 1.75 in the hand - that you have seen and compared live and really like - is worth something.

Here are my suggestions

(1) See if he will let you have a few days of 100% return (minus the $200 deposit perhaps). Take it to an independent appraiser for a Sarin report - or have a full workup done. You'll need something along these lines for insurance anyway.

(2) It's 47th street. Make a deal. He says the Sarin will be $100. Have him run the report with this condition: If the diamond has premium proportions, as advertised, you'll go ahead and pay for the report. If it does not and you walk away he counts the Sarin cost as part of the deposit you already put down. After all, he'll still have the report.

Honestly $100 is a bit steep for a Sarin, but for a $9000 investment that little paper makes for good peace of mind, and if the diamond is great cut as advertised I imagine you'd feel better.

Please don't misconstrue my statements as directives!

These are simple musings and possibilities. Others here may have more suitable ideas.

 

[set2374]

He had a sarin and GIA, just not an AGS. The sarin numbers on the stone were amazing (it had an HCA of .3, even Cut Nut would approve), but the stone was also a FVVS2 1.8 H&A that was WAY WAY WAY out of my price range ($19,500 and that sounded like an amazing price too (if you have it)). It was definitely a superior stone in all respects and more than double the price. It was the best stone he had in his inventory for the moment and he had already sold it (through an internet vendor who was acting as the broker!!!). He just showed it to me so I could see what the difference was between my stone and that one. He also showed me a 2.02 Carat frozen spit JI1, with a 74% table, for comparison purposes. This was the first time I saw a true no-nonsense fisheye. He said he''s had the stone for almost a year with no takers and, after chatting for an hour, he told me he had to buy it as part of a lot. It was certainly educational.

Incidentally, I have looked at jewelers from crappy mall stores to Tiffany''s, to other booth vendors on 47th Street to actual diamond wholesalers that don''t sell to the public (got a favor from a friend). Most of what I saw was really ehhh, some real crap, some that were nice but overpriced (IMO), some that made me drool and dream (the FVVS2), and then the GSI2. I dealt with one internet vendor (whose name I won''t mention) and they were very pleasant to deal with, but everytime they found me the "perfect stone" they called a day letter to tell me it was no longer available. I would have kept going with them, but it''s easier for me to just go to NYC and eyeball the stones. I think internet vendors are fantastic and whiteflash and blue nile really seem to be top notch. I have recommended them both to three of my friends that are in the "market" for a nice rock. The settings on whiteflash are awesome and I think I have one in mind. Want to do business John??

 

[set2374]

John, I just saw your post. I am taking your advice. I am calling the guy tomorrow to make the request. My only catch is that I have a timing issue (this diamond hunt took a lot longer than I expected!!!). Incidentally, I am leaving on a cruise with my gf in two weeks and I am going to propose there. Eeech,I am in a timing crunch. I really really want to have a ring with me for the proposal.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/15/2005 12:00:52 AM
Author: set2374
He had a sarin and GIA, just not an AGS. The sarin numbers on the stone were amazing (it had an HCA of .3, even Cut Nut would approve), but the stone was also a FVVS2 1.8 H&A that was WAY WAY WAY out of my price range ($19,500 and that sounded like an amazing price too (if you have it)). It was definitely a superior stone in all respects and more than double the price. It was the best stone he had in his inventory for the moment and he had already sold it (through an internet vendor who was acting as the broker!!!). He just showed it to me so I could see what the difference was between my stone and that one. He also showed me a 2.02 Carat frozen spit JI1, with a 74% table, for comparison purposes. This was the first time I saw a true no-nonsense fisheye. He said he''s had the stone for almost a year with no takers and, after chatting for an hour, he told me he had to buy it as part of a lot. It was certainly educational.

HCA of .3 ? is that possible ?

what are the specs on this stone? any way i prefer a HCA 1.0-1.3 score. JMO

btw; chances are slim and none, that you will find a ideal H&A cut at 20% back.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 7/15/2005 12:00:52 AM
Author: set2374

I think internet vendors are fantastic and whiteflash and blue nile really seem to be top notch. I have recommended them both to three of my friends that are in the 'market' for a nice rock. The settings on whiteflash are awesome and I think I have one in mind. Want to do business John??

Thank you for the recommendations. I'm glad to have helped you set your compass with this big decision. Keep us advised.

As far as settings...PM or email me with what caught your eye.

 

[set2374]

John, it''s PL101-65_200... the Le 3 row pave. As far as the pave goes, are those 2MM stones??? It''s always hard to get a perspective from pictures.

 

[belle]

set,
vendors are not allowed to dicuss their merchandise on the boards. if you have a question about the setting, you should call wf directly.

 

[set2374]

Oh, I am sorry. I didn''t realize. Apologies!!!! Thanks for letting me know.

 

[set2374]

John, I guess the vendor reconsidered his position. He ran a sarin report for me. I haven''t seen the report yet (waiting for the fax). The crown angle is 31.5 and the pavillion angle is 40.9. The HCA is a 0.9 which is an Excellent for BIC. I guess this makes me feel a lot more comfortable even if the diamond is a "smidge" on the spready side. I guess because it''s a VG/VG instead of a EX/EX, it couldn''t be considered a true Ideal, but, considering the price, it''s close enough for me.

One last question though: Does an indented natural on the pavilion have any impact on the diamond''s performance? I have read in a few places that it does not, but the examples are always indented naturals along the girdle.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 7/15/2005 12:05:38 PM
Author: set2374
John, I guess the vendor reconsidered his position. He ran a sarin report for me. I haven't seen the report yet (waiting for the fax). The crown angle is 31.5 and the pavillion angle is 40.9. The HCA is a 0.9 which is an Excellent for BIC. I guess this makes me feel a lot more comfortable even if the diamond is a 'smidge' on the spready side. I guess because it's a VG/VG instead of a EX/EX, it couldn't be considered a true Ideal, but, considering the price, it's close enough for me.

One last question though: Does an indented natural on the pavilion have any impact on the diamond's performance? I have read in a few places that it does not, but the examples are always indented naturals along the girdle.

A crown that shallow puts it in the AGS4 category using traditional standards. I can see why he didn't have a Sarin. Do you have the Sarin now? What does it says re exact mm, Depth, Table, CA, PA, Girdle and culet? The reason I ask is because with those angles and depth either the table should be smaller or the CA should be steeper.

The indented natural is something we wouldn't recommend, meaning we would not stock that diamond, but you have said it is completely eye clean and it's not likely a durability issue on the pavilion, so it helps the price meet your parameters.