Bad Taste left in Mouth

[chrono]

I am not quite ready to out the Pricescope recommended vendor but am feeling pissed enough to start this thread to ask if I'm being unreasonable or if my feelings are valid.

The first part of the story begins when the lapidary promised to cut the stone for me after I saw a PSer purchase a nice looking garnet for X amount of dollars. After weekly email reminders, he finally cuts the stone more than a month later, maybe even two months later. You can imagine my surprise when he tells me that the price of the stone is more than twice what I saw another PSer purchased the similar stone for. The carat weight difference is no more than 0.75 ct larger and he claims that the colour is better and it is cleaner. How much better and cleaner it is, I will never know as he never sent a picture but more of that later.

His reasoning is that he cannot find the other bag of rough with similar material, which he assured me in a much earlier email that he has 3 other parcels of this, yet now claims this material cannot be had today. Not only that, he purchased this years ago (even claimed to have forgotten he had it), then wants to charge me today's prices because his colleagues/friends supposedly chewed him out for charging too low for the other garnet he sold to that PSer.

Fine! I can handle that but the story isn't over yet. All of a sudden, he writes back to be to say that he has changed his mind and has decided to keep his garnet for his personal collection. The entire transaction has gone from bad to worse and makes me question his character.

Feel free to ask questions to clarify anything because I'm so mad I cannot think straight at the moment, which is a rarity for me. If I am being unreasonable, do say so because I won't chew you out. My intention of starting this thread is to find out if what I am feeling is reasonable. What I can say though is that it has left a very bad taste in my mouth, not to mention a very bad impression of the vendor.

 

[T L]

Chrono,
If someone left me hanging like that forever, for a stone and then decided not to sell it to me, and keep it, I would be

You are a very logical and reasonable person in my estimation, so if this made you mad, it's understandable. I would never deal with someone like that ever again, even if he had the Hope diamond to sell to me.

 

[mariedtiger]

Hi Chrono,

I second TL in that I think you are a very reasonable and rational person in my opinion and are completely justified in your outrage and I can imagine the disappointment of how things went. That sounds like such volatile behavior from the vendor!

 

[minousbijoux]

For your considerable investment of time devoted and the significant correspondence you have had, I would feel jerked around as well. It sounds like what may have happened is that the vendor, in a disorganized fashion, realized the value only after speaking with colleagues (or had one of them express interest in it) and thought they could discourage your interest by jacking up the price. When that apparently failed, they had to tell you it wasn't for sale. it is definitely not a way to grow business clientele, and not a way I would try to conduct business.

But most of all, I am disappointed for you; you have been looking forward to this stone for a while, and it really doesn't sound fair to you. You deserve better.

 

[Liane]

That is super sketchy. I'm inclined to agree with minousbijoux that this sounds like the vendor realized after the fact that the stone was worth more than he wanted to sell it for (although it's weird to me that a PS recommended vendor would be that ignorant of the market value of gemstones -- a hobbyist I can understand, but someone professional enough to be PS recommended?). But even so, if you were willing to pay the higher price (which is already sketchy -- there wasn't even a general price agreement before you started this project?), that agreement should have been honored. You can't just keep a commissioned piece of work. Like, "oh, sorry, this is too good to sell to you now even though I would never have done it if you hadn't agreed to buy it beforehand." Whaaat.

Sorry, this is really inarticulate, but the point I am trying to get at is: based on these facts, it's totally reasonable for you to be steamed.

Also I think you should out whoever this is. Maybe the vendor has another side of the story, maybe not. Regardless I'd like to know for my own selfish reasons so I can avoid similar aggravation.

 

[iLander]

I'm supposed to be doing actual work right now, but I had to weigh in real quick:

Chrono, you've always been very reasonable in all your posts, so if they made you mad, then it is indeed maddening!

I think this behavior is very unprofessional, he/she made an agreement!

Then they double the price and then refuse to sell it? What the heck is that about?

If you don't reveal the faceter, we will all imagine it's our favorite guy, and the whole faceter community will be looked at with doubt. I'm racking my brain, and I have come up with several suspects.

I think you may want to "out" this person, so the whole group isn't sullied.

I'd like to here from other faceters about how they've had to let favorite stones go, too. I guess let them weigh in before you reveal the culprit.

 

[Treenbean]

Chrono, I am really sorry this happened to you.
This is very unprofessional of the vendor and they should feel bad about what they have done. As far as reasonability, you are always pleasant and knowledgeable and pragmatic in your suggestions and comments to fellow PriceScopers. I cannot imagine you not being such with the vendor.
I would be hot under the collar about this one.

As a newbie I look up to posters like you and TL, because you know a heck of a lot more than me. Really sucks that you were taken advantage of!

 

[colorluvr]

Chrono, I am really sorry this happened to you.
This is very unprofessional of the vendor and they should feel bad about what they have done. As far as reasonability, you are always pleasant and knowledgeable and pragmatic in your suggestions and comments to fellow PriceScopers. I cannot imagine you not being such with the vendor.
I would be hot under the collar about this one.

As a newbie I look up to posters like you and TL, because you know a heck of a lot more than me. Really sucks that you were taken advantage of!

+1

 

[TravelingGal]

Chrono, there are two sides to every story, but having only heard yours and believing from your years here that you are a pretty rational person, it sounds like you have every right to be upset.

I hope this gets resolved for you. And I hope you do post your experience with the vendor's name. I think too often, PSers don't post for fear of being flamed. It's your experience, your feelings and no one can say otherwise.

 

[VapidLapid]

You are quite reasonable. Perhaps the faceter has had a recent knock on the head, and thus is in an impaired mental state. Presumably you have bought from this person before. I would hold off on outing the perp at this time. Adding bad to bad is likely only to make 2xBad.
A few questions.
Have you still not seen even a picture of the stone? If yes (not seen) then maybe you dont want it anyway.
Do you think the keeping it for my own collection line was hype and part of a selling tactic to get you to swallow the unexpected price?
Have you written directly to faceter and said the way this whole thing has gone makes you feel disrespected and unvalued.

 

[PinkTower]

This sounds unreasonable and does not even seem logical.

A friend of mine had an elderly father who owned an old fashioned hardware store. He had signs on nearly every item in there saying "not for sale." One friend went in there and picked up a set of six plates and tried to pay for them. The old man changed his mind turing the transaction at the register and said he would sell one plate, not the whole set.

We have had many laughs over this. My point is, what you describe is not standard business behavior. I know you are not in the mood to laugh right now, but I think you may feel that way over time. It is not the behavior of an established, professional merchant.

 

[chamois]

Very sorry to hear this, I feel for you. An unprofessional way to do business in today's climate. Were you offered any apology or an alternative to compensate/alleviate your disappoinment, and ultimately have you a happy potential returning customer ?

 

[chrono]

TL & MT,
You both know me offline so I have no qualms sharing with you who this vendor is privately, if you wish to know. As you both know, I am very slow to anger and usually think things through, even when casually emailing friends, so it takes a lot to make me upset. Thank you for expressing your opinion.

Minousbijoux,
Disorganized or whatever it may be, I feel like a stupid fool for being jerked around like this. I do not deserve such treatment, in fact, nobody does. And the fact that it is a recommended PS vendor is certainly surprising.

Laine,
I am so mad that I'm ready to type out the vendor's name. If there is another side to the story, then he has not explained it clearly to me. I was prepared to accept the higher price when he hit me with the sudden "it's not for sale but will be in my personal collection" excuse. This is totally unprofessional!

iLander,
You are too funny! Thanks for cheering me up just when I need it most. I did consider how this post might paint our other favourite lapidaries in a bad light but I think many will have their own suspicions anyway based on the numerous hints I have dropped here and there.

 

[chrono]

Treebean and Colorluvr,
You two are so sweet and kind. Thank you.

TGal,
I'm not afraid of being flamed; I guess I first want to know if I'm being irrational or are my feelings warranted. If I'm being an ******* about it, then I'll keep my big mouth shut and say no more on this matter. If most posters think this behaviour is unprofessional, I will out the name of the lapidarist/vendor.

VapidLapid,
No, this vendor is new to me, but many PSers have purchased from him with frequent recommendations and good reviews. From the last email I received from him, I strongly believe that the transaction is over. After all, if he refuses to sell the garnet, there is nothing else to discuss, is there? In any case, even were he to change his mind, his character is already badly tainted in my opinion.
1. No, I have not yet seen a picture of the stone. He promised to send it this weekend but after that last email where the stone is now to be in his personal collection, that's moot point.
2. I have no idea. Even if it is, I think that is a horrible sales tactic and speaks volumes about his personal character.
3. Yes, I have. I have not heard from him since my last email to him expressing my disappointment and anger.

Pink Tower,
I hope I'll be able to laugh about this in the future.

Chamois,
I was offered an apology but it feels strangely hollow. After all that transpired (waiting for nearly 2 months with my sending an email every week because there was no news), then the shock of the 2x price ( I can understand a higher price for better material but to THIS extent with such a poor excuse), then had the rug pulled out under me with the retraction of sale, it seems pretty lame, doesn't it? Even if he were to offer an alternative, I would never again purchase from him.

 

[LD]

If he won't sell you the stone, do you think he might sell you one facet at a time? Like the guy with the plates???!!

Sorry just trying to bring a smile back to your face!

Mmmmm, I find his/her behaviour very odd. First there are 3 parcels of rough then only 1. Then you have the "got chewed out by other PS vendors for selling so cheaply" which I actually don't believe and then keeping for his/her own private collection.

It does make you wonder if he/she had doubts right from the start and, if som, why not just say so and say "sorry, I can't help". In this case the vendor's twists, turns, time lagging and general odd responses have made this situation much worse than it might have been.

You know, I'm a great believer in fate. This stone wasn't meant to be yours and I reckon you've had a lucky escape. There'll be something much more beautiful around the corner AND if this Vendor continues with this vein of selling he/her is going to be losing custom all over the place.

 

[mochi]

I'm so sad that this has happened to you, Chrono!! That is such a unprofessional way to treat a customer. I, for one, would want to know who this person is so that I can boycott them. There are other wonderful faceter here on PS who will appreciate our business.

 

[VapidLapid]

It sounds like you've tried to reach an amicable resolution at various stages, all to no avail. Since you've still not seen the stone it may not be what you want anyway. And if the faceter were to make it available to you rather than put it in his/her collection I doubt you would want it now anyway; it would at least need to be de-cursed by a qualified shaman and I would expect the vendor to cover those costs.
His reputation is his own making. Let him hang

 

[minousbijoux]

Chrono:

PLEASE don't waste any time feeling like a stupid fool! You conducted yourself in the proper manner of an interested potential buyer in order to conduct a business transaction; like anyone else you assumed good intentions regarding the seller of the stone and assumed, as we all would, that they would be an interested seller and would conduct themselves accordingly. Umm, who violated that implicit arrangement? Certainly not you. Everything about the reasonableness expressed in your posts would suggest that you would be a favorite client of any committed, quality seller.

-Minou

 

[decodelighted]

I wonder if she/he hasn't sent a pix because it'll shortly show up belonging to some OTHER ps-er who was willing to pay the higher price.

One one hand I can empathize with a vendor wanting to get the most $$ from a stone. I guess it depends on the agreement in advance. Did you purchase a piece of rough from him & commission him to cut it with a deposit etc..... or was it a more casual kind of understanding?

 

[Aoife]

First of all, Chrono, I don't at all think you are being unreasonable to be angry and upset. There are several very odd things about this entire situation, and I have a feeling that there might be quite a bit more to the story than you can know, but, I can't think of anything that the vendor could offer up as an excuse or reason that could make his/her behavior anything but unprofessional at best. I have a couple of guesses as to who this might be, and I really hope that at some point you will feel comfortable posting who it is, otherwise it taints the entire pool of vendors unnecessarily.

I'm so, so sorry this happened to you. It is infuriating on almost every level.

 

[chrono]

LD,
Thanks for trying to cheer me up. Umm...so do I have to glue each facet back together and end up with a reconstituted garnet?

Mochi,
I'm still not sure if I should out the lapidary/vendor, but I'll email you privately.

VapidLapid,
You are correct; even should he change his mind, the stone and entire experience remains sour in my mind. No matter how good the deal is, I cannot in good faith and clear conscience purchase a gemstone from such a vendor.

Minou,
Thanks for your understanding.

Deco,
Have I mentioned how much I love your siggy? Most lapidaries will not sell the rough, then facet it for the customer. It is basically a package deal (rough and faceting labour). With the exception of JW, no one else requires a deposit. There is an unwritten understanding concerning the general pricing of the stone and end result, with the option to return the stone for a full refund.

 

[mastercutgems]

Hello All;

First let me say that I am the person Chrono is talking about. I know this may open Pandora's box but I have to stand up for myself when the entire truth is not being told.

I was contacted by Chrono in regards to the 4.75 carat Namibian garnet I had on my site and was sold to a PS member. She wanted a stone like that or larger. This was a little over 2 weeks ago.

She did not mention price but did state that she did not want me to cut her gem but she wanted my friend Dr. Weaver to cut it. So I told her I would check my rough and get back with her. I did tell her that I might have one that would cut a gem that large but we would only know after it was cut.

I told her the gem was 5.5 carats and cut in the same oval as was sold to the lady on PS. I did tell her the price was higher as it was over the 5 carat mark and was cleaner than that gem. When I told her the price which was 75 dollars a carat less than anyone else charges she was still not happy and wanted the gem for the same price as the other PS lady; well it is not the same gem. She made me an offer that was below what I was willing to sell it for; so seeing it was the only gem I had that size I decided to keep it as we were going nowhere with negotiations and she was getting insulting and not nice at all. I did tell her that if I found more of that material where I could charge her less for it I would let her know; that too was not a good thing as said a few other not nice things.

Everyone who has ever dealt with me and Chrono has not; knows I will give more than I ask and will do everything in my power to be fair and kind. But when you are rude and say things like " I feel like I am being fleeced in broad daylight by your pricing"; when we had never discussed price; well I prefer to not do business with a person like that. Not to mention being rude in saying; I want your rough which is rare but I do not want you to do the cutting; oh and by the way I want a 300 dollar a carat gem for 125 dollars a carat. This Lady Chrono had the same opportunity to buy the other gem; as the other Lady took the gamble and bought it; as anyone that deals with me knows; I have a full 100 percent money back return policy. It is the only fair way to do business. They are not the same gem and the price reflects color, size, and clarity.

So that is my side of the story and anyone wanting un-doctored copies of the emails; just ask.

I am so very sorry this ever happened and IF I knew it would have I would have never offered to cut anything for her to look at as no money ever changed hands or there was no surety she would even buy the stone after it was cut. Plus we did not even know if the gem would cut over 4 carats.

I was going to let this slide but she is making more out of this than necessary as she is out nothing but a few emails and I am out all the cutting time and the email abuse she has given me for the last 2 days.

Most respectfully;

Dana M. Reynolds, csmg

 

[chrono]

I wasn't planning to out Dana on PS, but as he has posted, I shall continue our discussion here. I am open to hearing/reading his side of the story as well.

Point 1: My initial email to Dana expressing interest in getting a spessartite similar to the one the other PSer purchased is dated on September 20, 2010. I still have this email in my folder. This is obviously not 2 weeks ago but nearly 2 months ago.

Point 2: I'll concede that price was not mentioned. Perhaps it is my fault but I was expecting like quality and like pricing because both stones are from the same parcel.

Point 3: I made an offer to Dana that was higher, but I guess he felt insulted by my offer? As I have not seen any pictures of the stone, how do I know it is indeed of better clarity and colour than the other spessartite?

Point 4: I'm surprised to see you mention that you are insulted that I'd requested your student to cut for me when you replied that it was a compliment to the teacher to have the student cut a customer's stone. I like the design he chose to cut the other oval, so is there anything wrong with that?

 

[VapidLapid]

I think it is reasonable, if one inquires about having a stone, just like the one sold a few weeks ago, to expect similar pricing. Also the reference stone that was just sold had also been recently listed so it wasn't old stock/oldprice. Given that ground I think if the vendor finds it is going to be priced significantly different it should be said and as early in the process as can be.

There is nothing wrong with making an offer. In fact it said a few weeks ago on mastercut's website that he would be glad to entertain offers and give discounts when he could. Having said that I will mention that it did also specifically state that he could not give discounts on dr. weaver's stones as they were priced by him.

When a faceter is asked for a stone like the one they just had or any other, and they look through their rough to see if they can...there is no more guarantee that the customer will buy that one when it is cut than there is when a customer asks about a stone already in inventory. Generally there is an inspection period. Who would commit to sealing a transaction on an unseen stone? So a stone gets cut special? You still have the stone and can put it in inventory and sell it to someone else. You are out nothing.

"I did tell her that if I found more of that material where I could charge her less for it I would let her know; that too was not a good thing as said a few other not nice things."

Is this a confession that you said not nice things? A person's response to and handling of a bad experience can either make it better, make it worse or become even worse that the original incident.

I would feel better if the client were to receive the pictures of the stone so that she could have something concrete to base her judgments about fair price and value on.

 

[mariedtiger]

I'm sitting here reading Chrono's and Dana's last posts, trying to come up with something to say. It feels important, so I'll say a few things. I'm glad Dana spoke up. I'm not as glad reading the tone of his reply, it seems unprofessional, sorry to say. I would hope that a vendor could keep the tone of answering a customer complaint cordial and neutral.

I'm glad to read that Chrono's answer is calm and polite, asking a few good questions.

What I would hope to see happen in this thread would be that the disappointed customer would receive some answers and possibly a solution to a disappointing situation.

 

[T L]

So that is my side of the story and anyone wanting un-doctored copies of the emails; just ask.

I honestly do not think you should be publicly offering to provide a customer's verbiage in an email without their permission. That's very unprofessional.

Both sides of the stories were told, that should suffice for this thread IMO.

 

[TravelingGal]

So that is my side of the story and anyone wanting un-doctored copies of the emails; just ask.

I honestly do not think you should be publicly offering to provide a customer's verbiage in an email without their permission. That's very unprofessional.

Both sides of the stories were told, that should suffice for this thread IMO.

Ditto. I recently had an unhappy experience with a vendor and didn't even post their emails because I feel it's not right to post that kind of stuff without permission. And to offer these emails to anyone? Not cool.

Re: price - it is an issue that it wasn't discussed. IMHO, I don't think one should just assume that the price will be similar. One should clarify. Unless you see the invoice for what the PSer paid, you can't even know exactly what the person paid. But Chrono has expressed that this was an error, and I commend her for her very diplomatic response.

 

[zeolite]

Chrono,
I understand why you feel upset. I would feel the same. I don’t think he is a good businessman.
But I have a very good understanding of his viewpoint. Regular PS readers may be aware that about 98% of my gem purchases are rough, not cut. I have a good understanding of the rough market.

PT: My point is, what you describe is not standard business behavior … It is not the behavior of an established, professional merchant.

Let me explain: Any retailer of any commodity, be it wine, blue jeans, or even white diamonds, has zero emotional attachment to his inventory. He knows what he has to pay, he knows what it sells for, and he can replace it in an instant with an identical product. It’s like looking up stock prices each morning. He also does not create it, he just peddles it.

Cutters have a strong attachment to their inventory, and cutting is a very time intensive task. It is not a high volume business. Indeed, a high percentage of the selling price of their cut gems, is their labor and their skill in unlocking the beauty from the rough crystal. It is not a readily replaceable item. I also think an ordinary plumber would make vastly more money per hour, than the finest Cutting Edge winner would earn on a superbly crafted gemstone.

The price of rough is insanely variable at any given time and over periods of more than a decade. Part of this is because the quantity from the mine varies greatly in time. Also the quantity and quality or rough purchased has a huge effect on how much the buyer has to pay, per unit crystal. In one gem show, I’ve seen rough citrine asking 6 times (600%) as much as a cut, finished citrine.

What he paid for it then is irrelevant. What matters is, what is the price now.

You may remember my (if I’m permitted to say) spectacular 18.80 ct asscher tanzanite. That crystal was purchased in the year 2000, at what seemed to be a fair price. In spite of its beauty, I’d have considerable difficulty selling it today in the wholesale cut market, for more than a small amount more than what I paid for the crystal in 2000 (early 2000 was a booming stock year, this is now Great Depression II). Meanwhile tanzanite crystals sell today for double or triple what I paid in 2000. Their rough price, relative to cut price, is so insane that I quit buying Tanzanite 10 years ago, and probably will never do so again.

VL: Do you think the keeping it for my own collection line was hype and part of a selling tactic to get you to swallow the unexpected price?

No, I think he really intends to keep it, not hype. I’d be insane to sell my tanzanite at today’s cut prices. Just hold and wait until the economy is booming and people are freely spending again.

Concerning double the price for what may be nearly an identical stone: In about 1989, I asked my mentor, Phillip Youngman, what he’d sell a cut gem from a crystal he had just bought and showed to me. Phillip Youngman is a superb, multiple AGTA Cutting Edge winner. He refused to even quote, and he explained: no cutter is exactly sure of how good or bad a cut stone will emerge from this crystal. If he quotes a rigid price and it turns out bad, it is overpriced and will not sell. If he quotes too low, he’s selling for way below its real worth.

 

[mastercutgems]

I do apologise for anything I said that may have upset anyone; I must learn to be more thick skinned.

For that I do apologise to you Chrono ...

As for pricing the stone; you really can not do that until you get the gem off the dop and evaluate the gem. After having to pay another cutter to do what she wanted it drove the cost up. Also not having any more of that rough that I could find at this time the gem became more valuable to me as a collector also. I did offer her the gem at significantly reduced price for the going rate. We could not reach an agreement so I decided to keep it for myself.

Yes Chrono is correct that it was 2 months as weeks was a typo.
I had to wait for Grey's schedule.

As to mentioning the emails yes that was wrong as I would not do that; it just quantified that I was not lying about what was said to me by Chrono.

I will not respond to this thread anymore as it will become a contest of wills and that is a waste of precious time.

I do apologise to anyone I may have offended and not acted in the utmost professional manner; it is not my nature.

Most respectfully;

Dana

 

[y2kitty]

I like you both, so I am just going to pretend I never read this thread.