August Vintage Lab grown diamonds poll

[WhatAboutTheCats]

Lab diamonds with a H color and flaws (SV1)..oh my. I look at what I am getting for the price. Sure a mined diamond of that size and quality would be a bargain if sold at the lab created price. But, IMHO comparing mined to lab created prices is not a fair comparison to justify the prices asked for the lab created diamonds. Lab diamonds sales are trying to target buyers with not a lot of $ for luxury goods, especially diamonds. As such they have to compete with CZ and Moissanite which sell nearly everywhere at bargain prices compared to mined diamonds or crappy color and quality diamonds that are still sold at a premium. Just like a cultured vs natural pearls, the distinction and pricing treatment should be different. If someone ( not the casual observer at the grocery store or work) admires your lab diamond do you tell them it is 'real but not mined', 'lab created' or 'not naturally made' and/or also that you paid less for the lab diamond or that your lab diamond is worth less than a mined diamond? IMHO, DeBeers and other diamond folks market these gems as 'diamonds' to justify the inflated mined diamond prices and to keep mined diamond prices at highly inflated prices but convincing the consumer that lab diamonds are worthy of a merely a small discount. I think that using the mined diamond price comparison to justify the lab pricing` is over inflating the price of lab diamonds...especially when the technology spreads and can't be controlled by DeBeers. Remember how expensive those digital Casio watches were when they first came out..same with calculators. Supply and demand...something that DeBeers knows a lot about. Again, I think the comparison is not fair. Say a Prada handbag sells for $10,000 in New York City at the Prada boutique. Next door a new handbag shop opens up and sells handbags that use the Prada name, design, leather, stitching etc, same workers etc. And that bag sells for $7000-a slight discount over the Prada bag sold at the Prada store. The only caveat is that the bag was not made at the Prada factory. Like a lab diamond, the product materials and look are the same, just made elsewhere. Also, like the lab diamond you inform folks that it is a Prada bag that did not come from the factory, was not bought at the Prada store so it was cheaper than a Prada bag, or it is a handbag made in the Prada design and materials but not by Prada. Is the $3000 discount enough for the disclaimer? Like Cubic Zirconia and Moissanite which are sold for far less than lab diamonds, there are a lot of pretty good fake Prada bags that sell well, well below the $7000 price in backrooms, alleys or on the street. The bags have(nearly) (almost) the same leather, stitching and markings/design. In other words they are the same as Prada but made and purchased elsewhere say for $500. Is that fake discount worth it when the casual observer makes inquiries about your bag? Also what are and will be the resale values of Lab vs. mined diamonds? Will they appreciate or fall victim to mass produced lab diamonds. So, will I be buying Lab diamonds? Nope. Perhaps when they eventually become mass produced and sell for CZ or Moissanite prices I would buy for costume jewelry.

Hmmmm I understand where your perspective comes from and I understand why you feel thus. I think your handbag analogy is misplaced though. Additionally, your tone is disparaging.


The growth pattern is different for lab grown diamonds but in all other respects that matter in chemistry, lab grown diamonds are diamonds. For many people who have a background in the sciences, or have a love for all things new in technology, there isn’t much of a mental block to viewing a lab diamond as just a diamond.


I understand why you would presume those who opt for lab-growns must be poor. The heuristic is that buying cheaper when there are more expensive (OG) options == must not have money. In actuality, it may be true, SOMETIMES. Because there certainly aren’t many lower income people who are buying a cheaper $10k diamond. (And please keep in mind the average and median net worth of Americans by age).


There are those who have a more limited budget and want the best possible for the price; I say more power to them. In other cases, many young people were traumatized by the last recession and thus plan to live conservatively (the tide went out and they saw many were swimming naked). And it is by living and spending conservatively that they are on their way to becoming high net worth individuals. There are a whole bunch of people who are high income and well on their way to becoming high net worth that you would never suspect — precisely because they spend much less than they can. So judging someone’s liquidity (since the single greatest asset of most Americans is their home) based on how much they spend, isn’t reliable once you are looking at middle to upper middle class groups.


And lastly, younger people have mostly fallen out of love with diamonds. Lab growns might be a way to get them interested again (the science, the fact that it’s supposed to be more eco friendly, and the newness of gem quality stones, and of course lower prices)


Don’t even get me started on the resale argument. Buy a $24,000 diamond and manage to sell it for $7000 and you’ve lost $17,000 (not to mention the opportunity cost of the cash). Buy a $6000 lab diamond, cannot sell it at all, and you’ve still only spent/lost $6000 (and lower opportunity cost). Diamonds aren’t investments. It’s a luxury item. And if purchased, IMO, shouldn’t be thought of as retaining much value. I don’t understand why the higher price of mined diamonds is considered to be value added. Do people enjoy diamonds for the high price or for the look?
If anyone wishes to make money off of diamonds, they should invest in diamond circuitry.

 

[molecule]

Am I the only one let down that there are no IS or ASET images?
Rhino is one of the pioneers of using those tools and while they are offered on the specialty cuts, they are missing on the LG stones. Those tools would be what would convince me pay what I see as a mark up over other lab grown diamonds. I don't need D color, I want optics evaluation.

 

[OoohShiny]

Am I the only one let down that there are no IS or ASET images?
Rhino is one of the pioneers of using those tools and while they are offered on the specialty cuts, they are missing on the LG stones. Those tools would be what would convince me pay what I see as a mark up over other lab grown diamonds. I don't need D color, I want optics evaluation.

Have you checked out the lab reports on the stones?

They include a range of assessments, including IS and (I think) ASET.

I was quite impressed by the comprehensive nature of the reports All the MRBs I looked at were AGS000, so from what I can tell, Rhino is rolling out high colour/high clarity/Ideal cut options to begin with.

 

[OoohShiny]

I saw the lab diamonds go up on August Vintage last nice and was mildly disappointed. None are August Vintage cuts. I was excited about a renowned cutter getting aboard the lab train, but I was imagining the branded ovals, antique cushions and old european cuts for a significant savings. These are generic and the prices are way too high. I think this is because the industry is still comparing a D/VS1 mined with the lab equivalent. But if it's as easy to grow a D as a G lab diamond, I don't think it should command the same premium as a mined D. I expect a lab stone to be high in color and clarity.

When you say 'generic', is that to say AGS000 MRB stones are generic?

I don't think we have any evidence as to whether D is or isn't more difficult to grow than a G, and therefore whether it costs the same (or VVS2 vs SI2 etc.) so I don't think we can say if a given price is 'too expensive'.

 

[vintageloves]

When you say 'generic', is that to say AGS000 MRB stones are generic?

I don't think we have any evidence as to whether D is or isn't more difficult to grow than a G, and therefore whether it costs the same (or VVS2 vs SI2 etc.) so I don't think we can say if a given price is 'too expensive'.

Generic, as in not a branded cut, like I said in my post. I was hoping for August Vintage cuts, not just a middleman situation selling stones but by someone else. And "too expensive" is a matter of opinion and I stand by mine. None of these offerings are the least bit tempting to me, that's all I'm saying.

But these are early days. Lab diamonds are going to get more popular, the offerings will get better, and I believe prices will come down as well. I was just overly hopeful because I'm personally in the market for a ring now. For those who have the patience, I only see a bright future.

 

[blueMA]

Generic, as in not a branded cut, like I said in my post. I was hoping for August Vintage cuts, not just a middleman situation selling stones but by someone else. And "too expensive" is a matter of opinion and I stand by mine. None of these offerings are the least bit tempting to me, that's all I'm saying.

But these are early days. Lab diamonds are going to get more popular, the offerings will get better, and I believe prices will come down as well. I was just overly hopeful because I'm personally in the market for a ring now. For those who have the patience, I only see a bright future.

If people don't mind lab diamonds, then they shouldn't mind moissanites - some are quite lovely and made very well nowadays. This, of course, would depend on whether a person is intent on passing a lab created diamond for a very costly natural mined diamond.

Consider getting a moissy for now and later "upgrade" to lab diamonds when they inevitably get much cheaper.

 

[bludiva]

If people don't mind lab diamonds, then they shouldn't mind moissanites - some are quite lovely and made very well nowadays. This, of course, would depend on whether a person is intent on passing a lab created diamond for a very costly natural mined diamond.

Consider getting a moissy for now and later "upgrade" to lab diamonds when they inevitably get much cheaper.

i like them all personally but i could see how someone may not like the refraction of even a high quality moissy and would have a strong preference for lab diamond vs moissanite

 

[blueMA]

may not like the refraction of even a high quality moissy

Some have strong dislikes for the double refraction because it's a dead giveaway that it's not a natural mined diamond. A typical mossiy stones do tend to look quite flat and glassy under some lighting situations, and I dislike that quality. Many people who choose a moissy for an engagement ring don't seem to mind that, because they don't care to pretend it's not a natural diamond.

Moissy stones have beautiful scintillation (lacking in CZs) and colorful rainbow fires that's quite mesmerizing under most lighting. If you put a moissy and a diamond in front of a child unaware of the perceived value of the stones, I'd assume most would prefer moissy.

 

[rockhoundofficiando]

If people don't mind lab diamonds, then they shouldn't mind moissanites - some are quite lovely and made very well nowadays.

Acceptance of a lab re-creation of a natural stone such as a diamond does not necessarily infer acceptance of a man created, ie artificial stone, such as a moissanite or cubic zirconia. Especially given the stigma associated with ersatz products.

 

[blueMA]

Acceptance of a lab re-creation of a natural stone such as a diamond does not necessarily infer acceptance of a man created stone such as a moissanite or cubic zirconia. Especially given the stigma associated with ersatz products.

Of course - as I've stated above it "would depend on whether a person is intent on passing a lab created diamond for a very costly natural mined diamond."

I've known people who prefer alternate gems strictly in order to boycott the mined diamond industry, but many don't go around wearing something that could be mistaken for one either especially when the choice was due to ethical/value/beliefs.

 

[MelloYello8]

Of course - as I've stated above it "would depend on whether a person is intent on passing a lab created diamond for a very costly natural mined diamond."

I've known people who prefer alternate gems strictly in order to boycott the mined diamond industry, but many don't go around wearing something that could be mistaken for one either especially when the choice was due to ethical/value/beliefs.

Except no other gemstones are as hard. As one of those boycotters, I picked out my engagement ring with a Chatham diamond when they weren’t much of a bargain compared to natural diamonds. Before I found out about lab diamonds, I had considered a sapphire as a center stone but was afraid it wouldn’t be hard enough for something I planned to wear indefinitely.

 

[blueMA]

My sapphires and rubies from over 20 years ago still look the same now, but yes although they're pretty hard at mohs scale of 9, they could get scratched up if one's not careful with them and it also depends on the setting and the person wearing them. I'm also very careful with my diamond e-ring because you'd be surprised how many people end up chipping their diamond on the girdle although they're pretty scratch resistant.

 

[Rpb]

@Rhino, will you be cutting any J to L AVC cushions in 1.5-2.0 CT in lab diamonds? Would like to know at what price range they would have...

 

[OoohShiny]

Hi vintageloves. **edited by moderator, no self promotion**
Kindest regards,
Rhino

Thanks for your replies, Rhino!


I think the second point touches on something previously discussed on the forum - personally speaking (and I don't think I am alone in this) I am hopeful that the cheaper cost of MMD rough (when compared to Mined rough) will mean:

- an increased focus on cut quality and light performance, because there is a lot less need to 'save' as much rough weight as possible in an attempt to create sustainable profit margins;

- more experimentation with new and exciting cuts, because it is not such a financial burden to risk MMD rough not working out; and

- the potential for skilled cutters and cut-designers to become 'names', so that consumers actively seek out their work and the price of a diamond is viewed more in terms of paying for the artisanal/skilled labour required to create a bespoke stone than the current focus on the rarity of a piece of carbon found by luck/judgement.


I am still hoping for the day that I can purchase an awesome-cut 2.5ct colourless VVS Asscher for Lightbox's $800/ct, of course but top-notch stones at half the equivalent Mined diamond price puts so many more options on the table for consumers, it is very exciting!

 

[MakingTheGrade]

@Rhino, will you be cutting any J to L AVC cushions in 1.5-2.0 CT in lab diamonds? Would like to know at what price range they would have...

Ditto, I would not at all mind some lower colored precision cut lab diamonds. I actually prefer lower colors in oecs and vintage cuts, and I don't think I"m the only PSer that feels that way given all the I and lower OECs over in the SMTB forum

 

[Rhino]

Happy Thanksgiving/Black Friday/Cyber Monday all!

Thanks for your replies, Rhino!


I think the second point touches on something previously discussed on the forum - personally speaking (and I don't think I am alone in this) I am hopeful that the cheaper cost of MMD rough (when compared to Mined rough) will mean:

- an increased focus on cut quality and light performance, because there is a lot less need to 'save' as much rough weight as possible in an attempt to create sustainable profit margins;

As you know this is my focus. In the past couple of years as I've always had access to lab grown I wasn't always crazy about the cutting quality and would even recut them to what I know is best. The people I am hooking up with think just like me and that's a good thing.

- more experimentation with new and exciting cuts, because it is not such a financial burden to risk MMD rough not working out; and

Yasss... As we are rolling out the AVC/AVR I'm also setting my sites on a vintage oval I've designed for my next project. I'd like to test it out on the less expensive material first of course.

- the potential for skilled cutters and cut-designers to become 'names', so that consumers actively seek out their work and the price of a diamond is viewed more in terms of paying for the artisanal/skilled labour required to create a bespoke stone than the current focus on the rarity of a piece of carbon found by luck/judgement.

Agreed.

I am still hoping for the day that I can purchase an awesome-cut 2.5ct colourless VVS Asscher for Lightbox's $800/ct, of course but top-notch stones at half the equivalent Mined diamond price puts so many more options on the table for consumers, it is very exciting!

It really is. I've already bugged my friends at DeBeers and even asked them if I can cut my AV stuff for Lightbox ... to no avail of course but I'm not letting that discourage me.

Ditto, I would not at all mind some lower colored precision cut lab diamonds. I actually prefer lower colors in oecs and vintage cuts, and I don't think I"m the only PSer that feels that way given all the I and lower OECs over in the SMTB forum

Yep. I haven't actually seen yet but am told I may be able to have lab rough grown in yellow tones as opposed to brownish so I'll be exploring this too.

Warm regards,
Rhino

 

[Rhino]

Ditto, I would not at all mind some lower colored precision cut lab diamonds. I actually prefer lower colors in oecs and vintage cuts, and I don't think I"m the only PSer that feels that way given all the I and lower OECs over in the SMTB forum

The material I'm going to be working with is of the CVD or chemical vapor deposition type. This growing technology produces lots of colorless. The only colors I've seen thus far in the lower colors have been brown ... some with pink undertones but I haven't seen with yellow undertones just yet although I'm told it can be done. I'll know more for sure this coming week.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

The material I'm going to be working with is of the CVD or chemical vapor deposition type. This growing technology produces lots of colorless. The only colors I've seen thus far in the lower colors have been brown ... some with pink undertones but I haven't seen with yellow undertones just yet although I'm told it can be done. I'll know more for sure this coming week.

Haha there’s also a thread in Rocky Talky that a decent number of pricescopers don’t mind a brown tint over a yellow one, if that’s of interest to you.

 

[Rhino]

the "champagne" tone ... no problem! CAN DO

 

[OoohShiny]

Happy Thanksgiving/Black Friday/Cyber Monday all!



As you know this is my focus. In the past couple of years as I've always had access to lab grown I wasn't always crazy about the cutting quality and would even recut them to what I know is best. The people I am hooking up with think just like me and that's a good thing.



Yasss... As we are rolling out the AVC/AVR I'm also setting my sites on a vintage oval I've designed for my next project. I'd like to test it out on the less expensive material first of course.


Agreed.



It really is. I've already bugged my friends at DeBeers and even asked them if I can cut my AV stuff for Lightbox ... to no avail of course but I'm not letting that discourage me.



Yep. I haven't actually seen yet but am told I may be able to have lab rough grown in yellow tones as opposed to brownish so I'll be exploring this too.

Warm regards,
Rhino

This is all cool stuff! I applaud your hard work and look forward to what's coming next

 

[OboeGal]

Yasss... As we are rolling out the AVC/AVR I'm also setting my sites on a vintage oval I've designed for my next project. I'd like to test it out on the less expensive material first of course.

@Rhino, how do you keep reading my mind? First the ideal antique cuts in MMD, and now an antique oval? It just keeps getting better and better - so exciting!

 

[OoohShiny]

Loads more stock has arrived!

Mostly MRBs but a nice selection

 

[elliefire99]

H
Yasss... As we are rolling out the AVC/AVR I'm also setting my sites on a vintage oval I've designed for my next project. I'd like to test it out on the less expensive material first of course.

Yaaaaassssss. This just made my week! Ideal antique fancy cuts! My dreams have become a reality. The Opulence absolutely knocks my socks off, but too splintery and modern for my own collection. Perhaps my long search for the perfect old pear/oval will finally come to an end.

 

[OoohShiny]

Rhino, may I ask if there will be a line of smaller stones (say 0.3ct, 0.5ct, 0.75ct) with AGS000 specs?

As a colour- and clarity-freak with a limited budget, I like the idea of not having to spend $$$$ to buy a pair of high colour. VS+, very modestly sized 0.5ct studs for my good lady! lol

 

[Rhino]

Rhino, may I ask if there will be a line of smaller stones (say 0.3ct, 0.5ct, 0.75ct) with AGS000 specs?

As a colour- and clarity-freak with a limited budget, I like the idea of not having to spend $$$$ to buy a pair of high colour. VS+, very modestly sized 0.5ct studs for my good lady! lol

in which shape Shiny?

 

[AV_]

The material I'm going to be working with is of the CVD or chemical vapor deposition type.

May I ask what the rough looks like?

 

[OoohShiny]

in which shape Shiny?

D'oh! Sorry, I meant MRBs

I guess that any of the larger-facet vintage cuts might not really 'work' at that sort of size, because the facet pattern would be too small to really notice??

(Although 'in the old days', vintage faceting was all that was available and performed just fine in the lighting of the time?! lol)


EDIT:
I suppose I'm tilting at the possibility of options that would rival the Lightbox offerings but actually have a guaranteed quality of cut, rather than the (deliberately? hmmm!) somewhat leaky Lightbox stones?

I know that it is very likely your pricing would need to be higher than the $800/ct Lightbox has rolled out, but then us PSers are already used to the concept of paying a little bit more for better cut and guaranteed light performance lol, and who wouldn't want a pair of AGS000 H+ VS+ studs for not that much more than a Lightbox offering in an equivalent size?

 

[Rhino]

May I ask what the rough looks like?

You sure may! Here is the rough the 1.51ct F VS2 AVC was cut from.

 

[Rhino]

Hi OS.

D'oh! Sorry, I meant MRBs

I guess that any of the larger-facet vintage cuts might not really 'work' at that sort of size, because the facet pattern would be too small to really notice??

No way! You can definitely and distinctly see it in the smaller goodies!

(Although 'in the old days', vintage faceting was all that was available and performed just fine in the lighting of the time?! lol)


EDIT:
I suppose I'm tilting at the possibility of options that would rival the Lightbox offerings but actually have a guaranteed quality of cut, rather than the (deliberately? hmmm!) somewhat leaky Lightbox stones?

LOL I hear you. From what I hear the Lightbox options are extremely limited and yes ... nothing on cut.

I know that it is very likely your pricing would need to be higher than the $800/ct Lightbox has rolled out, but then us PSers are already used to the concept of paying a little bit more for better cut and guaranteed light performance lol, and who wouldn't want a pair of AGS000 H+ VS+ studs for not that much more than a Lightbox offering in an equivalent size?

There ya go. You can bet I'll be keeping abreast with the trends and if pricing or things change I'll be there to roll with it. The less expensive material will also allow me to experiment more freely with new concepts I have on que as well. 2019 is going to be an exciting year.

Kindest regards,
Rhino

 

[OoohShiny]

Thank you for the detailed reply!

I'm excited to see what is on the near horizon