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OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
6,855
Ace, thanks for posting!
 

molecule

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
154
I've been following Takara for a while, but their story doesn't quite seem to line up.
Initially, BTD declared that they were one of the few HPHT grown diamonds (which is still on their website)

And now that an independent lab has certified that their stones are CVD grown, this claim has mostly fallen off of their website (although not entirely).
cvd.JPG
Most of their reports per the AV site can't be found currently on the IGI website.

I do appreciate the H&A designation, but I've seen no images that collaborate that statement and per prior Pricescope links,

Basically the cutter/supplier can have h&a or anything they want inscribed on a diamond, they might feel that in their eyes this diamond shows what they consider to be excellent h&a, however if you have a look at the article I posted you will soon see that because a diamond might show h&a, it isn't necessarily up to the strict standards needed to be a true example of this cutting style - hence images are essential.
 

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OboeGal

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
310
I've been following Takara for a while, but their story doesn't quite seem to line up.
Initially, BTD declared that they were one of the few HPHT grown diamonds (which is still on their website)

And now that an independent lab has certified that their stones are CVD grown, this claim has mostly fallen off of their website (although not entirely).
cvd.JPG
Most of their reports per the AV site can't be found currently on the IGI website.

I do appreciate the H&A designation, but I've seen no images that collaborate that statement and per prior Pricescope links,
Yes - I noticed this too when I saw the certificates! Also, the crown and pavilion angles I'm seeing on the certificates don't match what Less said they would be in their forum, and don't look to be angles that would make for true hearts & arrows based on all the charts of complementary angles I've seen. I have to say, I've not been impressed with their offerings so far. I can find stones with better angles at Brilliant Earth or Clean Origin for comparable or better prices.
 

DoeEyes

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
601
Excuse my ignorance, but are you just saying that the cut may not be up to the standard they're claiming, or that they are lying about the actual chemical make-up, or lying about the measurements/angles? I'm considering buying one of their lab-grown diamonds that doesn't have a cert and has higher inclusion so it's super cheap. I emailed asking for the angles/measurements and waiting for that now but they said it's eye-clean and it's a D color so I'm excited.
 

molecule

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
154
If you buy from Jon, I would ask for hearts and arrow images to back up their claims of the stones being H&A. As a side note, hearts and arrows does not imply that the light performance of the diamond is good, just that the pattern of the cut generates the hearts and arrows pattern.

The make up of HPHT and CVD is supposed to be the same, however BTD made claims previously that the reason their MMDs were superior was that they were HPHT and lacked strain. I haven't been able to confirm many of the claims they make (HPHT, H&A, cut) with reports from an external lab, but I haven't dived into their boards.
 

Bluery

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 30, 2014
Messages
45
Jon will be honest about what any diamond in his possession looks like if you ask him about it. Also, I got my custom cut mmd from August Vintage and there’s no strain, or grain, or lines, or whatever it’s called!
 

OboeGal

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
310
What we're saying is that, as stated above, they had claimed that their stones showed no strain because they were made by the HPHT process, but when I looked at the certificates for a couple of them, the certificates stated that those were both made by the CVD process. When I looked at the angles for them, they were not bad angles, and might still constitute a reasonably nice-looking stone, but they were not angles that would constitute something being called "super-ideal", and based on the charts I've seen of angles that would create true hearts and arrows, they fell outside that range. Of course, without the proper images, one can't be certain of light performance or how close the pattern comes to hearts and arrows. For me personally, when I considered this info along with the price, it was enough to decide not to purchase from them, since I'm looking for the best light performance I can get in a lab stone, and found stones with better angles at the same price elsewhere. For you, @frogplus, since you've been happy with the light performance of your smaller Lightbox stone and are simply looking for a larger stone that has nice light performance without needing it to be real super-ideal level, and with certain budget constraints, it could be that they have a stone that would fit that bill quite nicely. I would just suggest being cautious in your dealings with them, making sure that they provide all the info you ask for concerning proportions, hearts & arrow imaging, light performance, etc., and that you are happy with the return policy.
 

greencb

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Messages
3
BTD is using a different supplier (suppliers maybe?) for this large batch. My guess that's why they're CVD not HPHT.

You'll notice the exact same stock blue and white H&A image @molecule posted on many of the IGI certs. The "photo enlarged" image is also a stock photo. My guess is IGI allows arbitrary "comments" and even images on the cert. Hopefully not an intentional misrepresentation. (My guess is cost cutting.)

With all that said, I'm currently working with Jonathan from August Vintage on sourcing a Takara or other ideal cut lab diamond. He's been awesome so far.

He will be providing me video, ASET, idealscope, Sarin & more for no cost above the BTD prices:

IMO, this service mitigates the unknowns of buying one of these with pretty much no information (really only the dimensions on the IGI cert is what you'd be going by).

Will keep this thread up-to-date as he gets back to me with these analyses.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,254
Good evening everyone. yeah I had spoken to BTD about these and it appears there is a "default" Hearts & Arrows image on each of these reports. Forgive my skepticism but when I see default images I always suspect they're never all identical UNLESS they are/were using actual ray traced H&A images based on an actual scan of the diamond in question which I am able to easily do here in my lab coupled with real H&A images.

So... the diamonds you see posted there or more particularly on my site I will personally vette. If you check my latest video you'll get an idea of the type of analysis I'm going to be doing now on each of the diamonds that come across my eyes which include a heckuva lot more than H&A images. I also have the capability to inspect for strain and grain which I'll also be looking at. If you guys have any questions feel free to ask.

All the best,
Rhino
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
6,855
Good evening everyone. yeah I had spoken to BTD about these and it appears there is a "default" Hearts & Arrows image on each of these reports. Forgive my skepticism but when I see default images I always suspect they're never all identical UNLESS they are/were using actual ray traced H&A images based on an actual scan of the diamond in question which I am able to easily do here in my lab coupled with real H&A images.

So... the diamonds you see posted there or more particularly on my site I will personally vette. If you check my latest video you'll get an idea of the type of analysis I'm going to be doing now on each of the diamonds that come across my eyes which include a heckuva lot more than H&A images. I also have the capability to inspect for strain and grain which I'll also be looking at. If you guys have any questions feel free to ask.

All the best,
Rhino
Thanks as always for your efforts, Rhino :))

I think this sort of situation highlights how the MMD market needs to develop to be more in line with the Mined market, in terms of greater transparency at the grower and supplier end (be they the same entity or separate), and through improved analysis and presentation of all (all!) relevant information.

Vendors such as yourself can create and add value by the excellent work you do on the latter of those things :)) but if you (and all of us) are being let down by substandard or even misleading information from the suppliers/growers, it creates unnecessary work and breeds distrust in the diamond industry in general, which has hardly been the paragon of trust in the past, what with opaque pricing and similar before the internet! lol
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,254
Thanks as always for your efforts, Rhino :))

I think this sort of situation highlights how the MMD market needs to develop to be more in line with the Mined market, in terms of greater transparency at the grower and supplier end (be they the same entity or separate), and through improved analysis and presentation of all (all!) relevant information.

Vendors such as yourself can create and add value by the excellent work you do on the latter of those things :)) but if you (and all of us) are being let down by substandard or even misleading information from the suppliers/growers, it creates unnecessary work and breeds distrust in the diamond industry in general, which has hardly been the paragon of trust in the past, what with opaque pricing and similar before the internet! lol
Agree 100%. I actually look forward to a lot of work taking consumers behind the curtain on these, the consistency and grading standards of IGI (which is also somewhat of a mystery) and showing how it all translates to the standards we have seen develop and come to know over the past 2 decades.
 

greencb

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Messages
3
Thanks as always for your efforts, Rhino :))

I think this sort of situation highlights how the MMD market needs to develop to be more in line with the Mined market, in terms of greater transparency at the grower and supplier end (be they the same entity or separate), and through improved analysis and presentation of all (all!) relevant information.

Vendors such as yourself can create and add value by the excellent work you do on the latter of those things :)) but if you (and all of us) are being let down by substandard or even misleading information from the suppliers/growers, it creates unnecessary work and breeds distrust in the diamond industry in general, which has hardly been the paragon of trust in the past, what with opaque pricing and similar before the internet! lol
Transparency is exactly why a young buyer like myself will only buy a grown diamond. The ethical and environmental issues around mining drive demand for conscience-clean gems.

I think there's more room for more transparency around production processes, working conditions, energy sources, etc. even in the MMD industry. Diamond Foundry appear to win in this marketing game, with Leonardo di Caprio being an investor and spokesman being a big draw.
 

MelloYello8

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2018
Messages
151
Little Switzerland has a Valentine’s Day sale for some items including 1 ctw studs that would be a little cheaper than lightbox with the code VDAY2020


But this caught my eye. If only I could pull that off.

14K White Gold 4.70CTTW Ice Blue and White Lab Grown Diamond Flower Cocktail Ring

 
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