Assher dilemma (with Video)

[diagem]

Date: 9/24/2007 5:20:15 PM
Author: gontama

Hi DiaGem - Please correct me if I misunderstand anything.

I think the video was taken to help the client, who thanks for the service provided, more informed of the diamonds being considered for purchase. If the client thinks, or will find future, that it was indeed a misleading presentation, we will know. It is hard for me to believe that a reputable vendor takes that risk.

No one mentioned anything about "misleading presentation"..., and BTW..., the video was also taken as a tool to help sell!!!

If it were used to compare a diamond the vendor carries against other diamonds offered by another vendor, it can be unfair. However it is provided to help the client compare the diamonds the same vendor offer. And the vendor said that the vide represents (not the same) the difference in appearance of these diamonds.

Or help sell!!!

I consider this a professional attempt to deliver services to the client in the best possible way the vendor can. From my experience, I can say that the vendor will not mislead clients. I think it does not matter to the vendor which stone gets sold. It probably doesn not even matter if none of them is sold after all. The vendor was honest and open enough even to discourage a diamond I had in mind because he does not think it meets my requirements.

Again..., no one said anything about "mislead[ing] clients"

I agree with Ellen 100%. It it were made by somebody else, many questions are reasoanble. When provided by a very trusted vendor as part of the information on the diamonds the clients are considering however, I do not see anything wrong here.

No one said it was wrong..., i read an emphasis on small "part of the information"...

I remember the former admin of the forum said this forum is for consumers and I assume the same principle applies now - Instead of limitation of the service method being offered by a vendor, I would rather like to hear a professional suggestion to improve the efficiency etc., if possible.

Please allow me not to comment!!! I am certain the new "admin" will comment if he chooses.



Sincerely.

And by keeping this forum balanced ethically..., readers like yourself can educate themselves as well as making a wise and trusty purchases....
But if readers like yourself decide to turn a small mouse into an elephant..., this forum will loose its objectivity!!!

I guess there are two sides to a coin

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I really don''t care about what variety of lighting he uses. I find the video extremely useful in seeing the whole package of the stone in comparison to other stones. That Asscher video clearly helped me see which stone I liked as far as table size, shape, etc. I realize Jon can''t duplicate my backyard-in-the-shade environment or my personal kitchen lighting environment. But what the video does do is make something real as opposed just presenting a bunch of numbers. It allows me to choose with more information than looking at three certs or still photos. Then I can order a stone and STILL have 30 days to return it if I don''t like it in my backyard-in-the-shade environment or my kitchen lighting environment. I liked Wink''s gemstone sessions on here and I like Jon''s diamond videos. They are all helpful. I understand that no presentation over the computer screen, including the PS ones, are going to be as informative as having the stone in my possession. It certainly is wonderful to see these previews, though!

Great job, Jon!

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/23/2007 7:12:37 AM
Author: DiaGem

On another note: Why have I not seen any Asscher Cut manufacturers submit their Asschers for AGS reports? All I see are GIA reports on Asschers....

Back to the subject...


Can anyone tell me if there is a difference in the asking price between a GIA ex-ex and an AGS 0 Asscher?

 

[gontama]

Date: 9/24/2007 5:52:04 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 9/24/2007 5:20:15 PM
Author: gontama

Hi DiaGem - Please correct me if I misunderstand anything.

I think the video was taken to help the client, who thanks for the service provided, more informed of the diamonds being considered for purchase. If the client thinks, or will find future, that it was indeed a misleading presentation, we will know. It is hard for me to believe that a reputable vendor takes that risk.

No one mentioned anything about ''misleading presentation''..., and BTW..., the video was also taken as a tool to help sell!!!

If it were used to compare a diamond the vendor carries against other diamonds offered by another vendor, it can be unfair. However it is provided to help the client compare the diamonds the same vendor offer. And the vendor said that the vide represents (not the same) the difference in appearance of these diamonds.

Or help sell!!!

I consider this a professional attempt to deliver services to the client in the best possible way the vendor can. From my experience, I can say that the vendor will not mislead clients. I think it does not matter to the vendor which stone gets sold. It probably doesn not even matter if none of them is sold after all. The vendor was honest and open enough even to discourage a diamond I had in mind because he does not think it meets my requirements.

Again..., no one said anything about ''mislead[ing] clients''

I agree with Ellen 100%. It it were made by somebody else, many questions are reasoanble. When provided by a very trusted vendor as part of the information on the diamonds the clients are considering however, I do not see anything wrong here.

No one said it was wrong..., i read an emphasis on small ''part of the information''...

I remember the former admin of the forum said this forum is for consumers and I assume the same principle applies now - Instead of limitation of the service method being offered by a vendor, I would rather like to hear a professional suggestion to improve the efficiency etc., if possible.

Please allow me not to comment!!! I am certain the new ''admin'' will comment if he chooses.



Sincerely.

And by keeping this forum balanced ethically..., readers like yourself can educate themselves as well as making a wise and trusty purchases....
But if readers like yourself decide to turn a small mouse into an elephant..., this forum will loose its objectivity!!!

I guess there are two sides to a coin

The word "misleading" might sound too strong. But "limitation" can very well imply something similar. If the limitation can be elimiated or reduced in some way, that is what I wanted to know and Gary suggested one.

I think the video is of course for sales. Every vendor does variety of things for sales. Logical to me.

I chose to voice because the responses to the video "seem" to imply "to me" more negative things than positive, as if it were better if the vendor had not made the video for the client. I wanted to see professional ideas, whether it is for sales or not, on how to capture diamonds'' appearance more effectively, or in a way this forum reamains focused on its mission.

Sorry to bother you again. I will shut my mouse now on.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/24/2007 6:21:38 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 9/23/2007 7:12:37 AM
Author: DiaGem

On another note: Why have I not seen any Asscher Cut manufacturers submit their Asschers for AGS reports? All I see are GIA reports on Asschers....

Back to the subject...


Can anyone tell me if there is a difference in the asking price between a GIA ex-ex and an AGS 0 Asscher?

There are 0 AGS0 asschers in the pricescope database so hard too say.
I doubt it by looking at AGS software results that there will be any premium over the premium already applied to well cut stones.

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/24/2007 6:25:46 PM
Author: gontama


The word 'misleading' might sound too strong. But 'limitation' can very well imply something similar. If the limitation can be elimiated or reduced in some way, that is what I wanted to know and Gary suggested one.

All it takes is one word sometimes..., please dont forget this forum lives on a "writing" type of communication..., its a whole lot difference than a verbal one...

I think the video is of course for sales. Every vendor does variety of things for sales. Logical to me.

But is also to make you better understand the product itself...

I chose to voice because the responses to the video 'seem' to imply 'to me' more negative things than positive, as if it were better if the vendor had not made the video for the client. I wanted to see professional ideas, whether it is for sales or not, on how to capture diamonds' appearance more effectively, or in a way this forum reamains focused on its mission.

And as I read it..., that's exactly what you got...

Sorry to bother you again. I will shut my mouse now on.

You and others have the luxury to direct communicate with true Diamond and Jewelry experts here on PS...
I dont know any of them personally..., but I will say that in my (professional) opinion and from three years of constant communications here on PS..., I find myself impressed by their knowledge and at the same time learning tons.

Try to avoid off-tracking professional arguments..., if we let these arguments stay on a professional level..., the information coming out is priceless!!!

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/24/2007 6:48:31 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/24/2007 6:21:38 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 9/23/2007 7:12:37 AM
Author: DiaGem

On another note: Why have I not seen any Asscher Cut manufacturers submit their Asschers for AGS reports? All I see are GIA reports on Asschers....

Back to the subject...


Can anyone tell me if there is a difference in the asking price between a GIA ex-ex and an AGS 0 Asscher?

There are 0 AGS0 asschers in the pricescope database so hard too say.
I doubt it by looking at AGS software results that there will be any premium over the premium already applied to well cut stones.

Storm, are there any AGS Asschers in the database?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/24/2007 7:01:01 PM
Author: DiaGem
Storm, are there any AGS Asschers in the database?

3 that I found and they are woofers all 3 are not 0 canidates and have the reports with no grade.

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/24/2007 7:03:16 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/24/2007 7:01:01 PM
Author: DiaGem
Storm, are there any AGS Asschers in the database?

3 that I found and they are woofers all 3 are not 0 canidates and have the reports with no grade.

Weird

 

[gontama]

For you only and is the last one.

Date: 9/24/2007 6:55:56 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 9/24/2007 6:25:46 PM
Author: gontama


The word 'misleading' might sound too strong. But 'limitation' can very well imply something similar. If the limitation can be elimiated or reduced in some way, that is what I wanted to know and Gary suggested one.

All it takes is one word sometimes..., please dont forget this forum lives on a 'writing' type of communication..., its a whole lot difference than a verbal one...

That is exactly what I sensed from the responses to the video. Actually this is not for you though.

I think the video is of course for sales. Every vendor does variety of things for sales. Logical to me.

But is also to make you better understand the product itself...

And the video in question is also for that purpose too. Right?

I chose to voice because the responses to the video 'seem' to imply 'to me' more negative things than positive, as if it were better if the vendor had not made the video for the client. I wanted to see professional ideas, whether it is for sales or not, on how to capture diamonds' appearance more effectively, or in a way this forum reamains focused on its mission.

And as I read it..., that's exactly what you got...

I may not be only me who thinks that we got much more than necessary, and I am not sure if we got every professional suggestion.

Sorry to bother you again. I will shut my mouse now on.

You and others have the luxury to direct communicate with true Diamond and Jewelry experts here on PS...
I dont know any of them personally...,

Sorry about that. Cannot help. Try contact some if you like.

but I will say that in my (professional) opinion and from three years of constant communications here on PS..., I find myself impressed by their knowledge and at the same time learning tons.

Good for you and also for all. No one would disagree with you.

Try to avoid off-tracking professional arguments..., if we let these arguments stay on a professional level..., the information coming out is priceless!!!

Again who said otherwise? I do not mean to get into professtional arguments. The way they are provided are not probably the best. The difference between the professional opinion and the way it gets delivered. Hope you understand that.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/24/2007 7:08:40 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 9/24/2007 7:03:16 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/24/2007 7:01:01 PM
Author: DiaGem
Storm, are there any AGS Asschers in the database?

3 that I found and they are woofers all 3 are not 0 canidates and have the reports with no grade.

Weird

Not really surprising.

It is very difficult to achieve AGS ideal polish and symmetry at the same time because of the number of facets that will require polishing very close to the (111) octahedral crystal plane.

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/24/2007 7:36:03 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 9/24/2007 7:08:40 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 9/24/2007 7:03:16 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/24/2007 7:01:01 PM
Author: DiaGem
Storm, are there any AGS Asschers in the database?

3 that I found and they are woofers all 3 are not 0 canidates and have the reports with no grade.

Weird

Not really surprising.

It is very difficult to achieve AGS ideal polish and symmetry at the same time because of the number of facets that will require polishing very close to the (111) octahedral crystal plane.

Whats the difference between AGS Ideal and GIA ex-ex polish and symmetry?

Garry, it doesnt make sense that you would be required to polish the Pav-1 step at the natural crystal angle..., there should be a range!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/24/2007 12:41:36 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/24/2007 12:18:35 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/23/2007 9:20:16 AM
Author: Ellen
All I ever hear are accolades....from the people putting out the big bucks...I think that pretty much says it all.

This kind of amuses me, sorry if I seem rude. It reminds me of a certain diet that every one was raving about for many years, especially the ones who spend the big bucks to go to special spa''s to use it.

When people started having health problems it took a few years still for it to fall out of favor. The only ones speaking up against it were professional nutritionists...

While I agree that the videos might have merrit, they also have questions. If I had the time and the inclination I could go get a camera and set up my lights to show a different result. The fact that I could makes me nervous when such videos are stated to be the end all and be all of diamond shopping. While they might be great, they also leave a question in my mind.

Wink

I fully expected someone to respond as you did Wink. Yes, in a way it does appear rude, because it is insinuating that all his customers are idiots who wouldn''t know a good diamond from a bad one.

What else appears rude, among other things, to me, are insinuations that Jon is misinforming his customers to make a sale. I think it''s pretty well known on here that he sells quality diamonds. I think it''s also pretty well known on here he is an honest, upstanding vendor. There is more than one thread that will show that. I think he is genuinely trying to help the buyer. He stated he has compared the lighting he uses with real life, and found them to give comperable results. I believe him, because I believe he is an honest person, with good intentions.

If the vids were coming from someone questionable, who sells questionable goods, I would be questioning them too.


And I don''t recall any of us saying these vids are the ''be all, end all'' of shopping online. We just said they help.

Ist, I am not insinuating anything. You stated that the people putting out the big bucks had spoken and thus it is so. I dissagree.

I say that the videos might be useful and they can be abused and thus should be viewed with the end in mind that the stones can be selected for further viewing with the eye.

Jon and I have been competitors and friends for many years, and I totally agree that he sells very nice diamonds. There are threads and threads where Jon and I have been in agreement. I also dissagree with him about some issues and there are threads and threads full of our dissagreements. In NONE of them will you find me insinuating anything. If I dissagree with him I will just flat out state it.

I certainly did not insinuate that his clients were idiots. I reserve the right to dissagree with him, or with anyone else when I believe that there is a question to the repeatability or the efficacy of the process, just as I did and still do with the Brilliancescope. I have questions in my mind about the videos as I know what can be done with lighting, whether intentional or not. This has nothing to do with Jon or his integrity, and everything to do with the technology being used at this time.

Wink

P.S. I am an equal opportunity speculator, I would question these videos no matter who was doing them, even if it were me.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/24/2007 1:34:10 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/24/2007 12:18:35 PM
Author: Wink

This kind of amuses me, sorry if I seem rude. It reminds me of a certain diet that every one was raving about for many years, especially the ones who spend the big bucks to go to special spa''s to use it.

When people started having health problems it took a few years still for it to fall out of favor. The only ones speaking up against it were professional nutritionists...

While I agree that the videos might have merrit, they also have questions. If I had the time and the inclination I could go get a camera and set up my lights to show a different result. The fact that I could makes me nervous when such videos are stated to be the end all and be all of diamond shopping. While they might be great, they also leave a question in my mind.

Wink

Glass houses Wink...
vids using the online presentation was fine and dandy for you.
The only one claiming they are the end all is you and Garry.
Frankly I''m tired of the sniping.
Im not the only one that is tired of it either.

Hmmm, not at all the same my friend.

First, I AM NOT SNIPING, I am dissagreeing.

Second, Go watch a few of my video presentations and you will constantly hear me telling you that this looks better than real life or worse than real life, or the color is not what I see in front of me, or I am moving the lights now to create a different view. I made NO EFFORT to say that the monocular view I was presenting was the view that you will see in real life, just not possible with a monocular view, unfortunately. I am dearly looking forward to the time when I can put a diamond in a binocular view 3 d video that will show it the way I see it here, THEN we will have a tool that both informs and can be used to say "This is what this diamond looks like in my incandescent lighting/fluorescent lighting/outdoor in the shadelighting/outdoor in the sun lighting."

Dang, that last one just fried my duo quad 3-D ten thousand megahertz equalizer chip...

Wink

P.S. I wish others had joined us on the online presentations and I wish they were still going on, they were a LOT of fun, but sadly under utilized.

P.P.S. If you are tired of the sniping then it must be someone other than me. I am not sniping, I am dissagreeing. If you are tired of dissagreeing, then I am sorry, but I will dissagree or agree with someone based on what I believe to be the correct science involved with the issue. Heck, you and I have dissagreed on probably as many issues as we have agreed on, and I don''t remember ever taking it personally. I think polite dissagreement and discussion of issues is what makes this forum the strongest, most informative diamonds and gems website on the planet!

 

[gontama]

Date: 9/24/2007 8:34:46 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/24/2007 12:41:36 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/24/2007 12:18:35 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/23/2007 9:20:16 AM
Author: Ellen
All I ever hear are accolades....from the people putting out the big bucks...I think that pretty much says it all.

This kind of amuses me, sorry if I seem rude. It reminds me of a certain diet that every one was raving about for many years, especially the ones who spend the big bucks to go to special spa''s to use it.

When people started having health problems it took a few years still for it to fall out of favor. The only ones speaking up against it were professional nutritionists...

While I agree that the videos might have merrit, they also have questions. If I had the time and the inclination I could go get a camera and set up my lights to show a different result. The fact that I could makes me nervous when such videos are stated to be the end all and be all of diamond shopping. While they might be great, they also leave a question in my mind.

Wink

I fully expected someone to respond as you did Wink. Yes, in a way it does appear rude, because it is insinuating that all his customers are idiots who wouldn''t know a good diamond from a bad one.

What else appears rude, among other things, to me, are insinuations that Jon is misinforming his customers to make a sale. I think it''s pretty well known on here that he sells quality diamonds. I think it''s also pretty well known on here he is an honest, upstanding vendor. There is more than one thread that will show that. I think he is genuinely trying to help the buyer. He stated he has compared the lighting he uses with real life, and found them to give comperable results. I believe him, because I believe he is an honest person, with good intentions.

If the vids were coming from someone questionable, who sells questionable goods, I would be questioning them too.


And I don''t recall any of us saying these vids are the ''be all, end all'' of shopping online. We just said they help.

Ist, I am not insinuating anything. You stated that the people putting out the big bucks had spoken and thus it is so. I dissagree.

I say that the videos might be useful and they can be abused and thus should be viewed with the end in mind that the stones can be selected for further viewing with the eye.

Jon and I have been competitors and friends for many years, and I totally agree that he sells very nice diamonds. There are threads and threads where Jon and I have been in agreement. I also dissagree with him about some issues and there are threads and threads full of our dissagreements. In NONE of them will you find me insinuating anything. If I dissagree with him I will just flat out state it.

I certainly did not insinuate that his clients were idiots. I reserve the right to dissagree with him, or with anyone else when I believe that there is a question to the repeatability or the efficacy of the process, just as I did and still do with the Brilliancescope. I have questions in my mind about the videos as I know what can be done with lighting, whether intentional or not. This has nothing to do with Jon or his integrity, and everything to do with the technology being used at this time.

Wink

P.S. I am an equal opportunity speculator, I would question these videos no matter who was doing them, even if it were me.

There are things that cannot be done with video. There are also things that cannot be done without video. I would have felt exactly the same if someone commmented on your video the way it got responded to. I think you or anyone have right (or may be duty as professionals? Sorry if I am wrong) to ponit out what can be overlooked. But some may not even notice the benefit of the video depending on how it gets criticized. Wish you understand that I am not complaninig about you.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/24/2007 8:51:14 PM
Author: gontama

Date: 9/24/2007 8:34:46 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/24/2007 12:41:36 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/24/2007 12:18:35 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/23/2007 9:20:16 AM
Author: Ellen
All I ever hear are accolades....from the people putting out the big bucks...I think that pretty much says it all.

This kind of amuses me, sorry if I seem rude. It reminds me of a certain diet that every one was raving about for many years, especially the ones who spend the big bucks to go to special spa''s to use it.

When people started having health problems it took a few years still for it to fall out of favor. The only ones speaking up against it were professional nutritionists...

While I agree that the videos might have merrit, they also have questions. If I had the time and the inclination I could go get a camera and set up my lights to show a different result. The fact that I could makes me nervous when such videos are stated to be the end all and be all of diamond shopping. While they might be great, they also leave a question in my mind.

Wink

I fully expected someone to respond as you did Wink. Yes, in a way it does appear rude, because it is insinuating that all his customers are idiots who wouldn''t know a good diamond from a bad one.

What else appears rude, among other things, to me, are insinuations that Jon is misinforming his customers to make a sale. I think it''s pretty well known on here that he sells quality diamonds. I think it''s also pretty well known on here he is an honest, upstanding vendor. There is more than one thread that will show that. I think he is genuinely trying to help the buyer. He stated he has compared the lighting he uses with real life, and found them to give comperable results. I believe him, because I believe he is an honest person, with good intentions.

If the vids were coming from someone questionable, who sells questionable goods, I would be questioning them too.


And I don''t recall any of us saying these vids are the ''be all, end all'' of shopping online. We just said they help.

Ist, I am not insinuating anything. You stated that the people putting out the big bucks had spoken and thus it is so. I dissagree.

I say that the videos might be useful and they can be abused and thus should be viewed with the end in mind that the stones can be selected for further viewing with the eye.

Jon and I have been competitors and friends for many years, and I totally agree that he sells very nice diamonds. There are threads and threads where Jon and I have been in agreement. I also dissagree with him about some issues and there are threads and threads full of our dissagreements. In NONE of them will you find me insinuating anything. If I dissagree with him I will just flat out state it.

I certainly did not insinuate that his clients were idiots. I reserve the right to dissagree with him, or with anyone else when I believe that there is a question to the repeatability or the efficacy of the process, just as I did and still do with the Brilliancescope. I have questions in my mind about the videos as I know what can be done with lighting, whether intentional or not. This has nothing to do with Jon or his integrity, and everything to do with the technology being used at this time.

Wink

P.S. I am an equal opportunity speculator, I would question these videos no matter who was doing them, even if it were me.

There are things that cannot be done with video. There are also things that cannot be done without video. I would have felt exactly the same if someone commmented on your video the way it got responded to. I think you or anyone have right (or may be duty as professionals? Sorry if I am wrong) to ponit out what can be overlooked. But some may not even notice the benefit of the video depending on how it gets criticized. Wish you understand that I am not complaninig about you.

I do. I do not take these dissagreements personally, as I believe them to be part and parcel of a good discussion. I welcome the discourse as I too learn a great deal from the discussions here at Pricescope and treasure the associations that I have made over the years. And yes, I especially agree with you that we professionals have a DUTY to stand up and state our opinions, be they popular or not, and also that we should be prepared to discuss them without rancor.

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/24/2007 8:46:56 PM
Author: Wink

Hmmm, not at all the same my friend.

First, I AM NOT SNIPING, I am dissagreeing.

Sowwy, but yes it is sniping and making unfounded implications.
You just ragged on 3 consumers in a row.
bad show dude.

 

[gontama]

Date: 9/24/2007 9:00:55 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/24/2007 8:51:14 PM
Author: gontama

Date: 9/24/2007 8:34:46 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/24/2007 12:41:36 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/24/2007 12:18:35 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/23/2007 9:20:16 AM
Author: Ellen
All I ever hear are accolades....from the people putting out the big bucks...I think that pretty much says it all.

This kind of amuses me, sorry if I seem rude. It reminds me of a certain diet that every one was raving about for many years, especially the ones who spend the big bucks to go to special spa''s to use it.

When people started having health problems it took a few years still for it to fall out of favor. The only ones speaking up against it were professional nutritionists...

While I agree that the videos might have merrit, they also have questions. If I had the time and the inclination I could go get a camera and set up my lights to show a different result. The fact that I could makes me nervous when such videos are stated to be the end all and be all of diamond shopping. While they might be great, they also leave a question in my mind.

Wink

I fully expected someone to respond as you did Wink. Yes, in a way it does appear rude, because it is insinuating that all his customers are idiots who wouldn''t know a good diamond from a bad one.

What else appears rude, among other things, to me, are insinuations that Jon is misinforming his customers to make a sale. I think it''s pretty well known on here that he sells quality diamonds. I think it''s also pretty well known on here he is an honest, upstanding vendor. There is more than one thread that will show that. I think he is genuinely trying to help the buyer. He stated he has compared the lighting he uses with real life, and found them to give comperable results. I believe him, because I believe he is an honest person, with good intentions.

If the vids were coming from someone questionable, who sells questionable goods, I would be questioning them too.


And I don''t recall any of us saying these vids are the ''be all, end all'' of shopping online. We just said they help.

Ist, I am not insinuating anything. You stated that the people putting out the big bucks had spoken and thus it is so. I dissagree.

I say that the videos might be useful and they can be abused and thus should be viewed with the end in mind that the stones can be selected for further viewing with the eye.

Jon and I have been competitors and friends for many years, and I totally agree that he sells very nice diamonds. There are threads and threads where Jon and I have been in agreement. I also dissagree with him about some issues and there are threads and threads full of our dissagreements. In NONE of them will you find me insinuating anything. If I dissagree with him I will just flat out state it.

I certainly did not insinuate that his clients were idiots. I reserve the right to dissagree with him, or with anyone else when I believe that there is a question to the repeatability or the efficacy of the process, just as I did and still do with the Brilliancescope. I have questions in my mind about the videos as I know what can be done with lighting, whether intentional or not. This has nothing to do with Jon or his integrity, and everything to do with the technology being used at this time.

Wink

P.S. I am an equal opportunity speculator, I would question these videos no matter who was doing them, even if it were me.

There are things that cannot be done with video. There are also things that cannot be done without video. I would have felt exactly the same if someone commmented on your video the way it got responded to. I think you or anyone have right (or may be duty as professionals? Sorry if I am wrong) to ponit out what can be overlooked. But some may not even notice the benefit of the video depending on how it gets criticized. Wish you understand that I am not complaninig about you.

I do. I do not take these dissagreements personally, as I believe them to be part and parcel of a good discussion. I welcome the discourse as I too learn a great deal from the discussions here at Pricescope and treasure the associations that I have made over the years. And yes, I especially agree with you that we professionals have a DUTY to stand up and state our opinions, be they popular or not, and also that we should be prepared to discuss them without rancor.

Wink

I truly appreciate your professional response here, Wink. I should be looking forward to the next genration video presentation that you might plan to offer for the clients. That would be really cool.

I know it may not be fair to ask you here but since you and I are here anyway let me ask you, with respect for you as a professional dealing with some of the finest on this planet (I mean what I say here).

There are difference in diamond appearance depending on how it is cut. Many parameters and the combination of all come into play to appeal to our eyes. Well cut diamonds are beautiful. Eightstar for example seems to be cut to deliver the perfect firescope image, irrespective of lab''s physical symmetry grading, that can be readily observed by BS (IMO) - perfect/wonderful dynamic/runtime? symmetry. Other diamonds come with different type of charming points. It is hard for consumers to decide which one is most appealing to them.

Provided that an experienced cutter can work on any reasonable proportion and a diamond expert is fluent in describing the personality of each, would not it be possible for a vendor to provide a varitey of styles at the same time, with the explanation of the pros and cons - how they look in this light condition and that light condition, or this type of cutting is beautiful in this environment but that type of cutting is superor in different environments.

A car maker sells many different types of cars, leaving the choice to consumers. Can we expect this in diamond business?

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/24/2007 9:18:19 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/24/2007 8:46:56 PM
Author: Wink

Hmmm, not at all the same my friend.

First, I AM NOT SNIPING, I am dissagreeing.

Sowwy, but yes it is sniping and making unfounded implications.
You just ragged on 3 consumers in a row.
bad show dude.

?? I am not understanding where you are coming from. I do not thing that responding with explaination of what I am trying to say is sniping, but you are free to think what you want. I will pass on any further attempt to convince you otherwise.

Wink

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Enough Kids

We all know each others opinions.

It is like debating the benefits of the brilliancscope etc Or my baby / religion is betterer than yours.

The point has been made. Let the users enjoy or beware as they choose.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/24/2007 12:18:35 PM
Author: Wink

This kind of amuses me, sorry if I seem rude. It reminds me of a certain diet that every one was raving about for many years, especially the ones who spend the big bucks to go to special spa''s to use it.

snipe snipe its like a fraud diet


When people started having health problems it took a few years still for it to fall out of favor. The only ones speaking up against it were professional nutritionists...

snipe snipe not only is it like a fraud diet it will kill ya but listen too me im a professional

While I agree that the videos might have merrit, they also have questions.

As does any technology from ASET to IS too photos but I just gota snipe.

If I had the time and the inclination I could go get a camera and set up my lights to show a different result.

I the great Wink if I wanted but I dont could get a camera and do it better cuz im da professional!

The fact that I could makes me nervous when such videos are stated to be the end all and be all of diamond shopping. While they might be great, they also leave a question in my mind.

Wink

Get the point now?

Wait it gets better:
Yikes got caught!!
cya and say something nice:
"Jon and I have been competitors and friends for many years, and I totally agree that he sells very nice diamonds. "

point set match

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/24/2007 9:20:44 PM
Author: gontama

Date: 9/24/2007 9:00:55 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/24/2007 8:51:14 PM
Author: gontama

Date: 9/24/2007 8:34:46 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/24/2007 12:41:36 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/24/2007 12:18:35 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/23/2007 9:20:16 AM
Author: Ellen
All I ever hear are accolades....from the people putting out the big bucks...I think that pretty much says it all.

This kind of amuses me, sorry if I seem rude. It reminds me of a certain diet that every one was raving about for many years, especially the ones who spend the big bucks to go to special spa''s to use it.

When people started having health problems it took a few years still for it to fall out of favor. The only ones speaking up against it were professional nutritionists...

While I agree that the videos might have merrit, they also have questions. If I had the time and the inclination I could go get a camera and set up my lights to show a different result. The fact that I could makes me nervous when such videos are stated to be the end all and be all of diamond shopping. While they might be great, they also leave a question in my mind.

Wink

I fully expected someone to respond as you did Wink. Yes, in a way it does appear rude, because it is insinuating that all his customers are idiots who wouldn''t know a good diamond from a bad one.

What else appears rude, among other things, to me, are insinuations that Jon is misinforming his customers to make a sale. I think it''s pretty well known on here that he sells quality diamonds. I think it''s also pretty well known on here he is an honest, upstanding vendor. There is more than one thread that will show that. I think he is genuinely trying to help the buyer. He stated he has compared the lighting he uses with real life, and found them to give comperable results. I believe him, because I believe he is an honest person, with good intentions.

If the vids were coming from someone questionable, who sells questionable goods, I would be questioning them too.


And I don''t recall any of us saying these vids are the ''be all, end all'' of shopping online. We just said they help.

Ist, I am not insinuating anything. You stated that the people putting out the big bucks had spoken and thus it is so. I dissagree.

I say that the videos might be useful and they can be abused and thus should be viewed with the end in mind that the stones can be selected for further viewing with the eye.

Jon and I have been competitors and friends for many years, and I totally agree that he sells very nice diamonds. There are threads and threads where Jon and I have been in agreement. I also dissagree with him about some issues and there are threads and threads full of our dissagreements. In NONE of them will you find me insinuating anything. If I dissagree with him I will just flat out state it.

I certainly did not insinuate that his clients were idiots. I reserve the right to dissagree with him, or with anyone else when I believe that there is a question to the repeatability or the efficacy of the process, just as I did and still do with the Brilliancescope. I have questions in my mind about the videos as I know what can be done with lighting, whether intentional or not. This has nothing to do with Jon or his integrity, and everything to do with the technology being used at this time.

Wink

P.S. I am an equal opportunity speculator, I would question these videos no matter who was doing them, even if it were me.

There are things that cannot be done with video. There are also things that cannot be done without video. I would have felt exactly the same if someone commmented on your video the way it got responded to. I think you or anyone have right (or may be duty as professionals? Sorry if I am wrong) to ponit out what can be overlooked. But some may not even notice the benefit of the video depending on how it gets criticized. Wish you understand that I am not complaninig about you.

I do. I do not take these dissagreements personally, as I believe them to be part and parcel of a good discussion. I welcome the discourse as I too learn a great deal from the discussions here at Pricescope and treasure the associations that I have made over the years. And yes, I especially agree with you that we professionals have a DUTY to stand up and state our opinions, be they popular or not, and also that we should be prepared to discuss them without rancor.

Wink

I truly appreciate your professional response here, Wink. I should be looking forward to the next genration video presentation that you might plan to offer for the clients. That would be really cool.

I know it may not be fair to ask you here but since you and I are here anyway let me ask you, with respect for you as a professional dealing with some of the finest on this planet (I mean what I say here).

There are difference in diamond appearance depending on how it is cut. Many parameters and the combination of all come into play to appeal to our eyes. Well cut diamonds are beautiful. Eightstar for example seems to be cut to deliver the perfect firescope image, irrespective of lab''s physical symmetry grading, that can be readily observed by BS (IMO) - perfect/wonderful dynamic/runtime? symmetry. Other diamonds come with different type of charming points. It is hard for consumers to decide which one is most appealing to them.

Provided that an experienced cutter can work on any reasonable proportion and a diamond expert is fluent in describing the personality of each, would not it be possible for a vendor to provide a varitey of styles at the same time, with the explanation of the pros and cons - how they look in this light condition and that light condition, or this type of cutting is beautiful in this environment but that type of cutting is superor in different environments.

A car maker sells many different types of cars, leaving the choice to consumers. Can we expect this in diamond business?

Remarkably! It is in fact virtually impossible to do without seeing the diamonds in person, although photography and yes, videos, can help so long as you realize they are only a step in the process.

I believe that happens to a great deal already. For example, if you discuss with John Quixote the difference between the new line and the classic, he will tell you about how they react in different lighting situations. Jonathon and I can explain to you the nuances of the EightStar versus a H&A cut diamond of various proportion sets and how they react in different lighting situations. Many of us can and do this now.

What I discovered during my video presentation of the wonderful Infinity diamonds and the EightStars that I had here is that it was exceedingly difficult to tell them apart in the video. Heck, it can be hard to tell them apart in normal lighting while in the room with them, especially if no one tells you which is which, which is what I like to do with my clients, so that they are not tempted to choose based on what they think is the best diamond.

This past few weeks I have had a LOT of fun showing clients an E-VVS1 1.11ct side by side with an I-SI1 1.11 ct EightStar. To date 100% iof my clients have chosen the I-SI1 as the most attractive stone. Not because it was an EightStar, but because the E-VVS1 has an AGS 4 or 5 cut grade were I to send it in for one. It is pretty until you put it next to a stone that is well cut, then it absolutely pales by comparrison. The E-VVS1 looks smaller than the I-SI1 too.

Still, the sad thing is, that many of the consumers here, or prosumers as they should properly be called, know a LOT more about diamond cutting than all but a handfull of jewelers in this country. I chuckle at my mental image of the average sales clerk in any store in the country trying to sell Storm a diamond. Storm would have to educate them for hours before they could even speak his language, let alone show him a diamond that had what he wanted. Then when he left, they would turn and ask the manager, "Who was that Masked Man?"

Wink

(P.S. That is what the grateful cowfolk always asked after the Lone Ranger left them saved from what ever he was saving them from that week when I was a kid. I realize that many of you youngsters will know not of what I speak, so I hope you know it is a compliment to Storm.)

 

[strmrdr]

ok now i have lone ranger theme song and the sniper song going thru my head!
http://www.timvp.com/lonerang.html

hiyooooooooo silver!
On that note storm out of this thread.

 

[gontama]

Date: 9/24/2007 9:43:56 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/24/2007 9:20:44 PM
Author: gontama

Date: 9/24/2007 9:00:55 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/24/2007 8:51:14 PM
Author: gontama

Date: 9/24/2007 8:34:46 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/24/2007 12:41:36 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/24/2007 12:18:35 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/23/2007 9:20:16 AM
Author: Ellen
All I ever hear are accolades....from the people putting out the big bucks...I think that pretty much says it all.

This kind of amuses me, sorry if I seem rude. It reminds me of a certain diet that every one was raving about for many years, especially the ones who spend the big bucks to go to special spa''s to use it.

When people started having health problems it took a few years still for it to fall out of favor. The only ones speaking up against it were professional nutritionists...

While I agree that the videos might have merrit, they also have questions. If I had the time and the inclination I could go get a camera and set up my lights to show a different result. The fact that I could makes me nervous when such videos are stated to be the end all and be all of diamond shopping. While they might be great, they also leave a question in my mind.

Wink

I fully expected someone to respond as you did Wink. Yes, in a way it does appear rude, because it is insinuating that all his customers are idiots who wouldn''t know a good diamond from a bad one.

What else appears rude, among other things, to me, are insinuations that Jon is misinforming his customers to make a sale. I think it''s pretty well known on here that he sells quality diamonds. I think it''s also pretty well known on here he is an honest, upstanding vendor. There is more than one thread that will show that. I think he is genuinely trying to help the buyer. He stated he has compared the lighting he uses with real life, and found them to give comperable results. I believe him, because I believe he is an honest person, with good intentions.

If the vids were coming from someone questionable, who sells questionable goods, I would be questioning them too.


And I don''t recall any of us saying these vids are the ''be all, end all'' of shopping online. We just said they help.

Ist, I am not insinuating anything. You stated that the people putting out the big bucks had spoken and thus it is so. I dissagree.

I say that the videos might be useful and they can be abused and thus should be viewed with the end in mind that the stones can be selected for further viewing with the eye.

Jon and I have been competitors and friends for many years, and I totally agree that he sells very nice diamonds. There are threads and threads where Jon and I have been in agreement. I also dissagree with him about some issues and there are threads and threads full of our dissagreements. In NONE of them will you find me insinuating anything. If I dissagree with him I will just flat out state it.

I certainly did not insinuate that his clients were idiots. I reserve the right to dissagree with him, or with anyone else when I believe that there is a question to the repeatability or the efficacy of the process, just as I did and still do with the Brilliancescope. I have questions in my mind about the videos as I know what can be done with lighting, whether intentional or not. This has nothing to do with Jon or his integrity, and everything to do with the technology being used at this time.

Wink

P.S. I am an equal opportunity speculator, I would question these videos no matter who was doing them, even if it were me.

There are things that cannot be done with video. There are also things that cannot be done without video. I would have felt exactly the same if someone commmented on your video the way it got responded to. I think you or anyone have right (or may be duty as professionals? Sorry if I am wrong) to ponit out what can be overlooked. But some may not even notice the benefit of the video depending on how it gets criticized. Wish you understand that I am not complaninig about you.

I do. I do not take these dissagreements personally, as I believe them to be part and parcel of a good discussion. I welcome the discourse as I too learn a great deal from the discussions here at Pricescope and treasure the associations that I have made over the years. And yes, I especially agree with you that we professionals have a DUTY to stand up and state our opinions, be they popular or not, and also that we should be prepared to discuss them without rancor.

Wink

I truly appreciate your professional response here, Wink. I should be looking forward to the next genration video presentation that you might plan to offer for the clients. That would be really cool.

I know it may not be fair to ask you here but since you and I are here anyway let me ask you, with respect for you as a professional dealing with some of the finest on this planet (I mean what I say here).

There are difference in diamond appearance depending on how it is cut. Many parameters and the combination of all come into play to appeal to our eyes. Well cut diamonds are beautiful. Eightstar for example seems to be cut to deliver the perfect firescope image, irrespective of lab''s physical symmetry grading, that can be readily observed by BS (IMO) - perfect/wonderful dynamic/runtime? symmetry. Other diamonds come with different type of charming points. It is hard for consumers to decide which one is most appealing to them.

Provided that an experienced cutter can work on any reasonable proportion and a diamond expert is fluent in describing the personality of each, would not it be possible for a vendor to provide a varitey of styles at the same time, with the explanation of the pros and cons - how they look in this light condition and that light condition, or this type of cutting is beautiful in this environment but that type of cutting is superor in different environments.

A car maker sells many different types of cars, leaving the choice to consumers. Can we expect this in diamond business?

Remarkably! It is in fact virtually impossible to do without seeing the diamonds in person, although photography and yes, videos, can help so long as you realize they are only a step in the process.

I believe that happens to a great deal already. For example, if you discuss with John Quixote the difference between the new line and the classic, he will tell you about how they react in different lighting situations. Jonathon and I can explain to you the nuances of the EightStar versus a H&A cut diamond of various proportion sets and how they react in different lighting situations. Many of us can and do this now.

What I discovered during my video presentation of the wonderful Infinity diamonds and the EightStars that I had here is that it was exceedingly difficult to tell them apart in the video. Heck, it can be hard to tell them apart in normal lighting while in the room with them, especially if no one tells you which is which, which is what I like to do with my clients, so that they are not tempted to choose based on what they think is the best diamond.

This past few weeks I have had a LOT of fun showing clients an E-VVS1 1.11ct side by side with an I-SI1 1.11 ct EightStar. To date 100% iof my clients have chosen the I-SI1 as the most attractive stone. Not because it was an EightStar, but because the E-VVS1 has an AGS 4 or 5 cut grade were I to send it in for one. It is pretty until you put it next to a stone that is well cut, then it absolutely pales by comparrison. The E-VVS1 looks smaller than the I-SI1 too.

Still, the sad thing is, that many of the consumers here, or prosumers as they should properly be called, know a LOT more about diamond cutting than all but a handfull of jewelers in this country. I chuckle at my mental image of the average sales clerk in any store in the country trying to sell Storm a diamond. Storm would have to educate them for hours before they could even speak his language, let alone show him a diamond that had what he wanted. Then when he left, they would turn and ask the manager, ''Who was that Masked Man?''

Wink

(P.S. That is what the grateful cowfolk always asked after the Lone Ranger left them saved from what ever he was saving them from that week when I was a kid. I realize that many of you youngsters will know not of what I speak, so I hope you know it is a compliment to Storm.)

Thanks Wink. I do hope more comparison coming in some agreed-upon manner. Comparing a diamond of type "A" offered by one vendor against a diamnd of type "B" offered by another vendor in different way (videos, photos, etc.) is not easy.

WF has new and classic lines but I do not think they are drastically different. I remember the vendor said the difference is subtle, though I do think each has own merit once one get used to how to look at each type. If WF has a diamond that is cut with longer star/lgf while maintaining its strict criteria and provide the comparison among all of them with detailed explanation of each type, for example, consumers would get more edicated in terms of where to pay attention to. Video comparison would then make more sense. This is not a request for WF to do this, just in case...

I have no doubt that 100% would choose an Eightstar over an AGS4, no matter the color. What is interesting would be the comparison between an Eightstar and an Infinity in different viewing distance, lighting condition, etc. While they are not as good as actually looking at the two diamonds in person, with the explanation provided by an expert like you, consumers would have much better idea about their personality. For example, a consumer may try to pay close attention to the beauty of the great precision of each virtual facet of an Infinity diamond that is actually coming to our eyes. Even better if you offer yet another type of super ideal for comparison.

There may be more, but I recognize 4 (or 5?)) cuttnig styles GOG has for RB. Among them I have actually looked at 3 different types (total 5 diamonds) of AGS0 (as well as others locally). They do differ significantly to me and I know my preference. Video alone may not be sufficient, but a lot of information can be communicated with professional explanation accompanied with it.

Still, we may not understand the difference between WF ACA, Eightstar, Infinity and those beautiful diamonds GOG has. So after all may be what I want is some standardized way to present comparison, whether or not it is practical or even possible. I am sorry I have not joined your presentation. You might be doing more than what GOG has done in the video. If so, wonderful, as I respect "lead by example", even if it is not perfect, and I think GOG only has good intention in this direction too.

I think that the beauty of the diamonds can be any less appreciated by consumers than expertes once they get used to, just like there are great drivers who can drive a car much better than the enginners at the car maker that sells the car. So I would want as many presentatin as possible in a manner that is agreed upon, which I know is very difficult. In the meantime any kind of presetnatioan deserves some respect.

Thanks again.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/24/2007 11:58:23 PM
Author: gontama

I think that the beauty of the diamonds can be any less appreciated by consumers than experts once they get used to, just like there are great drivers who can drive a car much better than the engineers at the car maker that sells the car. So I would want as many presentation as possible in a manner that is agreed upon, which I know is very difficult. In the meantime any kind of presentation deserves some respect.


Thanks again.

Here in lays the hard part, "manner that is agreed upon". You are right, it is very difficult.

For all the work that AGS and GIA have made to standardize diamond cut grading, we vendors can not even agree as to who did it best. I say AGS, others say GIA. Who is right? Is anyone? Some think they are both full of prunes and that it is solely up to the eye of the beholder.

While I think both GIA and AGS did great work I have little things about each that I would change were I in charge. I am not so that''s out, unless I come back a whole lot smarter and more political in my next life...

In the meantime, read Pricescope. There is a wealth of information here, and some really great debates between us vendors. I doubt that you will ever get your wish for an agreed upon manner of comparison, there are just too many little things to disagree over. But you will get a great deal of knowledge and many many tools to help you make a decision.

Wink

 

[gontama]

Date: 9/25/2007 1:38:26 AM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/24/2007 11:58:23 PM
Author: gontama

I think that the beauty of the diamonds can be any less appreciated by consumers than experts once they get used to, just like there are great drivers who can drive a car much better than the engineers at the car maker that sells the car. So I would want as many presentation as possible in a manner that is agreed upon, which I know is very difficult. In the meantime any kind of presentation deserves some respect.


Thanks again.

Here in lays the hard part, 'manner that is agreed upon'. You are right, it is very difficult.

For all the work that AGS and GIA have made to standardize diamond cut grading, we vendors can not even agree as to who did it best. I say AGS, others say GIA. Who is right? Is anyone? Some think they are both full of prunes and that it is solely up to the eye of the beholder.

While I think both GIA and AGS did great work I have little things about each that I would change were I in charge. I am not so that's out, unless I come back a whole lot smarter and more political in my next life...

In the meantime, read Pricescope. There is a wealth of information here, and some really great debates between us vendors. I doubt that you will ever get your wish for an agreed upon manner of comparison, there are just too many little things to disagree over. But you will get a great deal of knowledge and many many tools to help you make a decision.

Wink

Yes, it seems very difficult. I went through many discussions here on PS.

Frankly I think netiher AGS or GIA is more important than professional evaluations by reputable PS vendors as far as PS consumers are concerned. My experience more than once has proven that both AGS and GIA are not doing great in fluo evaluation, though that is not a problem to me. The measurement provided by AGS/GIA does not seem to be any more precise than that provided by reputable vendors either. Furthermore, AGS0s and GIA EXs can have very different appearance. But for the vast majority of cusotmer base, yes I understand different guidelines can be confusing as they may rely solely upon lab grading. Professional effort to tighten the grading standard woud be very much appreciated.

I should probably have said that consumers may appreciate more common methods that a vendor would not hesitate to deploy to compare great diamonds beyond AGS/GIA that only differ in personality.

IS and its varients are often provided. Photos are also there. HCA, a great finding of C/P inverse relationship Gary fomalized, can be applied to every diamond that has C/P info w/o rounding. It is only after certain thresholds are given that debates begin, which may or may not matter depending on the rest of the data. Educated consumers and professioanls can use it wisely.

There may be more things that can be commonly offered. Full 3D Sarin/Helium would be certanly a plus and I think GOG is great in doing so for all of their diamonds. It would be fantastic if HCA accepts every possible number obtained from 3D scan (not asknig Gary to make that happen though...) Vidoe is what I thought can be another direct measurement of diamond performance/apperance. Like BS, I think it has own merit. GOG has videos showing personality of different cuts.

Rregardless of whether it is agreed or not, if a vendor provides video presentation with certain set of environments (light, distance, angle), it will be consumers who make educated decisions. At least it does not hurt anybody.

I hope evolution of diamond industry will lead to the next generation presentation that emphasizes the difference in personality of diamonds. Till then, presentation of choice by experts like you are very much appreciated. Thank you for your response.