Assher dilemma (with Video)
- Thread starter BlingHunter
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strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Well as ya know,,,,,Storm knows everything!
well lets just say Jon has a sore arm from me twisting on it.
actually I just threatened to kidnap Chas and make Jon do all the lab work.
Ya think I wasn't hounding him day and night for the data?
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Yay! I picked number 3...I just thought it was outstanding!
Ellen
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 9/21/2007 5:56:48 PM
Author: strmrdr
Well as ya know,,,,,Storm knows everything!
well lets just say Jon has a sore arm from me twisting on it.
actually I just threatened to kidnap Chas and make Jon do all the lab work.
Ya think I wasn''t hounding him day and night for the data?
Woohoo, I picked the AGS0 AND guessed the right order!
Nice to know my hours and hours of staring at pics has paid off.
FireGoddess
Super_Ideal_Rock
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That is very interesting! I preferred them AGS2>AGS0>AGS1.
FireGoddess
Super_Ideal_Rock
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According to strm it was...
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Lots of fun folks, but it would be easy to make different lightings or even different camera to diamond to light angles, distances etc and give you completely different impressions.
The video''s show what the diamonds look like in an environment where the diamonds are very very close to the light. I doubt any of you ever see diamonds in anything close. It was designed as a lighting to replicate the flluoro diamond dealers desk lighting, with the LED''s thrown in to do the fire thing.
The video''s show what the diamonds look like in an environment where the diamonds are very very close to the light. I doubt any of you ever see diamonds in anything close. It was designed as a lighting to replicate the flluoro diamond dealers desk lighting, with the LED''s thrown in to do the fire thing.
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... which we have found is more than sufficient to demonstrate the optical differences and nuances between the optical properties of brightness, fire and scintillation in a comparison of 2 diamonds. There is no false representation taking place and if I saw the video showing something deceptively different than what I see (not only in DD lighting but others as well) I would cease to offer the service. You are incorrrect in saying that the lighting is meant to replicate fluoro diamond dealers lighting and I demonstrate this quite plainly in my video on the subject "The Assessment of Brightness" wherein I show a comparison of the same 2 diamonds in both DD (the lighting in this video) and diamond dealer desktop lighting (amongst other lighting environments). They are clearly not the same however the assessment between the appearances and quality is plainly seen in both lighting environments.
On a more positive note, from showing the same comparisons to our staff here in typical office lighting (about 10-15 employees at any given time) our staff agrees with the assessments that have been expressed in this thread.
Peace,
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Rhino I am not saying that what you are doing is deliberately deceptive. But I feel a word of reason or caution can be called for when people are watching these video''s and believing that there is strong science behind them. Most Pscopers know that GIA Excellent range extends into much deeper diamonds than you or any of them would want to own. Clearly GIA''s study favoured those diamonds and it is easy to see why - because they copied dealers lighting. I did not make that up, and I have debated it with you before.
Would quotes from GIA''s research paper present the truth on the issue Rhino?
http://lgdl.gia.edu/pdfs/cut_fall2004.pdf
Viewing Environments. To discover how individuals
in the trade normally evaluate diamonds on
a day-to-day basis, we asked them detailed questions
about their working environments, and we
observed them while they assessed diamonds in
these environments. This revealed their everyday
observation practices such as colors of clothing,
colors of the backgrounds on which they viewed
diamonds, light intensity, lighting and viewing
geometry, light-source specification, and how
they held and moved diamonds when viewing
them.
Our observers examined diamonds in a number
of different environments, some variable and some
controlled, including:
• Their own offices and workplaces (using desktop
fluorescent lamps)
• A conference room at the GIA offices in New
York (using similar desk lamps and/or the viewing
boxes described below)
.................................................................
................................................................
For observation of overall cut appearance, we
developed a GIA “common viewing environment”
(CVE [patent pending]), a neutral gray box (shallower
than the Macbeth Judge II or GTI environment)
with a combination of daylight-equivalent
fluorescent lamps and overhead white LEDs (lightemitting
diodes; figure 6). We established the optimum
intensity of the fluorescent lamps by observing
when a set of reference diamonds showed the
same relative amounts of brightness as they
showed in the dealer-equivalent lighting.
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Hi Garry,
Thanks for the response. I''m not contesting that. In fact GIA suggests using various lighting environments wherein the same assessement can be made right in their diamond grading lab manual. What I''m saying is that desktop fluoro lighting does not replicate the same view as seen in the DD. What is important to me is that the same assessment can be made between the same 2 stones regardless of whether you use standard office lighting, desktop fluoro, dd lighting, outside on a cloudy day (the best natural diffuse daylight environment possible IMO), outside in shade etc. I''ve compared each of these environments to DD lighting and since I own the equipment, know which other natural environment it mimics most. My concern is proper and accurate representation in a consistent and common viewing environment as close to natural as possible without having to go outside of my store each time I do this.
Peace,
Thanks for the response. I''m not contesting that. In fact GIA suggests using various lighting environments wherein the same assessement can be made right in their diamond grading lab manual. What I''m saying is that desktop fluoro lighting does not replicate the same view as seen in the DD. What is important to me is that the same assessment can be made between the same 2 stones regardless of whether you use standard office lighting, desktop fluoro, dd lighting, outside on a cloudy day (the best natural diffuse daylight environment possible IMO), outside in shade etc. I''ve compared each of these environments to DD lighting and since I own the equipment, know which other natural environment it mimics most. My concern is proper and accurate representation in a consistent and common viewing environment as close to natural as possible without having to go outside of my store each time I do this.
Peace,
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Storm not everyone who watches these video''s knows my opinion.
And while the VoxPop may be they are interesting, I think it iis in the interests of Pscope that people are aware that not everyone thinks these video''s provide quality information
By all means promote them as entertainment and as sales tools, but just use them as GradinLite guides
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Yes, interesting and informative..., but very limited!!!
And a very small piece of the pie when it comes to lighting options!!!
You "the people" should know there are quite more lighting options for Diamonds...
On another note: Why have I not seen any Asscher Cut manufacturers submit their Asschers for AGS reports? All I see are GIA reports on Asschers....
Ellen
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Gary, if I were in the market for an Asscher, I couldn''t swing bringing 2 or 3 home to compare. Seeing a video is better than nothing. And I personally think they give a good idea of a stones personality.
Frankly, the only people I ever hear complain about Jon and his videos are the experts. Of all the customers (thousands) Jon has had, not one has come on here badmouthing him about misrepresentation on a stone. All I ever hear are accolades....from the people putting out the big bucks...I think that pretty much says it all.
Frankly, the only people I ever hear complain about Jon and his videos are the experts. Of all the customers (thousands) Jon has had, not one has come on here badmouthing him about misrepresentation on a stone. All I ever hear are accolades....from the people putting out the big bucks...I think that pretty much says it all.
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This kind of amuses me, sorry if I seem rude. It reminds me of a certain diet that every one was raving about for many years, especially the ones who spend the big bucks to go to special spa''s to use it.
When people started having health problems it took a few years still for it to fall out of favor. The only ones speaking up against it were professional nutritionists...
While I agree that the videos might have merrit, they also have questions. If I had the time and the inclination I could go get a camera and set up my lights to show a different result. The fact that I could makes me nervous when such videos are stated to be the end all and be all of diamond shopping. While they might be great, they also leave a question in my mind.
Wink
Ellen
Super_Ideal_Rock
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I fully expected someone to respond as you did Wink. Yes, in a way it does appear rude, because it is insinuating that all his customers are idiots who wouldn''t know a good diamond from a bad one.
What else appears rude, among other things, to me, are insinuations that Jon is misinforming his customers to make a sale. I think it''s pretty well known on here that he sells quality diamonds. I think it''s also pretty well known on here he is an honest, upstanding vendor. There is more than one thread that will show that. I think he is genuinely trying to help the buyer. He stated he has compared the lighting he uses with real life, and found them to give comperable results. I believe him, because I believe he is an honest person, with good intentions.
If the vids were coming from someone questionable, who sells questionable goods, I would be questioning them too.
And I don''t recall any of us saying these vids are the "be all, end all" of shopping online. We just said they help.
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Firstly, I dont plan to get involved politically!Date: 9/24/2007 12:41:36 PM
Author: Ellen
I fully expected someone to respond as you did Wink. Yes, in a way it does appear rude, because it is insinuating that all his customers are idiots who wouldn''t know a good diamond from a bad one.
We can try to assume customers which educated themselves on PS or any other education sites "might?" be able to tell a difference between an excellent cut and a good/decent cut Diamond. One thing for sure is..., most Diamond jewelry consumers dont!
Ellen, please do remember you are a member of one of the most detailed Diamond information websites. Most potential consumers are not.
What else appears rude, among other things, to me, are insinuations that Jon is misinforming his customers to make a sale. I think it''s pretty well known on here that he sells quality diamonds. I think it''s also pretty well known on here he is an honest, upstanding vendor. There is more than one thread that will show that. I think he is genuinely trying to help the buyer. He stated he has compared the lighting he uses with real life, and found them to give comperable results. I believe him, because I believe he is an honest person, with good intentions.
Do you on an every day basis go through 2 types of lighting environments? He might be right in regards to comparable results..., but extremely limited results.
If the vids were coming from someone questionable, who sells questionable goods, I would be questioning them too.
And I don''t recall any of us saying these vids are the ''be all, end all'' of shopping online. We just said they help.
Ellen, I am not saying anything is bad with these video''s..., but we must remember its a business and this is a small equation of a business''s marketing campaign.
All vendors here on PS enjoy luxury''s B&M shops dont...,(to name a few out of numerous) first, the daily based and close communication between vendor-potential client..., second, the marketing tool called photography..., its a phenomenal tool..., the potential client gets to see the product exactly as the vendor wants. take for example the fact that you can see a 0.75 carat round splashed covering your 15 or so inch screen..., and this is after deleting the images which did not suit the vendor. And this is only one of many!!!!
Its also true that a vendor can use this kind of tool ''mostly'' on decent cut Diamonds as it would be pretty easy to unmask poorly cut Diamonds on such a large scale not to mention pick up inclusions easily.
One thing I must point out to..., is the fact that while reading through this thread..., I have not noticed any unethical behaviour between any interested parties what-so ever!
The contrary is correct..., I have noticed the weak spot these vendors have while enjoying the luxuries mentioned above..., the simple fact that any person has the freedom and power to shake one''s reputation (with the flick of a finger)..., please remember the most important asset any jeweler has is his reputation...
A reputation takes years to build..., and can be destroyed in seconds!!!
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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That''s why unfairly attacking another vendors reputation is going to turn around and bite him in the fanny.
It not only reflects badly on PS is reflects triple badly on the vendor doing it.
Vendors that pull that kind of crap one too many times get put on my dnr list and never get a recommendation.
Skippy123
Super_Ideal_Rock
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I like the video demo; I agree it is helpful and I learned a lot from some of these videos. Most people are visual and learn that way, plus a lot of us don't have access to playing w/diamonds and comparing them like most vendors. I understand where both sides are coming from and it is an Interesting debate. Thanks PS for keeping us the consumer informed
ETA: I would like to say congrats to Blinghunter; your assscher looks beautiful!!!!
ETA: I would like to say congrats to Blinghunter; your assscher looks beautiful!!!!
gontama
Shiny_Rock
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Hi DiaGem - Please correct me if I misunderstand anything.Date: 9/24/2007 4:06:52 PM
Author: DiaGem
Firstly, I dont plan to get involved politically!Date: 9/24/2007 12:41:36 PM
Author: Ellen
I fully expected someone to respond as you did Wink. Yes, in a way it does appear rude, because it is insinuating that all his customers are idiots who wouldn't know a good diamond from a bad one.
We can try to assume customers which educated themselves on PS or any other education sites 'might?' be able to tell a difference between an excellent cut and a good/decent cut Diamond. One thing for sure is..., most Diamond jewelry consumers dont!
Ellen, please do remember you are a member of one of the most detailed Diamond information websites. Most potential consumers are not.
What else appears rude, among other things, to me, are insinuations that Jon is misinforming his customers to make a sale. I think it's pretty well known on here that he sells quality diamonds. I think it's also pretty well known on here he is an honest, upstanding vendor. There is more than one thread that will show that. I think he is genuinely trying to help the buyer. He stated he has compared the lighting he uses with real life, and found them to give comperable results. I believe him, because I believe he is an honest person, with good intentions.
Do you on an every day basis go through 2 types of lighting environments? He might be right in regards to comparable results..., but extremely limited results.
If the vids were coming from someone questionable, who sells questionable goods, I would be questioning them too.
And I don't recall any of us saying these vids are the 'be all, end all' of shopping online. We just said they help.
Ellen, I am not saying anything is bad with these video's..., but we must remember its a business and this is a small equation of a business's marketing campaign.
All vendors here on PS enjoy luxury's B&M shops dont...,(to name a few out of numerous) first, the daily based and close communication between vendor-potential client..., second, the marketing tool called photography..., its a phenomenal tool..., the potential client gets to see the product exactly as the vendor wants. take for example the fact that you can see a 0.75 carat round splashed covering your 15 or so inch screen..., and this is after deleting the images which did not suit the vendor. And this is only one of many!!!!
Its also true that a vendor can use this kind of tool 'mostly' on decent cut Diamonds as it would be pretty easy to unmask poorly cut Diamonds on such a large scale not to mention pick up inclusions easily.
One thing I must point out to..., is the fact that while reading through this thread..., I have not noticed any unethical behaviour between any interested parties what-so ever!
The contrary is correct..., I have noticed the weak spot these vendors have while enjoying the luxuries mentioned above..., the simple fact that any person has the freedom and power to shake one's reputation (with the flick of a finger)..., please remember the most important asset any jeweler has is his reputation...
A reputation takes years to build..., and can be destroyed in seconds!!!
I think the video was taken to help the client, who thanks for the service provided, more informed of the diamonds being considered for purchase. If the client thinks, or will find future, that it was indeed a misleading presentation, we will know. It is hard for me to believe that a reputable vendor takes that risk.
If it were used to compare a diamond the vendor carries against other diamonds offered by another vendor, it can be unfair. However it is provided to help the client compare the diamonds the same vendor offer. And the vendor said that the vide represents (not the same) the difference in appearance of these diamonds.
I consider this a professional attempt to deliver services to the client in the best possible way the vendor can. From my experience, I can say that the vendor will not mislead clients. I think it does not matter to the vendor which stone gets sold. It probably doesn not even matter if none of them is sold after all. The vendor was honest and open enough even to discourage a diamond I had in mind because he does not think it meets my requirements.
I agree with Ellen 100%. It it were made by somebody else, many questions are reasoanble. When provided by a very trusted vendor as part of the information on the diamonds the clients are considering however, I do not see anything wrong here.
I remember the former admin of the forum said this forum is for consumers and I assume the same principle applies now - Instead of limitation of the service method being offered by a vendor, I would rather like to hear a professional suggestion to improve the efficiency etc., if possible.
Sincerely.
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Please calm down folks.
Re read my original post
Equally a video camera has one eye - what we see with 2 is quite different.
It does not mean that - like so many other selection and rejection tools that video does not have benefits.
For example I would suggest Rhino include one where all the lights are turned off and just the ambient room light be used also.
Re read my original post
There is an entertainment value, and as long as people are aware that different diamonds look different in different lighting, then that is all i sort to point out.
Equally a video camera has one eye - what we see with 2 is quite different.
It does not mean that - like so many other selection and rejection tools that video does not have benefits.
For example I would suggest Rhino include one where all the lights are turned off and just the ambient room light be used also.
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