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Haven

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Beau--My husband is totally delusional with that theory of his, but I''m not going to be the one to set him straight.
10.gif
 

hlmr

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Date: 6/10/2009 11:12:49 PM
Author: Haven

Date: 6/10/2009 10:56:13 PM
Author: hlmr
I guess some people need that mirror, mirror routine to get through life. It''s a shame that there is only the reflection and no substance behind it.
5.gif

It looks like you''re responding to my post. All I can say is that being quick to judge others is the best way to show your own true colors.
I am not responding to your post at all! I think it is wonderful that your husband sees you as beautiful, as I am sure you are. I love the way you recount what your husband said about your beauty.
 

Haven

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Date: 6/10/2009 11:21:04 PM
Author: hlmr
Date: 6/10/2009 11:12:49 PM
Author: Haven

Date: 6/10/2009 10:56:13 PM
Author: hlmr
I guess some people need that mirror, mirror routine to get through life. It's a shame that there is only the reflection and no substance behind it.
5.gif

It looks like you're responding to my post. All I can say is that being quick to judge others is the best way to show your own true colors.

I am not responding to your post at all! I think it is wonderful that your husband sees you as beautiful, as I am sure you are. I love the way you recount what your husband said about your beauty.

Sorry, I went back and edited the post before I saw this response because I realized I was being overly sensitive. I felt a bit vulnerable articulating that last post, apparently.

Thank you for your kind words, and for your kindness in response to my inanity above.
 

hlmr

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Joined
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Messages
2,872
Date: 6/10/2009 11:24:24 PM
Author: Haven

Date: 6/10/2009 11:21:04 PM
Author: hlmr

Date: 6/10/2009 11:12:49 PM
Author: Haven


Date: 6/10/2009 10:56:13 PM
Author: hlmr
I guess some people need that mirror, mirror routine to get through life. It''s a shame that there is only the reflection and no substance behind it.
5.gif

It looks like you''re responding to my post. All I can say is that being quick to judge others is the best way to show your own true colors.

I am not responding to your post at all! I think it is wonderful that your husband sees you as beautiful, as I am sure you are. I love the way you recount what your husband said about your beauty.

Sorry, I went back and edited the post before I saw this response because I realized I was being overly sensitive. I felt a bit vulnerable articulating that last post, apparently.

Thank you for your kind words, and for your kindness in response to my inanity above.
No worries! I think most of us feel a bit strange about sharing a wonderful comment like that, because we are generally humble beings.
1.gif
 

Haven

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Messages
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hlmr--I''m humbled by your understanding. Again, thank you.
 

Black Jade

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Yes.
Although I wouldn''t answer this honestly if you were to ask me in person. I learned quite young that that gets a bad reaction from people who then decide that you are obnoxious and vain. I am now trying to learn to say ''thank you'' when someone tells me that I''m pretty instead of going into the "Who, me? Oh no this is wrong with me and that is wrong" kind of routine that one picks up early in self-defense.

To be truthful, I''m glad to be still pretty nowadays because I''m old. Over fifty. When I was young, I was very ambivalent about it. I felt a lot of the time that people would look at me and decide that I had nothing else to offer, without bothering to try to get to know me. Especially men, because I have the good fortune/or bad luck, depending on your point of view to be pretty and to be very well-developed in the chest.

I actually think I fell in love with my husband because he said nothing whatever about the way I looked for the first six months he knew me, and talked to me while looking in my eyes, instead of down my blouse.

I have no idea what the difference between pretty and beautiful and cute and attractive and all of that is. I''ve heard all of those words applied to me--it seems to depend more on what the person''s preferred choice of vocabulary is than anything else. I''ve also gotten a lot of the thing where people get quiet when you walk into the room (more when I was younger than now, if I''m quite honest about it), the thing where they keep blushing and can''t talk to you without stuttering and can''t look you in the eye meet your eyes and those other non-verbal signs that the guys think you look nice--and that you''re going to have to spend the rest of the evening being very very nice to other women in the room, who are the people who really count after all. They''re the ones who will turn out to be your friends and your support system and all of that in the long run--not the guys.

I''m not going to lie and say that I wish I were ugly, but I do wish wish ''prettiness'' were seen more as the neutral thing that it really is. You can be smart and ugly--or smart and pretty. You can be a nice person and ugly--or a nice person and pretty. The qualities are completely independent of each other. the outside has nothing to do with the person that you are inside. Because people have tended to make assumptions about me because of my looks all my life (often in my favor, but it''s still annoying), I do try to be careful not to do this to anybody else. I will talk to anyone, whether they are pretty or not so pretty, whatever size they happen to be, whether they are old or not or well-dressed or not--especially if it seems that others are leaving them out for some reason or other, of if they seem to be uncomfortable or shy. I will only make up my mind about them after I have talked to them. I am very annoyed by this tv culture that has been creeping up on us over the last 30 year or so which makes attractiveness the only value and I am only person person but I will fight it as long as I can and teach my kids that they need to also fight it.
 

whitby_2773

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Joined
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Messages
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Date: 5/22/2009 4:45:06 PM
Author: Ellen
Date: 5/22/2009 10:11:01 AM

Author: janinegirly

Our society absolutely rewards people who are more attractive. It also rewards people who are more outgoing/big talkers (not so in other cultures). Just like beau pointed out (like the name
2.gif
) , this happens in day to day life as well as in the workplace. There is even data to show that taller men are more likely to be successful,etc. Alot of our culture is built around perception. If you are beautiful, the assumption is you must be successful and someone who should be sought after. Life is easier for those .. from childhood on. However, beauty fades and the crash is much tougher to take for those who were given an easier path. This makes me think of the stereotype that beautiful women are more likely to be crazy (I''m talking about sterotypes single bachehlor men give). The idea is that if you''re beautiful you get away with a lot as there is less pressure to adjust /reel in your feelings. You will still get attention and be considered desireable. The less attractive person is more likely to be funny, easy going, have some unique skill etc...because this is how they level the playing field.


Hope I''m not offending anyone, I just find some of these sociological behavioral stuff interesting, even if it can be overgeneralized.
Not here.


While I agree in general that attractive people may get some small breaks others might not, my life has been anything but easy, and I imagine other attractive people could say the same thing. ''Life'' does not care if you''re pretty.
2.gif

ditto this.

i also think it''s salient to mention that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and one man''s meat is another man''s poison. as beau said, i think MOST men would send their wives in first if they were trying to make an impression with looks, but the truth is that what my husband, your husband, or her husband may find attractive are probably three totally different things. physical attractiveness is a hugely subjective measure.

for instance, someone mentioned earlier eva mendes as a ''true beauty''. and yet only a few days ago i was chatting to my best girlfriend, telling her why i didn''t find eva mendes attractive at all. i find her face heavy, her jaw overly long and full, and her whole demeanor like an overblown, hot-house flower, whereas i prefer a paler kind of beauty. like uma thurman (drop dead gorgeous in my book) who tim finds....(and i quote)....''kinda odd looking''. and if anyone is interested, i''ve seen nicole kidman a number of times, up close and personal, and she is NOT that great looking in my opinion - tho she looks fabulous in the chanel #5 ads. and so on and so on. and lots of other things play a role. tim is turned right off by any woman who smokes. he can see a gorgeous woman and think ''WOW!'' - but if she lights up a cigarette, it''s like someone turned a fireman''s hose on him. when it comes to me and men, i dislike thin lips and find kissing them revolting (well, i used to!) and i could never, EVER, marry a man with a voice i didnt find attractive. or who had bad hands. they''re my three deal breakers - lips, voices, hands.

so the more i think about it, the more i think we can only ever say - "i''m pretty - in my OWN opinion" - or in that of our spouse, or some other specified person. there''s no absolute value for beauty, despite some features being generally more admired in certain cultures than in others.

probably makes most sense to behave in a humble manner rather than running the risk of being set straight by someone who doesnt agree with our own positive assessment of ourselves - and humility is always beautiful.
 

TravelingGal

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Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
17,193
I'm late on this one too.

Pretty? Hm. Baby sucked it out of me if it was there.

I'll classify myself as DESIRED. Hee hee.

Seriously though, I wouldn't want to ever be a head turner. Because, well, you are too engrossed in the fact you are a head turner. Best example I can give is this:

My cousin is drop dead gorgeous. A stunner. Men DROOL over her full lips, exotic eyes, full thick long hair, slim body and big (bought) boobs. She's also bright, but that's beside the point.

A bunch of us gals were walking down Robertson Blvd in West Hollywood. A lot of gay men around. Most of us gals were walking and gabbing and having a grand ole time. Not my cousin. She actually said to us....

"Isn't it weird to be walking down the street and no one is looking at you?"

To her credit, she did "tee hee" a bit to show how lame that sounded. We all turned around and stared at her incredulously and her sister (who is cute but didn't get those same looks) said, "Oh my God. You MEAN that."

I always thought that was sad. We mere mortals were having fun and enjoying the company while she was noticing that no one thought she was hot.
 

Dreamer_D

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Joined
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Messages
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Date: 6/11/2009 1:27:28 AM
Author: whitby_2773

Date: 5/22/2009 4:45:06 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 5/22/2009 10:11:01 AM

Author: janinegirly

Our society absolutely rewards people who are more attractive. It also rewards people who are more outgoing/big talkers (not so in other cultures). Just like beau pointed out (like the name
2.gif
) , this happens in day to day life as well as in the workplace. There is even data to show that taller men are more likely to be successful,etc. Alot of our culture is built around perception. If you are beautiful, the assumption is you must be successful and someone who should be sought after. Life is easier for those .. from childhood on. However, beauty fades and the crash is much tougher to take for those who were given an easier path. This makes me think of the stereotype that beautiful women are more likely to be crazy (I''m talking about sterotypes single bachehlor men give). The idea is that if you''re beautiful you get away with a lot as there is less pressure to adjust /reel in your feelings. You will still get attention and be considered desireable. The less attractive person is more likely to be funny, easy going, have some unique skill etc...because this is how they level the playing field.


Hope I''m not offending anyone, I just find some of these sociological behavioral stuff interesting, even if it can be overgeneralized.
Not here.


While I agree in general that attractive people may get some small breaks others might not, my life has been anything but easy, and I imagine other attractive people could say the same thing. ''Life'' does not care if you''re pretty.
2.gif

ditto this.
I''m not trying to contradict the intention behind both of your statements about the importance of beauty, but the research doesn''t suggest that being beautiful guarantees that you will have a good life. What it suggests is that *all else being equal* being beautiful most definitely predicts all of the things that Janine mentions. So the more accurate way to think of this issue is to say, "If *I* was more of less attractive than I am, would my life have been different?" The answer to this is irrefutably "yes". Whether we like it or not, this is one of the clearest and most replicated findings in social psychology from the last 50 years.

That said, the links between objective attractiveness, one''s social experiences, and ones self-concept and self-worth are more complicated than "If pretty then happy/succesful etc". On the one hand, people who have higher self-esteem -- who feel valued and loved by others and who love and value themselves -- feel more attractive. Their sense of self-worth colors their views of their looks! Of course, there is little or no objective accuracy to this
3.gif
Good looking people don''t have higher self-esteem! BEING beautiful in the objective sense doesn''t guarantee that you will be healthy psychologically. But being psychologically healthy pretty much guarantees that you willl feel pretty and attractive! But you probably won''t go around bragging about this, there is a real social prohibition about talking about one''s beauty -- sort of like their is a social prohibition about talking about one''s wealth
2.gif
Both are socially valued commodities and it isn''t "nice" to talk about how blessed one is in either respect.

But on the other hand, having self-worth that depends on being attractive -- requiring others to compliment you to feel good, for example -- is related to fragile and narcissistic self-esteem: An outward display of confidence that is nevertheless masking an inner uncertainty and fragility. We all know people like this
1.gif
They act confident but if they sense a slight or insult they bristle and lash out. Truly confident people don''t do this. And truly confident people do *not* say or feel that their worth is based on their appearance. In fact, they deny that vehemently.

Can you tell I did my PhD on this stuff?
3.gif
Most of my publications center on the reciprocal relations between self-esteem and one''s social experiences.
 

Dreamer_D

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
25,251
Date: 6/11/2009 1:46:44 AM
Author: TravelingGal
I'm late on this one too.

Pretty? Hm. Baby sucked it out of me if it was there.

I'll classify myself as DESIRED. Hee hee.

Seriously though, I wouldn't want to ever be a head turner. Because, well, you are too engrossed in the fact you are a head turner. Best example I can give is this:

My cousin is drop dead gorgeous. A stunner. Men DROOL over her full lips, exotic eyes, full thick long hair, slim body and big (bought) boobs. She's also bright, but that's beside the point.

A bunch of us gals were walking down Robertson Blvd in West Hollywood. A lot of gay men around. Most of us gals were walking and gabbing and having a grand ole time. Not my cousin. She actually said to us....

'Isn't it weird to be walking down the street and no one is looking at you?'

To her credit, she did 'tee hee' a bit to show how lame that sounded. We all turned around and stared at her incredulously and her sister (who is cute but didn't get those same looks) said, 'Oh my God. You MEAN that.'

I always thought that was sad. We mere mortals were having fun and enjoying the company while she was noticing that no one thought she was hot.
This is a perfect example of someone who's self-esteem is based on their looks, and the way that such contingency can affect someone's day to day life! It is sad.
 

Ellen

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Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
24,433
Date: 6/11/2009 1:27:28 AM
Author: whitby_2773

Date: 5/22/2009 4:45:06 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 5/22/2009 10:11:01 AM

Author: janinegirly

Our society absolutely rewards people who are more attractive. It also rewards people who are more outgoing/big talkers (not so in other cultures). Just like beau pointed out (like the name
2.gif
) , this happens in day to day life as well as in the workplace. There is even data to show that taller men are more likely to be successful,etc. Alot of our culture is built around perception. If you are beautiful, the assumption is you must be successful and someone who should be sought after. Life is easier for those .. from childhood on. However, beauty fades and the crash is much tougher to take for those who were given an easier path. This makes me think of the stereotype that beautiful women are more likely to be crazy (I''m talking about sterotypes single bachehlor men give). The idea is that if you''re beautiful you get away with a lot as there is less pressure to adjust /reel in your feelings. You will still get attention and be considered desireable. The less attractive person is more likely to be funny, easy going, have some unique skill etc...because this is how they level the playing field.


Hope I''m not offending anyone, I just find some of these sociological behavioral stuff interesting, even if it can be overgeneralized.
Not here.


While I agree in general that attractive people may get some small breaks others might not, my life has been anything but easy, and I imagine other attractive people could say the same thing. ''Life'' does not care if you''re pretty.
2.gif

ditto this.

i also think it''s salient to mention that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and one man''s meat is another man''s poison. as beau said, i think MOST men would send their wives in first if they were trying to make an impression with looks, but the truth is that what my husband, your husband, or her husband may find attractive are probably three totally different things. physical attractiveness is a hugely subjective measure.

for instance, someone mentioned earlier eva mendes as a ''true beauty''. and yet only a few days ago i was chatting to my best girlfriend, telling her why i didn''t find eva mendes attractive at all. i find her face heavy, her jaw overly long and full, and her whole demeanor like an overblown, hot-house flower, whereas i prefer a paler kind of beauty. like uma thurman (drop dead gorgeous in my book) who tim finds....(and i quote)....''kinda odd looking''. and if anyone is interested, i''ve seen nicole kidman a number of times, up close and personal, and she is NOT that great looking in my opinion - tho she looks fabulous in the chanel #5 ads. and so on and so on. and lots of other things play a role. tim is turned right off by any woman who smokes. he can see a gorgeous woman and think ''WOW!'' - but if she lights up a cigarette, it''s like someone turned a fireman''s hose on him. when it comes to me and men, i dislike thin lips and find kissing them revolting (well, i used to!) and i could never, EVER, marry a man with a voice i didnt find attractive. or who had bad hands. they''re my three deal breakers - lips, voices, hands.

so the more i think about it, the more i think we can only ever say - ''i''m pretty - in my OWN opinion'' - or in that of our spouse, or some other specified person. there''s no absolute value for beauty, despite some features being generally more admired in certain cultures than in others.

probably makes most sense to behave in a humble manner rather than running the risk of being set straight by someone who doesnt agree with our own positive assessment of ourselves - and humility is always beautiful.
whitby, I just want to preface my statement by saying this is nothing personal, I like ya! But the highlighted statement evoked quite a strong reaction from me.

I can honestly say, without the slightest of hesitancy, that not only has my husband never done this, I am quite certain the thought has never crossed his mind. He is not like that, thankfully. He doesn''t need to "use" me for anything, nor would I want, or allow him to. To me, that seems cheap. (and he knows he is not the only one who finds me attractive, just for the record, as I didn''t quote the latter part of your statement)

Anyway, I just wanted to set the record straight, as far as I was concerned. I didn''t like my hubby being lumped in with men who use their wives for their looks.
5.gif
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
24,433
Date: 6/11/2009 8:05:06 AM
Author: dreamer_dachsie

Date: 6/11/2009 1:27:28 AM
Author: whitby_2773


Date: 5/22/2009 4:45:06 PM
Author: Ellen


Date: 5/22/2009 10:11:01 AM

Author: janinegirly

Our society absolutely rewards people who are more attractive. It also rewards people who are more outgoing/big talkers (not so in other cultures). Just like beau pointed out (like the name
2.gif
) , this happens in day to day life as well as in the workplace. There is even data to show that taller men are more likely to be successful,etc. Alot of our culture is built around perception. If you are beautiful, the assumption is you must be successful and someone who should be sought after. Life is easier for those .. from childhood on. However, beauty fades and the crash is much tougher to take for those who were given an easier path. This makes me think of the stereotype that beautiful women are more likely to be crazy (I''m talking about sterotypes single bachehlor men give). The idea is that if you''re beautiful you get away with a lot as there is less pressure to adjust /reel in your feelings. You will still get attention and be considered desireable. The less attractive person is more likely to be funny, easy going, have some unique skill etc...because this is how they level the playing field.


Hope I''m not offending anyone, I just find some of these sociological behavioral stuff interesting, even if it can be overgeneralized.
Not here.


While I agree in general that attractive people may get some small breaks others might not, my life has been anything but easy, and I imagine other attractive people could say the same thing. ''Life'' does not care if you''re pretty.
2.gif

ditto this.
I''m not trying to contradict the intention behind both of your statements about the importance of beauty, but the research doesn''t suggest that being beautiful guarantees that you will have a good life. What it suggests is that *all else being equal* being beautiful most definitely predicts all of the things that Janine mentions. So the more accurate way to think of this issue is to say, ''If *I* was more of less attractive than I am, would my life have been different?'' The answer to this is irrefutably ''yes''. Whether we like it or not, this is one of the clearest and most replicated findings in social psychology from the last 50 years.

That said, the links between objective attractiveness, one''s social experiences, and ones self-concept and self-worth are more complicated than ''If pretty then happy/succesful etc''. On the one hand, people who have higher self-esteem -- who feel valued and loved by others and who love and value themselves -- feel more attractive. Their sense of self-worth colors their views of their looks! Of course, there is little or no objective accuracy to this
3.gif
Good looking people don''t have higher self-esteem! BEING beautiful in the objective sense doesn''t guarantee that you will be healthy psychologically. But being psychologically healthy pretty much guarantees that you willl feel pretty and attractive! But you probably won''t go around bragging about this, there is a real social prohibition about talking about one''s beauty -- sort of like their is a social prohibition about talking about one''s wealth
2.gif
Both are socially valued commodities and it isn''t ''nice'' to talk about how blessed one is in either respect.

But on the other hand, having self-worth that depends on being attractive -- requiring others to compliment you to feel good, for example -- is related to fragile and narcissistic self-esteem: An outward display of confidence that is nevertheless masking an inner uncertainty and fragility. We all know people like this
1.gif
They act confident but if they sense a slight or insult they bristle and lash out. Truly confident people don''t do this. And truly confident people do *not* say or feel that their worth is based on their appearance. In fact, they deny that vehemently.

Can you tell I did my PhD on this stuff?
3.gif
Most of my publications center on the reciprocal relations between self-esteem and one''s social experiences.
I can!
9.gif


Really interesting post dd, thanks for sharing! It makes a lot of sense.
 

monarch64

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
19,224
I''m super late in responding but I have been reading the thread the past few days and find it fascinating. My answer is no, I''m not pretty, BUT I have a lot of pretty features if that makes sense. My face isn''t classically pretty, I would say it''s attractive but not beautiful/pretty...but my smile is pretty and my eyes are pretty. I''ve heard in the past that I''m striking or beautiful, on occasion even gorgeous, but I attribute that to the fact that I''m also really tall with long hair and a nice enough figure and I usually dress to accentuate it. I think the best compliments I''ve ever received were "striking" or "stunning" but not pretty/gorgeous/beautiful. I value my height and body type appearance-wise much more than my "prettiness" factor.

I''ve also had people tell me (when I worked in retail) that I seem unapproachable and once or twice I''ve heard that I was intimidating. I think that definitely has to do with my height. Those comments really hurt my feelings, I hated knowing that someone didn''t feel comfortable initiating a conversation or asking me a question. Once I was in the ladies room of a restaurant and while I was waiting for the gal ahead of me to finish drying her hands I told her she had really beautiful hair. She gave me the nastiest look and said "Oh, don''t even talk to me, you''re like perfect" and rolled her eyes. I was dumbfounded, insulted, hurt, etc. It bothered me so much that apparently I''ve never forgotten it. That was maybe 10 years ago!
 

whitby_2773

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Joined
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Messages
2,655
Date: 6/11/2009 9:14:23 AM
Author: Ellen
Date: 6/11/2009 1:27:28 AM

Author: whitby_2773


Date: 5/22/2009 4:45:06 PM

Author: Ellen


Date: 5/22/2009 10:11:01 AM


Author: janinegirly


Our society absolutely rewards people who are more attractive. It also rewards people who are more outgoing/big talkers (not so in other cultures). Just like beau pointed out (like the name
2.gif
) , this happens in day to day life as well as in the workplace. There is even data to show that taller men are more likely to be successful,etc. Alot of our culture is built around perception. If you are beautiful, the assumption is you must be successful and someone who should be sought after. Life is easier for those .. from childhood on. However, beauty fades and the crash is much tougher to take for those who were given an easier path. This makes me think of the stereotype that beautiful women are more likely to be crazy (I''m talking about sterotypes single bachehlor men give). The idea is that if you''re beautiful you get away with a lot as there is less pressure to adjust /reel in your feelings. You will still get attention and be considered desireable. The less attractive person is more likely to be funny, easy going, have some unique skill etc...because this is how they level the playing field.



Hope I''m not offending anyone, I just find some of these sociological behavioral stuff interesting, even if it can be overgeneralized.
Not here.



While I agree in general that attractive people may get some small breaks others might not, my life has been anything but easy, and I imagine other attractive people could say the same thing. ''Life'' does not care if you''re pretty.
2.gif


ditto this.


i also think it''s salient to mention that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and one man''s meat is another man''s poison. as beau said, i think MOST men would send their wives in first if they were trying to make an impression with looks, but the truth is that what my husband, your husband, or her husband may find attractive are probably three totally different things. physical attractiveness is a hugely subjective measure.


for instance, someone mentioned earlier eva mendes as a ''true beauty''. and yet only a few days ago i was chatting to my best girlfriend, telling her why i didn''t find eva mendes attractive at all. i find her face heavy, her jaw overly long and full, and her whole demeanor like an overblown, hot-house flower, whereas i prefer a paler kind of beauty. like uma thurman (drop dead gorgeous in my book) who tim finds....(and i quote)....''kinda odd looking''. and if anyone is interested, i''ve seen nicole kidman a number of times, up close and personal, and she is NOT that great looking in my opinion - tho she looks fabulous in the chanel #5 ads. and so on and so on. and lots of other things play a role. tim is turned right off by any woman who smokes. he can see a gorgeous woman and think ''WOW!'' - but if she lights up a cigarette, it''s like someone turned a fireman''s hose on him. when it comes to me and men, i dislike thin lips and find kissing them revolting (well, i used to!) and i could never, EVER, marry a man with a voice i didnt find attractive. or who had bad hands. they''re my three deal breakers - lips, voices, hands.


so the more i think about it, the more i think we can only ever say - ''i''m pretty - in my OWN opinion'' - or in that of our spouse, or some other specified person. there''s no absolute value for beauty, despite some features being generally more admired in certain cultures than in others.


probably makes most sense to behave in a humble manner rather than running the risk of being set straight by someone who doesnt agree with our own positive assessment of ourselves - and humility is always beautiful.
whitby, I just want to preface my statement by saying this is nothing personal, I like ya! But the highlighted statement evoked quite a strong reaction from me.


I can honestly say, without the slightest of hesitancy, that not only has my husband never done this, I am quite certain the thought has never crossed his mind. He is not like that, thankfully. He doesn''t need to ''use'' me for anything, nor would I want, or allow him to. To me, that seems cheap. (and he knows he is not the only one who finds me attractive, just for the record, as I didn''t quote the latter part of your statement)


Anyway, I just wanted to set the record straight, as far as I was concerned. I didn''t like my hubby being lumped in with men who use their wives for their looks.
5.gif

aaaggghhhhh, ellen nooooooo!!

NOT meant literally! good lord! i cant imagine anything more - gees - what''s the word? strange? frankly, in my experience, most salesmen who see an attractive woman wander in to a showroom see her as ''easy pickings'', so she is generally exactly the WRONG person to send in! but this was my indirect, polite, way of responding to beau13''s post, and saying that perhaps, just perhaps, one''s husband was not the most objective judge of looks and that, in general, ALL our husbands think we''re beautiful! i let her example stand, but substituted my own interpretation to it, the interpretation, rather than the example, being my point. to be honest, i was slightly taken aback by the ''my husband sends ME in FIRST for things, because my beauty will win over the salesman'' - and the implied flip side that other women''s husbands here do not see them as that beautiful - or that the other women on this thread/site are less beautiful than said poster. i''ve seen many MANY beautiful women here (in my opinion), whose husbands i''m sure see them as every bit as beautiful as said poster. said poster would be wise to realize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that others may not be as positive towards one''s looks as one''s husband may be. there. said as non-confrontationally as i can manage, as i did NOT want to be overly specific or aggressive.

believe me when i tell you, my husband sending me in to bargain for something because he thinks i''m good looking would NOT enter his mind. the comment was part of my larger point that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and completely subjective and cultural - our own husbands perhaps being the LEAST objective people on the planet when it comes to us. which is as it should be, of course.

good gracious....the concept of tim using me for what he perceived as my beauty just makes the mind boggle....(you need ot meet tim to really *get* that)

sorry if i wasn''t clear - it was perhaps a tad euphemistic - have another read and see if you can see now the message (polite but emphatic) that i was trying to send, which was basically "perhaps it''s wise to get an opinion other than one''s own husband before reaching the belief that you''re beautiful to the rest of the world and have some sort of power in negotiations!" and pls keep in mind that i made this comment as a trained and experienced mediator. in my experience, the person who gets the most ''freebies'' is the person who is the most ANNOYING; there is a ''just go away!'' element that outweighs good looks every time!
 

Ellen

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Whitby, lol Thanks for clarifying. While I actually kinda "did" get the rest of your post, I couldn''t seem to translate the highlight any other way. I just, couldn''t seem to make it mean something else....

But at any rate, I do understand what you''re saying now, and agree.
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And this is why so many times I stay away from lengthy/more serious discussions, for fear of doing what I just did in misinterpreting things!
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princesss

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Hahahaha, so thinking back to my trip to Paris a few years ago (where I basically didn''t spend a dime on food because men kept insisting on buying it for me) I can safely assume I''m either stunningly beautiful or incredibly annoying!
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Monnie, I can''t imagine people being so rude to you! I think you''re a beautiful woman, but an especially kind one as well. I worked retail a lot, and it would have hurt me to be considered unapproachable. (I''ve been called intimidating, too, and I still have no clue why! I mean, yeah, I''m tall....but I''m also goofy, silly, and nice. People are more likely to see me dancing or laughing than they are to see me being standoffish, so I have no clue where intimidating comes from.)

And honestly, the only reason BF would send me in before him is because I''m WAY better at bargaining than he is. I definitely use the way I look to an advantage there. They never expect me to be a shrewd bargainer with the guts to say "I''ve done the research, this is what I''m willing to pay or I walk away." I guess being a research queen who grew up in a country where bargaining was expected has its benefits.
 

whitby_2773

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miss ellen,

i welcome your mis-interpretations - it keeps me on my toes and stops someone as wordy as me from getting sloppy!

frankly, i''m lucky anyone takes the time to read my posts! i was chatting to maisie on the phone last night and said that every time i post, i scroll back to see if *this* time i managed to make my post NOT the longest one in the thread!! (i know i''m wordy...just can''t help it for some reason....)

hope your day is going well - no offence ever taken (besides, i knew we were on the same page with this one!)
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janinegirly

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DD: had no idea you were a PHD on this stuff, that''s so interesting.

Thanks for putting it better than me. It''s clear beautiful people do not have easier lives (look at Hollywood!), but certain things do come easier (doors get opened more, seated faster, get job in front office more readily, compliments flow,etc). Yet often a beautiful person will not realize this since this has been their norm for their whole life. This is similar to race issues, often one sees the surface and it seems equal, but cannot necessarily understand that day to day, things are more of a struggle for certain segments of the population due to how they are perceived by society. In those cases, an individual has to battle and overcome perceptions based on their physical appearance alone--just to keep the playing field somewhat level. This is too big an issue to generalize, I''m just staying it''s hard for one person to understand another'' persons reality objectively--unless you spend alot of time thinking about it--because you will always assume your reality is the norm.

Haven''s recent post kind of drove that point home for me...how she said she got a lot of free meals b/c she was friendly..I mean I 100% believe Haven thinks this is the case, but to many of us, we have to chuckle like her hubby, b/c clearly it is related to her being attractive! (I''ve seen your picture Haven, you can''t deny it!! ;)). I mean I can''t say I''ve ever received free meals unless I complained about a service issue!
 

Pandora II

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9,613
I'm aware that I am considered beautiful by other people - I used to do a lot of modelling and was therefore paid for my looks. I know it has been an advantage for jobs I have had (even though they have had no need for good looks as part of the job), and my husband certainly considers me beautiful.

However, I know every fault I have and I can look seriously awful (photo in Newborns thread to prove the point!
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) and it has never done anything for my self esteem.

I've had psychiatrists tell me 'you're a pretty girl, there's no reason for you to be depressed' as if only ugly people are allowed to have problems.

I've been out with friends who I know aren't that good looking and they all got asked to dance and no-one ever asked me - so I got paranoid that there was something seriously wrong with my personality. Eventually I asked a group of male friends what the issue was... apparently I was intimidating, seen as aloof and 'ice-queenish' (actually I'm quite shy when it comes to social situations that involve potential dating) and I 'wasn't the kind of girl you'd just have a good time with' but someone you'd have to date seriously and would need balls to do so.
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I've had people assume that I'm brainless or just window dressing...

If you have a good figure, people have no qualms about pointing out when you've put on a few pounds - in a way that they would never do to someone who was on the larger size to start with.

I've had men date me purely for what I look like - one guy even said to me that he always dated beautiful women because he wasn't that good-looking and so it helped him get girls as they would think: well if she's with him then he must have something
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How I look has only been important to me when it's been earning me money. Otherwise I'm pretty uninterested in it. My hobbies and interests are far more important. I've been told by other women that this is because I don't need to work at it and that if they looked like me then they would make better use of it than I do - ie wear make-up more often, do more than just wash my hair, brush it and leave it to dry on it's own, wear clothes to look good rather than because they are warm/comfortable.

I've had people (who don't know me that well) tell me that I could have done better over my husband because he would be considered less good-looking. Well actually I'd rather marry a man who is clever, interesting and who I'm supremely happy and comfortable with than someone who is more interested in his body than mine!

It's sad that society puts so much store in people's looks, that it gives an advantage in the work-place and generally in life. I do admit that I realise these advantages and I am happy to use them, and would not opt to look differently, but I still think it's a bit sad.

I feel a bit awkward writing this post because, as Dreamer says, saying that yes you are beautiful is not something that is 'done' and also invites negative comments such as 'who does she think she is' or 'well I wouldn't consider her good-looking' etc etc

For my daughter, I would like her to be 'nice' looking (I am convinced that happiness equals being just slightly above average in every way!) but above all to have a healthy level of self esteem andd confidence - something that I never had growing up.
 

monarch64

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Date: 6/11/2009 10:43:53 AM
Author: princesss
Hahahaha, so thinking back to my trip to Paris a few years ago (where I basically didn''t spend a dime on food because men kept insisting on buying it for me) I can safely assume I''m either stunningly beautiful or incredibly annoying!
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Monnie, I can''t imagine people being so rude to you! I think you''re a beautiful woman, but an especially kind one as well. I worked retail a lot, and it would have hurt me to be considered unapproachable. (I''ve been called intimidating, too, and I still have no clue why! I mean, yeah, I''m tall....but I''m also goofy, silly, and nice. People are more likely to see me dancing or laughing than they are to see me being standoffish, so I have no clue where intimidating comes from.)

And honestly, the only reason BF would send me in before him is because I''m WAY better at bargaining than he is. I definitely use the way I look to an advantage there. They never expect me to be a shrewd bargainer with the guts to say ''I''ve done the research, this is what I''m willing to pay or I walk away.'' I guess being a research queen who grew up in a country where bargaining was expected has its benefits.
Princesss...thank you. The unapproachable comment came from a former boss of mine with whom I just didn''t feel a very strong connection. She was 25, I was 21, there was some strange dynamic there and I hope that''s where it came from. She told me that during my annual review, and said that she felt like customers didn''t want to approach me or something. I had never heard anything like that before, up until then and since that job I can''t go anywhere without someone asking me if I know where the tabasco sauce is, or if I could please reach something on a shelf or rack that is too high for them to reach!

I have been considering doing the Paris thing by myself in the next year or two. Finances would be an issue, but it''s comforting to know that maybe I won''t have to spend much on food if I go. Cause I can be annoying myself, ha ha!
 

jas

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Joined
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Messages
1,991
*struts in to techno beat*

I''m too sexy for this thread, too sexy for this thread, so sexy it hurts my head!

*struts out, oblivious to the looks received by other posters and lurkers*
 

princesss

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Messages
8,035
Do it! I think there''s something thrilling about going to a new city and having a budget (and, in my case, the inability to speak more than 10 words of French). There''s a great mix of cheap and free things to do, and tons of little sandwich shops and crepe stands where you can eat for cheap (or free, if you''re annoying enough, lol!).
 

beau13

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Joined
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Messages
2,172
Date: 6/11/2009 11:21:10 AM
Author: jas
*struts in to techno beat*

I''m too sexy for this thread, too sexy for this thread, so sexy it hurts my head!

*struts out, oblivious to the looks received by other posters and lurkers*
This is TOO funny!!
Hey if you got it...(you know the rest)
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Ellen

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Joined
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Messages
24,433
Date: 6/11/2009 11:21:10 AM
Author: jas

*struts in to techno beat*

I''m too sexy for this thread, too sexy for this thread, so sexy it hurts my head!

*struts out, oblivious to the looks received by other posters and lurkers*
You are hilarious woman.
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Lorelei

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Premium
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Apr 30, 2005
Messages
42,064
Date: 6/11/2009 11:45:23 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 6/11/2009 11:21:10 AM
Author: jas

*struts in to techno beat*

I''m too sexy for this thread, too sexy for this thread, so sexy it hurts my head!

*struts out, oblivious to the looks received by other posters and lurkers*
You are hilarious woman.
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Ditto, we missed you~!!~!
 

monarch64

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Date: 6/11/2009 11:24:30 AM
Author: princesss
Do it! I think there''s something thrilling about going to a new city and having a budget (and, in my case, the inability to speak more than 10 words of French). There''s a great mix of cheap and free things to do, and tons of little sandwich shops and crepe stands where you can eat for cheap (or free, if you''re annoying enough, lol!).
I''m dying to go, I took 4 years of French in high school and can read/write/comprehend spoken words but am not able to speak much. I''ll just be one of those tourists who acts like she doesn''t know what''s going on when in reality I''ll know what people are saying, ha ha. Have you ever read David Sedaris'' Me Talk Pretty One Day? He gives a hysterical description of that same scenario, takes place on a bus or something in France. Even the title of the book is in reference to him struggling to learn the language when he moves to France.
 

princesss

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Messages
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I *love* that book! Especially that chapter about the guy on the train imagining David Sedaris is a pickpocket. I was dying laughing so hard. Have you read "When You Are Engulfed In Flames" yet? The chapter about the woman next to him on a plane cracks me up so much! I have both as books on tape, and I''ve been listening to him non-stop for the last few weeks.
 

Haven

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Joined
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Messages
13,166
Tgal--Yikes about your cousin''s comment. I''m guessing she didn''t realize what she sounded like with that comment.

DD--Very interesting information, thank you for sharing. What an intriguing subject to choose for your doctoral studies.
 

Haven

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Joined
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Messages
13,166
Date: 6/11/2009 10:55:48 AM
Author: janinegirly
DD: had no idea you were a PHD on this stuff, that''s so interesting.

Thanks for putting it better than me. It''s clear beautiful people do not have easier lives (look at Hollywood!), but certain things do come easier (doors get opened more, seated faster, get job in front office more readily, compliments flow,etc). Yet often a beautiful person will not realize this since this has been their norm for their whole life. This is similar to race issues, often one sees the surface and it seems equal, but cannot necessarily understand that day to day, things are more of a struggle for certain segments of the population due to how they are perceived by society. In those cases, an individual has to battle and overcome perceptions based on their physical appearance alone--just to keep the playing field somewhat level. This is too big an issue to generalize, I''m just staying it''s hard for one person to understand another'' persons reality objectively--unless you spend alot of time thinking about it--because you will always assume your reality is the norm.

Haven''s recent post kind of drove that point home for me...how she said she got a lot of free meals b/c she was friendly..I mean I 100% believe Haven thinks this is the case, but to many of us, we have to chuckle like her hubby, b/c clearly it is related to her being attractive! (I''ve seen your picture Haven, you can''t deny it!! ;)). I mean I can''t say I''ve ever received free meals unless I complained about a service issue!

I stand by my original assertion!
 

monarch64

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Aug 12, 2005
Messages
19,224
Date: 6/11/2009 12:39:44 PM
Author: princesss
I *love* that book! Especially that chapter about the guy on the train imagining David Sedaris is a pickpocket. I was dying laughing so hard. Have you read ''When You Are Engulfed In Flames'' yet? The chapter about the woman next to him on a plane cracks me up so much! I have both as books on tape, and I''ve been listening to him non-stop for the last few weeks.
Yes! That''s exactly what I was talking about, ha ha! I haven''t read the Flames one yet, it was checked out of the library last time I was there. I need to reserve it!
 
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