Are they any disadvantages to Super Ideal Cut Diamonds?

[LLJsmom]

Beautiful and helpful pictures and diamonds! I’m looking forward to a thread on your new diamond (if you decide to make one).

Thank you @Lessics . I will create a thread when its done. I hope it will help people. Not everyone will want a super ideal. I do wish I had known that I did 8 years ago. But sometimes we just need to learn the hard way...

 

[jBright]

I created a thread before about “super ideals vs ideals vs gia XXX” - but even the responses in the thread differed in opinions to clarify what really constitutes a “super ideal” diamond. But.. maybe it’ll help!

Super Ideal VS Ideal VS GIA XXX

Hi all! I am patiently (more so impatiently) waiting for my setting to be made for my diamond.. and my neurotic mind cannot shutoff. I’ve googled this and I’ve searched it on the PS forums. But I really want to know for educational purposes.. What is the difference between a super ideal...

www.pricescope.com

 

[Kim N]

@LLJsmom very interesting analysis and photos! Could you share the proportions of your GIA XXX that you found leaky and the non-super ideal AGS 000?

 

[LLJsmom]

@LLJsmom very interesting analysis and photos! Could you share the proportions of your GIA XXX that you found leaky and the non-super ideal AGS 000?

I don’t even have that old stone anymore or any of the documents. Sorry. The AGS 000 is in one of my previous threads.

HCA 3.0 but AGS 000

Gypsy has said it before that AGS000 trumps he HCA but I never thought I would see one, believe it, and choose it over an HCA

www.pricescope.com

 

[Big Fat Facets]

i feel there are tremendous advantages to super ideal/ideal/agsl 000 diamonds

my personal, first hand experience is with super ideal/ideal/agsl 000 old euro and old mine/antique cushion cut diamonds

the optimal light performance and light return is integral, to the beauty of the diamond

a beautifully cut diamond is such a sight to behold. to me, it doesn't matter if it was cut yesterday or if it was cut 100 years ago

i don't see any disadvantages to a super ideal/ideal/agsl 000 diamonds except for low supply and inventory

 

[Snowdrop13]

I myself have been/started looking at the 1.5 - 1.75 ct range for my ring and do notice these "super ideal cuts" command quite a large premium and was curious myself if they really did command the premium. I guess my only thought was since i'm going to be purchasing the diamond online its almost a safety blanket for someone like me who is uneducated. Pretty much i figure super ideal, vvs1, DEF color, excellent everything, low to none fluoresce. puts the noob buyer like me in the safety zone.

This is pretty much my thinking too, although I’d happily extend the colour down to G, H or even I and clarity to VS2!

 

[Polabowla]

I notice a lot of the super ideals have very dark arrows in photos (idk under what lighting conditions those show up irl) but I personally do not like them.
I want to clarify i have not seen them irl, maybe then I would feel differently.
But based on the many pictures I have seen here, I don't like these kinds of stones for various reasons.

 

[Nina-W]

My ACA solitaire and band in the morning sun light. The rings need to be cleaned but they seem bright to me. I agree with @LLJsmom that in warm and low light settings, my ACAs are very white with little leakage.

 

[mommylawyer]

I notice a lot of the super ideals have very dark arrows in photos (idk under what lighting conditions those show up irl) but I personally do not like them.
I want to clarify i have not seen them irl, maybe then I would feel differently.
But based on the many pictures I have seen here, I don't like these kinds of stones for various reasons.

Ugh, the arrows. I forgot about that. It's not just super ideals, though. I believe that's a feature of perfect symmetry, which many people admire and enjoy. Theoretically, it's a positive, desirable feature. Personally, I'm not a fan of the arrows.

 

[LLJsmom]

My ACA solitaire and band in the morning sun light. The rings need to be cleaned but they seem bright to me. I agree with @LLJsmom that in warm and low light settings, my ACAs are very white with little leakage.

Gorgeous @Linnie . Love it! Beautiful pics too. Thanks for sharing such a perfect full sunlight pic. Was it blue skies or more white?

 

[LLJsmom]

Ugh, the arrows. I forgot about that. It's not just super ideals, though. I believe that's a feature of perfect symmetry, which many people admire and enjoy. Theoretically, it's a positive, desirable feature. Personally, I'm not a fan of the arrows.

It's good that you are examining in detail. Will help you make the right decision for you.

 

[daisygrl]

This is pretty much my thinking too, although I’d happily extend the colour down to G, H or even I and clarity to VS2!

Lol. This is pretty much what I did. I used to have GIA XXX in E and G both in VS1 but could not get the super-ideal out of my head. So I went down in color and clarity to lower the price in that aspect, and got myself a super-ideal in H and VS2 (both high H and high VS2 - nothing on the table, which is crucial for me). Knowing I have best of the best and don't have to stare at it in order to find a flaw is satisfying. I do not regret my decision one bit. (I also like to play with the stone's colors - see pics, it is fun).

Just a side note, I took my GIA XXX G color to David Klass to have a look and he said that because of the cut, it looked more like an I color (I guess due to lack of sparkle even though it did score 1.2 HCA and had an excellent IS). I am not saying a super-ideal H looks like an E, I am saying you will not notice the color as much due to overwhelming sparkle. (and I am color-sensitive and was very nervous about getting an H color diamond).
Additionally, often times super-ideals face up bigger when compared to the same size but GIA XXX - because of their edge-to-edge sparkle.

 

[daisygrl]

I notice a lot of the super ideals have very dark arrows in photos (idk under what lighting conditions those show up irl) but I personally do not like them.
I want to clarify i have not seen them irl, maybe then I would feel differently.
But based on the many pictures I have seen here, I don't like these kinds of stones for various reasons.

You do not see the black arrows in real life... the stone does not have them the way you see them in the pictures. When I take my pics, I make sure my phone cover is black (for the arrows to pop-up) and under a light-controlled environment. Also, the black arrows are mostly visible only under a lens of some kind (phone camera in my case) not easily observed with naked eye - with naked eye, you see the arrows to be silver to darker silver in color.

 

[mommylawyer]

You do not see the black arrows in real life... the stone does not have them the way you see them in the pictures. When I take my pics, I make sure my phone cover is black (for the arrows to pop-up) and under a light-controlled environment. Also, the black arrows are mostly visible only under a lens of some kind (phone camera in my case) not easily observed with naked eye - with naked eye, you see the arrows to be silver to darker silver in color.

I can see the arrows in real life on my Ideal cut diamond. I'm looking at them right now. They're not as dark as the pictures, but they are clearly visible.

 

[daisygrl]

I can see the arrows in real life on my Ideal cut diamond. I'm looking at them right now. They're not as dark as the pictures, but they are clearly visible.

Yes, I see them as well (in some lightning) but not black - like the ones I have in my profile. More like darker silver. The reason I responded was because people seem to fear that super-ideal stones are all black with black arrows all over them. More often than not, they are just silver color and harder to see but, yes, they are there for sure.

 

[mommylawyer]

Yes, I see them as well (in some lightning) but not black - like the ones I have in my profile. More like darker silver. The reason I responded was because people seem to fear that super-ideal stones are all black with black arrows all over them. More often than not, they are just silver color and harder to see but, yes, they are there for sure.

That's funny. I think super ideals really are a different breed of diamond. Perhaps one can only appreciate their beauty (and their differences/drawbacks) in person. Plus, every super ideal diamond is unique, and each will act differently in different conditions. I've been in OP's shoes before, and it is a challenging undertaking when you can't see the diamond(s) in person. Thank goodness for PS!

 

[Nina-W]

Gorgeous @Linnie . Love it! Beautiful pics too. Thanks for sharing such a perfect full sunlight pic. Was it blue skies or more white?

Thank you. I’d say blue. Photos were taken this morning. Typical New England area fall weather.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

What is an "alternative super ideal" that you reference--perhaps I'm misunderstanding? I'd definitely recommend that you try to go view some ideal cut diamonds in person, if you can. You need to visually see if you notice any difference with your own eyes, especially since you already have a XXX. But color also plays a factor too. And you mentioned you're color sensitive. A J/K ideal cut might look as bright as a G/H GIA XXX because of the flashes/sparkle factor. Color might not even be an issue at that point, especially if you're loving the flashes that you see with the ideal cut. I'm still struggling to understand what the industry considers to be a "super ideal" vs "ideal" diamond. What factors separate those two terms, if any? I think at some miniscule level, the terms themselves are about marketing. But I digress. Bottom line for me is that I prefer very well cut and very white diamonds. I'm in that camp of people that prefers all the sparkle, fire, brilliance, scintillation---the whole freaking shabang in whatever way it shows up. I don't care about what lighting conditions you need to be in to best see it, since the reality is I will never be under perfect lighting conditions all the time. All that matters to me is that when I do see those fireworks, they mesmerize me each and every time,

In regards to the question above (my bolding), it's one that is frequently asked.

The term “super ideal” does not have a standardized definition. But the basic concept describes a diamond that has characteristics above and beyond a baseline designation of ideal. Facet precision (hearts and arrows) is the most common differentiator. But if there are different versions of what constitutes an ‘ideal” cut, there are even more variances in different representations of ‘super ideal’.

The most straight forward definition is a diamond that features an AGS light performance grade of Triple Ideal and also displays a high level of 3D facet precision as documented in the computer generated AGS light maps, actual light performance imaging, or both.

Some vendors categorize certain GIA Excellent diamonds as super ideal, with or without the supporting evidence. A GIA graded diamond can be a super ideal, even though GIA top grade is Excellent. Within that very broad category are diamonds that have been cut for performance and do exhibit all the characteristics required to be legitimately marketed as ‘super ideal’. But those diamond require additional proof.

Some vendors criteria for super ideal goes even further than AGS Ideal plus precision hearts and arrows, ranging into a number of different factors including fluorescence, transparency evaluation, and craftsmanship aspects such as chips and extra facets.

Some vendors publish their exact qualifications and specifications. It is fair to expect ANY vendor representing a diamond as super ideal to explain exactly what they mean by the term and to provide proof of the claim.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Direct sunlight can be fickle, and potentially unflattering to any diamond. Depending on where the diamond is in relation to the sun, where your head is in relation to the table of the diamond, viewing distance to the diamond, time of day, whether there is any cloud cover or even haze, and other factors. Direct sunlight can be very harsh creating a situation where the contrast overwhelms brightness. It can also affect the pupil of the viewer in ways that impact the observation.

Filtered sun tends to allow more elements of the diamond's overall light performance to be observed. In that lighting environment well cut diamonds can look particularly beautiful.

 

[starbrite]

Direct sunlight can be fickle, and potentially unflattering to any diamond. Depending on where the diamond is in relation to the sun, where your head is in relation to the table of the diamond, viewing distance to the diamond, time of day, whether there is any cloud cover or even haze, and other factors. Direct sunlight can be very harsh creating a situation where the contrast overwhelms brightness. It can also affect the pupil of the viewer in ways that impact the observation.

Filtered sun tends to allow more elements of the diamond's overall light performance to be observed. In that lighting environment well cut diamonds can look particularly beautiful.

With all else being equal, will Super Ideal cut diamonds go "darker" in bright sun than other cuts?

 

[Kya]

Direct sunlight can be fickle, and potentially unflattering to any diamond. Depending on where the diamond is in relation to the sun, where your head is in relation to the table of the diamond, viewing distance to the diamond, time of day, whether there is any cloud cover or even haze, and other factors. Direct sunlight can be very harsh creating a situation where the contrast overwhelms brightness. It can also affect the pupil of the viewer in ways that impact the observation.

Filtered sun tends to allow more elements of the diamond's overall light performance to be observed. In that lighting environment well cut diamonds can look particularly beautiful.

Thanks for posting!

So then there is really no way to find a diamond that doesn’t look great under all lighting circumstances?

Also, do you think color of the diamond contributes at all?
I am asking because I never noticed this with original diamond that was an F but only good cut , and it irks me with my current ideal cut H .

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I myself have been/started looking at the 1.5 - 1.75 ct range for my ring and do notice these "super ideal cuts" command quite a large premium and was curious myself if they really did command the premium. I guess my only thought was since i'm going to be purchasing the diamond online its almost a safety blanket for someone like me who is uneducated. Pretty much i figure super ideal, vvs1, DEF color, excellent everything, low to none fluoresce. puts the noob buyer like me in the safety zone.

I think they are a wise buy for a newbie or experienced diamond buyer. But please know you are in a totally safe zone with clarity of VS1 and higher. You definitely do NOT have to go up to VVS1 to get a completely eyeclean stone. You generally can't see inclusions with a 10x loupe in a VS1. That is my favorite clarity because the stone is very clean but you don't pay the price premium for VVS!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

With all else being equal, will Super Ideal cut diamonds go "darker" in bright sun than other cuts?

The AGS light performance based cut grading system measures all the basic components of light performance -brightness, leakage, contrast, and fire. The system involves computer ray tracing of a 3D model of the diamond and calculating the results of some 30,000 virtual light rays. Diamonds earning a grade of ideal are in a very small range that produce optimal amounts of each factor.

A super ideal adds an extra element of optical precision that all facets are aligned in 3D space such that this tiny system of mirrors is projecting the exact output intended by the facet design.

The notion that a super ideal would perform worse than an inferior cut in sunlight seems like a tenuous argument.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Thanks for posting!

So then there is really no way to find a diamond that doesn’t look great under all lighting circumstances?

Also, do you think color of the diamond contributes at all?
I am asking because I never noticed this with original diamond that was an F but only good cut , and it irks me with my current ideal cut H .

There are no diamonds that look great in all conditions, because the particular lighting is key. Look at a well cut diamond in fluorescent lighting, incandescent lighting, halogen lighting, and LED lighting. It will look different in all of those. Halogen is my favorite! But the color of the walls and surroundings affects the diamond's appearance as well. My diamonds look the worst inside my car with tinted windows, because it makes them appear not as white as they appear in natural outdoor lighting.

Color of the diamond absolutely makes a difference. You can see it in some of LLJsmom's pictures above of the H and D color diamonds. The higher the color, the brighter the stone assuming equal cut. You don't notice the color so much in a well cut stone, though, unless you put it next to a D or E. I can see color in J and lower. I have antique cuts in I color and even a K in an antique asscher. But my superideal cut studs are H color. I'd want F-G for a superideal cut (modern round brilliant) ring, preferably.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Thanks for posting!

So then there is really no way to find a diamond that doesn’t look great under all lighting circumstances?

Also, do you think color of the diamond contributes at all?
I am asking because I never noticed this with original diamond that was an F but only good cut , and it irks me with my current ideal cut H .

I don't think any diamond can look great under all lighting circumstances. For instance, in extremely low light a well cut diamond will return what little light it encounters, but it won't look great. And certain diamond designs can look better than others under specific lighting conditions.

The value of a diamond designed for optimal beauty and cut with precision is that it will perform better under a wider range of lighting conditions. And that value continues to accrue to you as you make your way through the world, day after day, year after year.

 

[Kya]

There are no diamonds that look great in all conditions, because the particular lighting is key. Look at a well cut diamond in fluorescent lighting, incandescent lighting, halogen lighting, and LED lighting. It will look different in all of those. Halogen is my favorite! But the color of the walls and surroundings affects the diamond's appearance as well. My diamonds look the worst inside my car with tinted windows, because it makes them appear not as white as they appear in natural outdoor lighting.

Color of the diamond absolutely makes a difference. You can see it in some of LLJsmom's pictures above of the H and D color diamonds. The higher the color, the brighter the stone assuming equal cut. You don't notice the color so much in a well cut stone, though, unless you put it next to a D or E. I can see color in J and lower. I have antique cuts in I color and even a K in an antique asscher. But my superideal cut studs are H color. I'd want F-G for a superideal cut (modern round brilliant) ring, preferably.

I actually noticed that my things look extra good in one room that has halogen light!

But you have explained everything. I am thinking that under certain lighting it isn’t the cut that bothers me, rather I am seeing the color of the stone in light that doesn’t do great for the stone.

So makes sense that my issue is not the cut. My mistake is that I went down in color. While I was happy with how the H looked overall , the color does show up more some times. Makes sense because I never had this with my original GIA F even though that was far from well cut.

 

[Kya]

I don't think any diamond can look great under all lighting circumstances. For instance, in extremely low light a well cut diamond will return what little light it encounters, but it won't look great. And certain diamond designs can look better than others under specific lighting conditions.

The value of a diamond designed for optimal beauty and cut with precision is that it will perform better under a wider range of lighting conditions. And that value continues to accrue to you as you make your way through the world, day after day, year after year.

Thank you! So I am still a fan of super ideal all the way!

 

[starbrite]

The AGS light performance based cut grading system measures all the basic components of light performance -brightness, leakage, contrast, and fire. The system involves computer ray tracing of a 3D model of the diamond and calculating the results of some 30,000 virtual light rays. Diamonds earning a grade of ideal are in a very small range that produce optimal amounts of each factor.

A super ideal adds an extra element of optical precision that all facets are aligned in 3D space such that this tiny system of mirrors is projecting the exact output intended by the facet design.

The notion that a super ideal would perform worse than an inferior cut in sunlight seems like a tenuous argument.

Thanks for clarifying this. I now feel much more assured about selecting super ideal stones.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

LLJsmom, thank you for those wonderful pictures! What about that fabulous band - what diamonds are in that?
Not being a MRB person, my opinion has little value. But I remember being in Cartier in Vegas one year, peering into a case, and my friend said, "The good ones almost look black." And my friend has bought his wife a lot of diamonds, he's no novice.

 

[LLJsmom]

LLJsmom, thank you for those wonderful pictures! What about that fabulous band - what diamonds are in that?
Not being a MRB person, my opinion has little value. But I remember being in Cartier in Vegas one year, peering into a case, and my friend said, "The good ones almost look black." And my friend has bought his wife a lot of diamonds, he's no novice.

Thank you @Ibrakeforpossums The band has 30 pointers E and F's, done by my local jeweler. The center stone is a GIA E, which I bought myself. The stones are all very well cut, and white. My local jeweler is very strict on color, and cut, for a stodgy B&M. It's this 5 stone band that kept having a colorless MRB top of mind to me. It throws multicolored sparkles in every lighting. Finding a 2 carat that was a white as the 30 pointers in this band was no mean feat.