Are the hearts & arrows cut diamonds just a fad?

[sardonic]

hello again.

i really like the look of the hearts and arrows cut (square preferably); however, i''m worried that this cut is a trend/fad and will fade in popularity/value in the near future. am i worried for no reason, or is this a logical concern? are h & a diamonds here to stay? please help me figure out whether or not to stick with the traditional square cut (princess or assher) or go with a h & a cut...thanks!

 

[mepearl53]

I for one don''t believe these diamonds are a fad. The round brilliant has been around in one form or another for over 140 years. Through the history of design certain shapes as well as metals have come into favor and fallen out also. From my experience it''s a generational thing. Young ladies want something different than their mothers had. I feel a beautifully cut diamond will endure. You have to ask yourself is this a shape one will want to wear 20 years into the future. "Most Men" forget to up grade the diamonds on future occasions and many wait 25 to 30 years to purchase a new one and put the original one, "closer to the heart". The round has the best history but many of the new cuts, when well cut, should age well in time. Design has gotten tremendously better and this should also help with the new cuts.

 

[lmurden]

I don''t think that the value of your diamond will lessen just because it''s a H&A. It''s really up to you to decide what is important to you. Also your budget will determine if you can afford it and are willing to spend the extra money on a H&A or just get a larger Ideal cut diamond. I would see what''s out there in terms of Budget vs Size vs H&A. Good luck!!!

 

[icemyster]

I don''t think that H&A will loose value either. They are beautiful diamonds and they have tremendous sparkle....after all that is what I thought diamonds were supposed to do...sparkle. I don''t see these stones loosing value or becoming less popular. Another factor is that, in the diamond market at large, they are still "rare". If anything I would think demad for ideal cut stones like these would increase.

Good luck in your search.

 

[strmrdr]

I dont think its a fad.
Does it really matter if it is?
Diamonds arent bought for resale value.
The market could crash tomorrow. Who knows.

Go with what you love and forget about future value or you will never buy a diamond because they are all very bad investments for consumers.

 

[sardonic]

thank you for the replies...i''ll take all that into consideration during my purchase. i''ve seen hearts and arrows square cut diamonds at the GOG site; are their any other internet dealers that have an inventory of the square h & a diamonds? thanks again.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Hi Sardonic,
I''ll add an alternative veiwpoint here.
First though, I''d like to agree with strmrdr.
Do not buy diamonds as an investment tool.
They have been gaining in value rapidly lately- and have proven to hold value over a long period of time- still, buying them to make a profit is a very tough business ( speaking from experience)


I am not a lover of the look of H&A- so I can speak from an opposing point of veiw.
Generally speaking, stones with H&A are priced 15-25% above similar stones without the pattern.
To me, this means that H&A stones could actually be a bad deal for someone not committed to getting that pattern.

So- If you love the Hearts and Arrows, and want them in your stone, go for it! ( BTW- Asscher Cuts NEVER have H&A)
If you have a chance to see some well cut non H&A, I''d start there, and then proceed.

 

[Lynn B]

Date: 7/6/2005 3:35:15 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren
...I am not a lover of the look of H&A- ...

Interesting thread!

David,

Thank you for your "alternative view". It is always good to hear differing opinions. But out of curiosity, what is it that you don't care for?

Please believe that I respect your opinions... but I have to say, I LOVE the H&A pattern! From the first time I saw it, I knew that was IT for me!

Lynn

 

[MissAva]

I am with David...for me the pattern seems rigid. I dont knwo why I like the idea or a well cot diamond and that is what I want, but I dont want to see the black arrows (as in some pictures her on PS) I just dont care for it. Also I think that brands such as HOF might loose a little steam but not the cutting process. JMO.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Hi Lynn,
THANK you for opening up and keeping this conversation alive.

I guess that, for me, it has to do with how I learned about diamonds. When I was taught to grade the cut of a diamond, no one though Hearts and Arrows was desirable- or a small ( 56-59%) table.
So, i was taught that 60% was the correct number for both table and diameter.
Of course, we did not look at stones with GIA reports- but the standards used at Harry Winston ( where I was trained) were 60/60.
So the first time I ever saw an "Ideal Cut" I said- "Wow small table"
If you were used to looking at 60%'ers and saw a 56, the difference is dramatic.
I did not ( still don't) find the small table as attractive as a 60%. This could be a combination of what I am used to and my actual preferences.

Here's another, less publicized fact: Most "Ideal" cut diamonds look smaller than a 60/60 of the same weight.
Many well cut 60/60 1.00's will have a spread of 6.5mm.
Many "Ideal" cut diamonds are 6.2mm.
Compare the two and you will notice a differnce in size.

You may also notice a difference in the type of sparkle the diamond exhibits.
Some say an "Ideal" cut has more fire, a 60/60 more sparkle. Whatever, I still prefer the look of a well cut 60/60 wioth NO hearts and arrows.

Then, the kicker.
To get all this: Smaller table, smaller appearance etc...I have to pay more???


Just some of the reasons I prefer good old well cut diamonds with no label.


PS - THANKS Matatora
We all know I can use all the friends I can get here on PS....hehehehe

 

[Lynn B]

Thank you, David! Very interesting!

Can you possibly post some photos of some various views of a well-cut 60/60 diamond, please? I have never seen one (that I know of) but I''d really like to. And I''ll bet our fellow PSers would enjoy the "eye candy", too!

Thank you!

Lynn

 

[Lurchie]

Fascinating thread. Can something be a fad if 99% of the population has never heard of it? At least I never had before I found PS. You should buy what you love!

David, really cool to understand the evolution of what is considered desirable. You''re such a rock star - whaddya mean you need more friends on PS?

Do we know who first started identifying these as H&A?

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Lynn,
I can just about guarantee that you''ve seen well cut 60/60 diamonds. If you''ve seen many round diamonds, and they looked good, some of them were , most likely, 60/60.
Until recently, this was what most cutters shot for- many still do. So 60/60''s ( among well cut stones) are common
When I mentioned that the difference in table size is readily apparent, I meant with a loupe.

I''ll see about posting a few photos

 

[moremoremore]

A well cut stone will never get old and tired. YOu need to decide if the H&A premium is worth it to you! (and not to mention how freakin deep those square H&A cuts are!)


p.s. Lurchie. I NEED MORE COW BELL (couldn't resist!! LOL)...YOu and Reena are my fav avatars!

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Lurchie- THANK YOU!!!

Very good point.
The "bru-haha" about H&A has been exasserbated by the growth of internet diamond sales.
It may be something of a tempest in a tea pot.
In this country, the vast majority of diamonds are still sold by retail jewelers- most of whom never mention anything about H&A. Therfore most consumers know nothing of H&A.

A company called "Lazaare Kaplan" was the first to market "Ideal" cut diamonds.

I remember a meeting I had with the company currently promoting "Hearts on Fire"- the guy was talking up Hearts and Arrows in the late eighties. So this has been going on for a while


Obviously, if I could spell better, I'd have more PS friends....heheheheh

 

[diamondsrock]

"I dont want to see the black arrows (as in some pictures her on PS) I just dont care for it."

that is exactly how I feel. I don''t know why but I find the arrows distracting when they are really black and dark. I wonder if it''s only apparent in certain lighting conditions (low light) or if it is really visible under all kinds of lighting situations. Can anyone with an H&A help me on this one? Do you see the arrows all the time or only once in a while? Is it from head shadow? I am starting to think I like brilliant ideal cuts over fiery ideal cuts since I don''t see those dark arrows in pictures of those. It seems the brilliant ideal cuts have larger tables also.

 

[belle]

Date: 7/6/2005 3:50:35 PM
Author: Matatora
I am with David...for me the pattern seems rigid. I dont knwo why I like the idea or a well cot diamond and that is what I want, but I dont want to see the black arrows (as in some pictures her on PS) I just dont care for it. Also I think that brands such as HOF might loose a little steam but not the cutting process. JMO.

i don''t think of the pattern as ''rigid''. i would call it precise

the h&a pattern represents precision in cutting, which yeilds amazing light return. i have found that these stones outperform other stones under a wide range of lighting conditions. by that, i mean they sparkle everywhere! even in the dark! (almost)

one of my favorite viewing conditions for h&a stones is at night, with only the computer monitor or t.v. on. with the stone backlit in this lowlight situation, the arrows just ''pop''!
and don''t worry matatora, the arrows aren''t black. they are more of a silvery white. you can see them as black, but it takes a viewer or at least very unique lighting conditions to see them this way.

here is a pic of an aca h&a stone that i took recently....

 

[belle]

Date: 7/6/2005 5:42:08 PM
Author: diamondsrock
''I dont want to see the black arrows (as in some pictures her on PS) I just dont care for it.''

that is exactly how I feel. I don''t know why but I find the arrows distracting when they are really black and dark. I wonder if it''s only apparent in certain lighting conditions (low light) or if it is really visible under all kinds of lighting situations. Can anyone with an H&A help me on this one? Do you see the arrows all the time or only once in a while? Is it from head shadow? I am starting to think I like brilliant ideal cuts over fiery ideal cuts since I don''t see those dark arrows in pictures of those. It seems the brilliant ideal cuts have larger tables also.

you don''t see the arrows black

i actually tried (and tried) to get some good dark arrows shots with this stone, but the fact is, the dark arrows aren''t readily seen in normal lighting conditions. really all you see is sparkle sparkle sparkle!

 

[Rank Amateur]

Date: 7/6/2005 4:01:01 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren
Hi Lynn,
THANK you for opening up and keeping this conversation alive.


Here''s another, less publicized fact: Most ''Ideal'' cut diamonds look smaller than a 60/60 of the same weight.
Many well cut 60/60 1.00''s will have a spread of 6.5mm.
Many ''Ideal'' cut diamonds are 6.2mm.
Compare the two and you will notice a differnce in size.

Then, the kicker.
To get all this: Smaller table, smaller appearance etc...I have to pay more???

Your "facts" leave a lot to be desired, David.

Most AGS 0 cuts (Ideals) are right at 6.5mm. You need to really search to find a 1 ct 6.2 mm stone of any sort. 60/60s seem to be similar or slightly smaller diameters than AGS 0s.

 

[diamondsrock]

belle, that stone is stunning! Thanks for the info. on the arrows. I figured they weren''t apparent all of the time but it seems like every picture I see of them online they are very visible. Maybe it''s just becuase of the way they are photographed?

I''ve decided not to do an upgrade after all and am thinking of a small pendant instead (will save money this way!!) I was thinking if I should get an h&a diamond or if it would even matter in a pendant. I want the most sparkle I can get for the money but I don''t know if it''s worth the premium on a small stone (.33 probably). I don''t want to just walk into the mall and buy one because I already tried that and they wanted $1100 for a .33 H I1 (granted, it was mounted and came with the chain.) I''d rather build my own online.

 

[icekid]

hearts and arrows a fad? yeah, if sparkly diamonds are a fad!

also, like belle mentioned- the arrows are NOT normally visible the way we see them in the pictures sometimes! it''s more as you move about then you might get a glimpse of an arrow! personally, i think that''s cool!

as has been mentioned, i highly doubt that they will decrease in value, but then we''re not buying diamonds as an investment anyway! buy what you love.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Date: 7/6/2005 5:49:03 PM
Author: Rank Amateur

Date: 7/6/2005 4:01:01 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren
Hi Lynn,
THANK you for opening up and keeping this conversation alive.


Here''s another, less publicized fact: Most ''Ideal'' cut diamonds look smaller than a 60/60 of the same weight.
Many well cut 60/60 1.00''s will have a spread of 6.5mm.
Many ''Ideal'' cut diamonds are 6.2mm.
Compare the two and you will notice a differnce in size.

Then, the kicker.
To get all this: Smaller table, smaller appearance etc...I have to pay more???

Your ''facts'' leave a lot to be desired, David.

Most AGS 0 cuts (Ideals) are right at 6.5mm. You need to really search to find a 1 ct 6.2 mm stone of any sort. 60/60s seem to be similar or slightly smaller diameters than AGS 0s.

Ok Rank,
Run a search on PS database.
1.01 cts, G–H color, VS2–SI1 clarity, 58–63% depth, 53–58% table, AGS certified.
I find quite a few 6.35-6.4 stones

Then run the same search, changing the table and depth to 60/60.
The 60/60''s are larger- even if there''s only a few listed, not even one of the AGS stones matched the 6.57mm spread of one of the 60/60''s.

I''ve seen thousands and thousands ofcarat stones.
As a rule, "Ideal" cuts are never spready stones.
When I say spready, I mean a diamond that looks it''s weight, or larger.
Of course if a stone is too spready, then you have a problem.

I''ve never seen a 60/60 stone I''d call too spready.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

BTW- I also agree that H&A diamonds will not loose value relative to non ideal diamonds over the long run.

 

[rickyrockranger]

Rank (and others),

People like Dave (vendors) actually handle hundreds of diamonds a week, IN PERSON. I''d be careful casting doubt on his credibility.

I''m not saying vendors are infallable, but, there is a huge difference between learing something over the internet, and actually observing something, in real life, hundreds and hundreds of times.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/6/2005 7:11:04 PM
Author: rickyrockranger
Rank (and others),


People like Dave (vendors) actually handle hundreds of diamonds a week, IN PERSON. I''d be careful casting doubt on his credibility.


I''m not saying vendors are infallable, but, there is a huge difference between learing something over the internet, and actually observing something, in real life, hundreds and hundreds of times.

They also have agendas and preferences and David admits his is 60/60''s and rhino admits his is super-ideal h&a diamonds and kick butt fancies, Brian admits his is h&a diamonds, Pauls are h&a diamonds and ags0 pricess cuts it doesnt prove a thing.

Whats does prove stuff is all the data thats been collected and happy buyers that have compared the goods to other diamonds around them.

Im not saying David is wrong or right he has his preferences and so be it he is entitled to them.
But so does everyone else.

Iv seen crappy 60/60 diamonds and iv seen nice 60/60 diamonds.
Iv seen crappy h&a diamonds and iv seen nice h&a diamonds.
I prefere the nice h&a diamonds but id take a nice asscher over all of em :}

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Of course the best Ideal Cut stones are gorgeous- I never meant to imply they were not.

But I''ve seen more small tabled diamonds which soemhow lacked something, as opposed to parger tabled stones. Not that they were "crappy" but it is tough to get the perfect H&A stone. When the cutter misses, by even a little bit- the resultant diamond is harder to sell.
A 60% tabled diamond does not need perfect symmetry- good is more than good enough.
In other words- In my experience, it''s tougher to find a great looking stone with 56% table as opposed to a 61 table, for example.
A great loooking 56% table , again is a glory to behold-people like Rhino know how to pick''em- that''s their business.

I think it''s easier for a cutter to work with a slighly larger table, therfore, results on 59-60-61% table diamonds- none of them currently considered "Ideal"- are consistently better.

I am fortunate, and I do get to hold, and examine hundreds of stones in a given month- That''s my experience.
Strmrdr- all due respect to everyone.
I enjoy contributing here.
As a professional, my inout here is a benefit. At the very least, I learn a lot posting and reading here.

My motive is to honestly add input to broaden the conversation. I am not here "pushing" anything. I don''t have a secret stock of 60/60''s ready to srping onto the scene.
No question, there are experts on H&A diamonds here, and folks looking for that info can find it.
I''m simply here to say there is another point of veiw.
I intend no disrespect to you, or anyone else here.

 

[strmrdr]

David,
I enjoy you being around here you help keep it real.
Iv sent a few people your way for colored diamonds.

Your very honest about your preferences and its kewl.

Its no secret that mine are asschers and a very narrow range of super-ideal h&a round diamonds.

anyway....
back to my point:
I was responding to rickyrockranger, seeing 100 diamonds a week does not make an automatic expert on all diamonds.
Even if it did there are preferences and agendas that come into play.
Iv talked to vendors that have seen thousands of diamonds over the years that have managed to learn very little about them other than the profit margins they can get from them.

We as consumers need to be careful in who we pick to be our advisers.
Someone who looks at a hundred diamonds a week may or may not qualify.
You qualify even if I dont agree with ya :}

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 7/6/2005 4:01:01 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren


Here''s another, less publicized fact: Most ''Ideal'' cut diamonds look smaller than a 60/60 of the same weight.
Many well cut 60/60 1.00''s will have a spread of 6.5mm.
Many ''Ideal'' cut diamonds are 6.2mm.
Compare the two and you will notice a differnce in size.

You may also notice a difference in the type of sparkle the diamond exhibits.
Some say an ''Ideal'' cut has more fire, a 60/60 more sparkle. Whatever, I still prefer the look of a well cut 60/60 wioth NO hearts and arrows.

Then, the kicker.
To get all this: Smaller table, smaller appearance etc...I have to pay more???

Just a small disenting voice David.
a 60-60 tolkowsky with medium girdle measures 6.48mm.
The same stone with a 56% table (and 61.4% depth) measures 6.45mm
The stone with the smaller table will have a slightly brighter appearance and can look the same size to the eye because of that. And it will have an impercepably larger amount of fire.
In addition the smaller table diamond has more verticle spread i.e. - more diamond sticks out the top of the ring setting.

But i personally believe there will be many more fads to come in the diamond world.

Sergey is working on some nice ones - a couple of years off - but with every potential to add to the current trends.

 

[widget]

I''ve had an H&A question forever, and this seems like a good place to ask it.

Every once in a while I see a picture of a diamond with what I call a "wagon wheel" effect. I assume the the "spokes" are arrows.

Is this considered good or bad? I notice the pretty diamond Belle posted doesn''t show that effect, and I much prefer that look.

Just curious, actually. The truth is I''m an asscher/EC/OEC kinda girl, myself...

widget

 

[Kaleigh]

I was wondering the same thing widget. I thought all those H&A''s had those black arrows that you see in so many of the pictures. The pic that belle posted didn''t have them and actually I prefer that. Am I in the minority??? Oh and widget, I''m with you asschers rule!!! Not that I have one, but I can dream can''t I???