are some ''conflict'' diamonds ok?

[purrfectpear]

Nor does satire mean that something is not real or serious, or has somehow been trivialized. Ask the New York Post this week. Saturday Night Live has satirized some serious topics too.

Excuse me, but now I must go test the Ultrasonic cleaner. That blood is soooo hard to remove

Perhaps when I am done I''ll send over some oxygen. I bet that air is thin up on those soap boxes

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 7/15/2008 7:37:21 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Nor does satire mean that something is not real or serious, or has somehow been trivialized. Ask the New York Post this week.

I think you mean The New Yorker...

ETA: Hollywood movie(s) or not, the loss of human lives and the ruination of the futures of many of the survivors in both Sierra Leone and Darfur are not more/less important depending on which country we're talking about, and whether or not there was a movie made. They're both heinous crimes against humanity. Period.

 

[John P]

Date: 7/15/2008 2:29:02 PM
Author: jewelerman

John,Thank you so much on posting info from the Kimberly Process...the last jewelry store i worked for tested its employees on the kimberly process so they could help people understand the facts vs the hype created by movies and the uninformed.As for the historic jewels...they are here and much about the stories we hear are fact but alot of those ''facts'' has been created to feed the fire and interest in the stones.

You''re welcome and I''m glad to hear you had a program in your last store. I''ve spoken at a few events on this subject and feel it''s imperative that we understand both the realities and the broad scope of the issues. Just as with technical diamond education I find it unfortunate that many in the trade are not aware of the history or the current events.

 

[angel_nieves]

John
Thank you for posting the info about the recent boycott of Burmese rubies and about the labs. I have been keeping up more with the political events there than what is going on with the gem trade in that region.

 

[John P]

Date: 7/15/2008 7:12:01 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Thanks John for the educational post.

While I think the Kimberley Process is great in theory, in my research there seems to be a bit too many holes in it for my peace of mind.

No problem, and you’re not alone. I think many people, including the educated trade-at-large, are similarly concerned. It’s why responsible governments develop rigid controls to supplement Kimberley - are you familiar with the Belgian AML laws, for example? I’m sure you know of AI, GW and other NGO monitoring that has resulted (finally) in exposures, sanctions and expulsions... No doubt this causes the rogues to attempt other channels, resulting in what happened in Venezuela.

Fortunately the USA plays special hardball on this subject, especially post 9/11, with monitoring of rough and polished imports (and exports). The Patriot Act actually classifies polished diamonds as financial instruments, making them subject to anti-money laundering rules. This is not some simple FTC violation either. Enforcement comes from the Treasury Department, Homeland Security and the US Justice Department. Not only must US dealers comply; overseas cutters and manufacturers must follow these rules as well or risk exclusion from trade. This monitoring isn’t just for consumers, it’s about Homeland Security - and an overseas element doing domestic business could wind up taking a trip to “sunny Guantanamo” if they are outside the rules. As an overseas cutter we’re quadruple-firewalled by KPCS the Belgian laws, the USA Patriot Act and voluntary participation in the JVC AML Program. In fact, I experienced some tightness firsthand...when I last returned from Antwerp my port of entry was Houston and, like a good boy, I claimed the single diamond I had returned with (for my own wedding ring). That single 0.78 point polished diamond, coupled with the occupation I gave on my declarations form, got me a 30 minute trip to the "red line" where I was required to explain and produce documentation showing provenance.

With the climate in Burma and the Venezuelan situation both at an apex it’s not a surprise that last year our domestic rough import laws were stepped up. Although far less rough than polished comes into the USA (all previously subject to the Clean Diamond Trade Act since 2003) controls became more rigid last October. Now all rough importers are required to register a copy of the KP certificates arriving with imported diamonds with the United States Census Bureau upon entry with U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

With the above said, I think a singularly important sentiment is still that "conflict-free" only scratches the surface of the issue.

As I wrote before, the industry works hard to ensure conflict-free provenance for the end-user. No one wants to give a tainted symbol. No one. And while all these "conflict free" controls are well and good the drawback is the risk of overlooking the real issue; the fact that - even as we focus on conflict free - there are those who still suffer where resources are rich and people are poor.

People committed to humanitarian solutions can help by finding outlets and organizations committed to causes and philosophies they agree with. We may not be able to change politics or governments, but we can contribute. This becomes even more necessary as boycotts go into effect - because as revenues are depleted these relief organizations are depended on, more and more, to provide basic necessities for already-subjugated peoples.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 7/15/2008 7:37:21 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Nor does satire mean that something is not real or serious, or has somehow been trivialized. Ask the New York Post this week. Saturday Night Live has satirized some serious topics too.


Excuse me, but now I must go test the Ultrasonic cleaner. That blood is soooo hard to remove

Perhaps when I am done I'll send over some oxygen. I bet that air is thin up on those soap boxes

"Darfar"/Darfur--New York Post/The New Yorker

I have a huge appreciation for satire...when its informed.

...and Purrfectpear, your comments are not what I would consider satire. Trivial, yes.

For those who think we should only worry about "own backyard," welcome to economic globalization.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 7/15/2008 8:54:41 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 7/15/2008 7:12:01 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Thanks John for the educational post.

While I think the Kimberley Process is great in theory, in my research there seems to be a bit too many holes in it for my peace of mind.

It’s why responsible governments develop rigid controls to supplement Kimberley - are you familiar with the Belgian AML laws, for example? I’m sure you know of AI, GW and other NGO monitoring that has resulted (finally) in exposures, sanctions and expulsions... No doubt this causes the rogues to attempt other channels, resulting in what happened in Venezuela.

I'm not actually not familiar with Belgian AML laws. Would you like to fill me in a little bit? Venezuela...

As an overseas cutter we’re quadruple-firewalled by KPCS the Belgian laws, the USA Patriot Act and voluntary participation in the JVC AML Program. In fact, I experienced some tightness firsthand...when I last returned from Antwerp my port of entry was Houston and, like a good boy, I claimed the single diamond I had returned with (for my own wedding ring). That single 0.78 point polished diamond, coupled with the occupation I gave on my declarations form, got me a 30 minute trip to the 'red line' where I was required to explain and produce documentation showing provenance.

Wow. That sucks for you, but I'm glad that it seems like someone is paying attention...

With the climate in Burma and the Venezuelan situation both at an apex it’s not a surprise that last year our domestic rough import laws were stepped up. Although far less rough than polished comes into the USA (all previously subject to the Clean Diamond Trade Act since 2003) controls became more rigid last October. Now all rough importers are required to register a copy of the KP certificates arriving with imported diamonds with the United States Census Bureau upon entry with U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

With the above said, I think a singularly important sentiment is still that 'conflict-free' only scratches the surface of the issue.

What is the deal with these "conflict neutral" diamonds? I haven't heard that much about them, but what I hear...I'm really not all that excited about it...

As I wrote before, the industry works hard to ensure conflict-free provenance for the end-user. No one wants to give a tainted symbol. No one. And while all these 'conflict free' controls are well and good the drawback is the risk of overlooking the real issue; the fact that - even as we focus on conflict free - there are those who still suffer where resources are rich and people are poor.

People committed to humanitarian solutions can help by finding outlets and organizations committed to causes and philosophies they agree with. We may not be able to change politics or governments, but we can contribute. This becomes even more necessary as boycotts go into effect - because as revenues are depleted these relief organizations are depended on, more and more, to provide basic necessities for already-subjugated peoples.

I just don't have any words really...it just makes me sad.

ETA: THANK YOU COATI!!!!!!DITTO!!!

 

[angel_nieves]

Date: 7/15/2008 7:37:21 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Nor does satire mean that something is not real or serious, or has somehow been trivialized. Ask the New York Post this week. Saturday Night Live has satirized some serious topics too.

Excuse me, but now I must go test the Ultrasonic cleaner. That blood is soooo hard to remove

Perhaps when I am done I''ll send over some oxygen. I bet that air is thin up on those soap boxes

Thank you Coati!!!
I was hoping that this thread would not take this type of tone to it.

 

[HollyS]

I think we can all find better things to do than be flip, be sarcastic, be preachy, be sanctimonious -- and the ever popular tactic -- passive aggressive to each other. We are bound to disagree on what constitutes ''important'' topics and what passes for humor. We are all from different backgrounds and different parts of the world. Let''s not get bitchy with each other. It doesn''t become any of us. And yes, I am including myself in this admonishment.

Shall we put this to rest?

 

[angel_nieves]

Shall we have pie now

 

[surfgirl]

never mind...

 

[John P]

Date: 7/15/2008 9:58:15 PM
Author: FrekeChild

I'm not actually not familiar with Belgian AML laws. Would you like to fill me in a little bit? Venezuela...

There is a litany of rules, but here are the basics: Each diamond company has to assign an AML-officer and all personnel with outside contact must go through training regarding the regulations. The most detailed portion is KYC (know your customer). We are required to take all necessary steps to identify who is behind any company we deal with. We must have their articles of incorporation on file, keep copies of ID's/Passports of each company's officers and documentation that XYZ employees are entitled to represent that company. We must investigate and verify that nobody involved in our customer-companys have any political stature or connection through relatives. At the end of each year our AML officer must enter an affidavit about last year's operation of the program. We are required to report any suspicious activity to the AML authorities, and that includes incoming payments. Those payments must come from the on-file bank of our known/investigated customers. Incoming funds from anywhere else are suspicious. There is more to it - my colleagues in the Antwerp HQ are actually better-versed, but that's what I have gleaned.

Since most of our dealers are in the US we participate in a similar program here. The difference is that every company in the US is required to assess their own risks and develop their own program. In Belgium the rules are very clear and quite strict, especially with identification worldwide - which can be a difficult exercise.

As an overseas cutter we’re quadruple-firewalled by KPCS the Belgian laws, the USA Patriot Act and voluntary participation in the JVC AML Program. In fact, I experienced some tightness firsthand...when I last returned from Antwerp my port of entry was Houston and, like a good boy, I claimed the single diamond I had returned with (for my own wedding ring). That single 0.78 point polished diamond, coupled with the occupation I gave on my declarations form, got me a 30 minute trip to the 'red line' where I was required to explain and produce documentation showing provenance.

Wow. That sucks for you, but I'm glad that it seems like someone is paying attention...

The drag of it was that I was so bone-tired. Nice end to the story though; two customs officers (both men) asked for a business card because of that diamond. I even showed them the hearts & arrows. Call me a geek. It's ok, I can take it.

What is the deal with these 'conflict neutral' diamonds? I haven't heard that much about them, but what I hear...I'm really not all that excited about it...

As I understand it, by donating a percentage of your sales purchase price to fund the associated NGOs and charities one can make his/her diamond "conflict neutral" through the program, whether consumer or retailer. It's an idea that may be appealing (not such a great name for it IMO) if registering the diamond you bought as "conflict neutral" on their website is salve for your soul. Other initiatives, like Dreams Of Africa take 100% of the profit for a piece of jewelry and send it to a specific charity. Martin Rapaport has been trying to jump-start his fair trade diamonds program for several years. This would actually track monies from the sales of diamonds from Sierra Leone back to Sierra Leone, where a given portion of those monies would serve to improve the quality of living for the diggers. Not surprisingly, he is having trouble getting the powers-that-be to play ball. "The Diamond Road" on the Discovery channel showed how difficult it is for someone, even as powerful as Rapaport, to go into West Africa and create any kind of meaningful change... Nevertheless, Martin's work, those ever-present relief organizations and other initiatives I have listed (as well as many I have not) are making a difference. It's astonishing how far even a small amount of money - small to you and I - will go in these countries. Do you know "The Starfish Flinger?"

Personally I'm more inclined to make donations outright, but there are those who may prefer the "conflict neutral" concept or other like-minded initiatives. People are different and I applaud any legitimate channel as long as its purpose - and results - truly put funds where they can help people.

 

[FrekeChild]

Wow the the Belgium AML laws sound pretty strict.

I think the end of your story is pretty fantastic, and I am not surprised. And I think it''s so funny that you showed them the arrows. LMAO.

As for the "conflict neutral" BS (because that is so what it is) I''m just not impressed. It''s just a feel good strategy, that in my opinion is pretty much worthless-like putting a band aid on a broken bone. Maybe I''m being over critical. I get frustrated thinking about it honestly. But this thing that Martin Rapaport is working on sounds pretty interesting. I''ll have to check out "The Diamond Road".

It''s astonishing how far even a small amount of money - small to you and I - will go in these countries.

Totally agree here. I was amazed to see some of the numbers I did. I do know "The Starfish Flinger".

As for donations...I''m totally with you there.

 

[minicat]

Hello everyone,

thank you everyone for posting your replys.

however, the way i am reading all of the replys makes me think that my OP question has been largely overlooked. (with the exception of Elmorton and John, but i feel neither actually addressed the question directly).

Elmorton, i agree with you. i dont feel guilty about gazing at gems in museums that have a blood thirsty history. infact, to me, the more war the better (am i twisted?). it adds to the ''weight'' and ''value'' of the stone, it makes me wonder ''if only the gem could talk!!!'' but here lies the problem. i would feel emotions at the opposite end of the spectrum to the museum piece if i were to discover people were murdered and mutilated for my FIs ering. WHY? (but worse....if i then think that my moms ering is highly likley to be a conflict stone, does it bother me? not really, not enough to say i think you should throw it in the bin!!! to me, its mearly a ''colourful past''...i think my dad, like others of his time, would have have been buying in the dark)

as John says "At what point does an embattled diamond become a “part of history?” When a historic figure was involved? When the battle happened centuries ago? It’s kind of like the question “when is someone important enough that he was assassinated rather than murdered?”

So from my own experience i can already see how a stones ''unethical past'' and the ''shame'' that it brings diminishes not only with time but also with the precieved ''right of ownership''. for example, our museum pieces....they belong to us the people. they are part of our history. and that ''blood'' is just they way it is...nothing is hidden. which is akin to my mothers diamond; it is part of my history. and i dont think the man who sold it to my father ever said it WASNT a conflict stone!!!

but what of my FIs stone? if i found out in 40 years that my stone was confirmed 100% as a conflict stone (hypothetically of course). well, i can say for sure i would be angry i was lied to. that would be the same if i bought the stone 40 mins ago or 40 yrs ago. but time does matter. if i knew of its source before the purchase, id say no. just after the pruchase, id demand a refund and probably report it to auth. but 40yrs later? (or indeed, how long would it have to be before i would question my predicted emotions?) the we are talking about a stone with more than a little sentimental value...or history even? im not going to throw it away am i? or even treasure it differently. because it is mine... GREED.

which is essentually what i believe is the difference... we make moral exceptions to fit with our gains or pleasures. as many have pointed out here, greed is not exclusive to africa, or even other people. when the gem doesnt really mean anything to us, then we are quick to point out what is moral and right. but when it does mean something to us, then exceptions are often made.

so is it our own greed, or time elapsed, or magnitude of the atrocities, or who owns/ed the gem regardless of the gems clean or bloody history? or what? because no doubt there is a ''formula'' to what makes a stone with a ''bloody history'' into a stone with a ''colourful past?''

ie. when is a conflict stone ok and WHY?

of course it has been pointed out that the actual gems are not inherently ''evil''....are we to shun hard earned cash that was once looted in a robbery? of course not. so are diamonds any different? after all, not everyone in the chain is ''evil'', and funds are funds. they do people good, regardless. (hypothetically, if there is no current reason to exploit ones people, then they have no purpose and therefore no value. none. hence, these people have no hope. to be brutally ignorant and blunt, isnt this better than death IF that were the bottom line or choice?)

these are my thoughts AROUND the subject and, to get the thread back on track id like to introduce them. hopefully there will still be some intrest in the subject.

minicat

 

[purrfectpear]

It's safe to assume that the great majority of Old Mine, Old Euro, and Old cushion cuts had some "conflict" (as in mined under miserable conditions) involved. I think if there were modern day cutters who cut in the old styles and they were readily available (and priced as reasonably) many of us who prefer the old style would happily purchase new stones.

Right now you can get a newly cut old style stone if you make the right enquiries and are willing to wait, but I think there are still a substantial number of PS'rs who are buying stones cut prior to 1950. Ergo, we've accepted the history.

Other than the awful conditions that miners labored under, I think really old stones have less "conflict" than stones from the 1990's. For those stones not only did miners suffer, but the profits went to support political b.s.

 

[partgypsy]

My answer to the original question is, does it change behavior? Labelling something a conflict diamond can reduce
demand for it. It puts pressure on the countries and the major buyers not to buy it. The hope is that your dollars will not go to terrorist groups and such. If something is an antique diamond even though it was associated with past bloody acts, well, your purchase on the secondary market doesn''t really affect the orignal drivers to that action and who knows if the country and armies involved are even around.

There are shades to this however. I would not be for a person wearing an antique leopard coat even if the coat was made before leopards became endangered, because for 1 perhaps current poachers may try to palm off currently slaughtered leopards for antique ones, and bottom line it still encourages creates, maintains demand for those items.

I myself am reasonably satisfied with the kimberly process, that I would object to diamonds for the second reason. I do wish that gemstones were sold with more information about their origin so that being non conflict gemstones could be a selling point and be used in the decision making purchase process.

 

[partgypsy]

I mean not object!

 

[John P]

Date: 7/15/2008 8:45:08 PM
Author: Macie

John

Thank you for posting the info about the recent boycott of Burmese rubies and about the labs. I have been keeping up more with the political events there than what is going on with the gem trade in that region.

Update: Congress Passes Burma Act

http://www.jckonline.com/article/CA6581300.html?nid=2054&source=title&rid=1997254392

>

 

[elmo]

Date: 7/28/2008 2:11:09 PM
Author: John Pollard
http://www.jckonline.com/article/CA6581300.html?nid=2054&source=title&rid=1997254392

Also interesting to see:

As a gemological note, nowhere in the bill does it mention Burmese sapphire, peridot, spinel, or any other gem materials besides jadeite and ruby. So while these could be added in the regulatory process, without industry input, it is questionable that these gems will be included in the Block Burmese JADE Act.

What you want to bet that we start seeing more red-red ruby coming out of Vietnam and Africa now.