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Are 'Educational' videos in the GIA Diamond Dock too biased?

queradas

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
50
For many here the "Gold Standard" for buying Fancy Shapes over the internet in the absence of in person viewing seems to be comparison videos shot in the GIA diamond dock.

These videos are often considered mostly "Educational" and not "Marketing" because there is no commentary and the viewer can form their own conclusions.

Based on 2006 discussions by Garry Holloway, Serg, Rhino and others it is unclear to me if the 'bias' of the dock unfairly promotes some diamonds over others. Particularly if low angle light is diminished or relatively excluded is it still a valid comparison tool?

I'd be interested to know what lower angular ranges are effectively blocked or diminished by the dock?, What are the obscuration ranges? Given both does the dock still represent a fair environment for comparison or should it be considered to be more of a marketing tool with a systematic bias towards round brilliant type diamonds that are more efficient at returning high angle light.

Trade and consumers alike I am interested in your thoughts.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,633
Re: Are 'Educational' videos in the GIA Diamond Dock too bia

Light return is already confirmed by ASET and Idealscope images and sometimes AGS Ideal cut for light return. The spotlighting part of the videos is interesting but certainly not necessary for those of us who don't spend a lot of time in casinos or night clubs. We all know that some of the lighting in the diamond dock is not our own everyday lighting. There is nothing that is deceptive about that. The biggest benefit for me of the videos is to get a good look at the facet patterns and to compare sizes and shapes of stones. After you have that to narrow things down, you really have to order and see the stone in person to get the real life viewing aspect. Both are useful and important in choosing a fine diamond, in my opinion.

Diamond videos can be seen as both educational and marketing. I see nothing wrong with that. For example, I chose an asscher from a video. I cannot for the life of me see how anyone in their right mind would fail to see the great benefit of this. Do they think one still picture is superior to having still pictures and videos??? I ended up with a far better stone that I would have otherwise, and anyone who has really looked would know how hard it is to find step cuts. I actually have had videos done of other stones as well, and I consider they allowed me to make outstanding choices each time. The technicalities of the DD are far beyond me, but after doing this several times, I can tell you that the videos are absolutely of great benefit to the consumer and the stones were outstanding in person, as well. If you order the stone and don't like it in real life, you have 30 days to return. I don't see the problem.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,189
Re: Are 'Educational' videos in the GIA Diamond Dock too bia

HI Queradas,
Are you a trade member? Or a former PS member?
You're making a lot of statements that make you sound like either one.....it's important given that trade members need to identify themselves, and former members may be hiding baggage purposefully. There's one banned member who won't seem to give up.....

About videos in general: Many promotional videos are accompanied by commentary. IN many cases, the commentary leads the viewer to a conclusion. The manner in which the video is shot can support conclusions that might be different if different methods were used.
We have published over 1500 diamond videos. I do speak in a few, but most are simply the stone, identified by color clarity weight, etc- leaving the viewer to form their own conclusion. And they are definitely promotional, as they mention our name and phone number.
IN my opinion a purely educational video would not lead the viewer to any particular seller

Diamond Dock- basically it's a horrible way to look at any diamond if you're looking through the table. A diamond MUST be picked up and examined in a tweezer to ascertain clarity- as well as crucial aspects of cut quality and light performance.

Of course by photographing in a tweezer other aspects won't be accurate to how the stone will look set. Either way is a compromise. Given that I could never grade, or properly examine a diamond in the dock, it seems like a poor choice for videos- as opposed to tweezers which is how I would examine them.
Having said all this, the only accurate manner of representing how a diamond will look once it's set is to actually set it. My statements are based on examining and then setting many thousands of diamonds. Sometimes they surprise you.

Both methods have merit, and I could see both methods being used in a purely educational video. If it was a purely educational video neither on it's own is best.
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,501
Re: Are 'Educational' videos in the GIA Diamond Dock too bia

diamondseeker2006|1452629063|3974904 said:
Light return is already confirmed by ASET and Idealscope images and sometimes AGS Ideal cut for light return. The spotlighting part of the videos is interesting but certainly not necessary for those of us who don't spend a lot of time in casinos or night clubs. We all know that some of the lighting in the diamond dock is not our own everyday lighting. There is nothing that is deceptive about that. The biggest benefit for me of the videos is to get a good look at the facet patterns and to compare sizes and shapes of stones. After you have that to narrow things down, you really have to order and see the stone in person to get the real life viewing aspect. Both are useful and important in choosing a fine diamond, in my opinion.

Diamond videos can be seen as both educational and marketing. I see nothing wrong with that. For example, I chose an asscher from a video. I cannot for the life of me see how anyone in their right mind would fail to see the great benefit of this. Do they think one still picture is superior to having still pictures and videos??? I ended up with a far better stone that I would have otherwise, and anyone who has really looked would know how hard it is to find step cuts. I actually have had videos done of other stones as well, and I consider they allowed me to make outstanding choices each time. The technicalities of the DD are far beyond me, but after doing this several times, I can tell you that the videos are absolutely of great benefit to the consumer and the stones were outstanding in person, as well. If you order the stone and don't like it in real life, you have 30 days to return. I don't see the problem.
Do you have any instructions, process flow, experience to select high performance fancy cuts( or at least fancy cuts with great Brilliancy)
on basis of ASET, Idealscope images only?
 

queradas

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
50
Re: Are 'Educational' videos in the GIA Diamond Dock too bia

Serg|1452667787|3975280 said:
diamondseeker2006|1452629063|3974904 said:
Light return is already confirmed by ASET and Idealscope images and sometimes AGS Ideal cut for light return. The spotlighting part of the videos is interesting but certainly not necessary for those of us who don't spend a lot of time in casinos or night clubs. We all know that some of the lighting in the diamond dock is not our own everyday lighting. There is nothing that is deceptive about that. The biggest benefit for me of the videos is to get a good look at the facet patterns and to compare sizes and shapes of stones. After you have that to narrow things down, you really have to order and see the stone in person to get the real life viewing aspect. Both are useful and important in choosing a fine diamond, in my opinion.

Diamond videos can be seen as both educational and marketing. I see nothing wrong with that. For example, I chose an asscher from a video. I cannot for the life of me see how anyone in their right mind would fail to see the great benefit of this. Do they think one still picture is superior to having still pictures and videos??? I ended up with a far better stone that I would have otherwise, and anyone who has really looked would know how hard it is to find step cuts. I actually have had videos done of other stones as well, and I consider they allowed me to make outstanding choices each time. The technicalities of the DD are far beyond me, but after doing this several times, I can tell you that the videos are absolutely of great benefit to the consumer and the stones were outstanding in person, as well. If you order the stone and don't like it in real life, you have 30 days to return. I don't see the problem.
Do you have any instructions, process flow, experience to select high performance fancy cuts( or at least fancy cuts with great Brilliancy)
on basis of ASET, Idealscope images only?
This thread is about videos, and those shot in the Diamond Dock not about reflectors. In all the discussions you had with Garry and Rhino and others back in 2006 https://www.pricescope.com/communit...e-appearance.38583/page-2#post-541084#p541084. Can you please tell me

1) Was it actually validated that the DD simulated 46 degrees of obscuration? (Equivalent to a viewer with 150mm head only 7.5 inches away from a diamond casting a shadow)

2) Which part of the angular range would you say was eliminated or effectiely reduced in the DD?
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,501
Re: Are 'Educational' videos in the GIA Diamond Dock too bia

queradas|1452781593|3975907 said:
Serg|1452667787|3975280 said:
diamondseeker2006|1452629063|3974904 said:
Light return is already confirmed by ASET and Idealscope images and sometimes AGS Ideal cut for light return. The spotlighting part of the videos is interesting but certainly not necessary for those of us who don't spend a lot of time in casinos or night clubs. We all know that some of the lighting in the diamond dock is not our own everyday lighting. There is nothing that is deceptive about that. The biggest benefit for me of the videos is to get a good look at the facet patterns and to compare sizes and shapes of stones. After you have that to narrow things down, you really have to order and see the stone in person to get the real life viewing aspect. Both are useful and important in choosing a fine diamond, in my opinion.

Diamond videos can be seen as both educational and marketing. I see nothing wrong with that. For example, I chose an asscher from a video. I cannot for the life of me see how anyone in their right mind would fail to see the great benefit of this. Do they think one still picture is superior to having still pictures and videos??? I ended up with a far better stone that I would have otherwise, and anyone who has really looked would know how hard it is to find step cuts. I actually have had videos done of other stones as well, and I consider they allowed me to make outstanding choices each time. The technicalities of the DD are far beyond me, but after doing this several times, I can tell you that the videos are absolutely of great benefit to the consumer and the stones were outstanding in person, as well. If you order the stone and don't like it in real life, you have 30 days to return. I don't see the problem.
Do you have any instructions, process flow, experience to select high performance fancy cuts( or at least fancy cuts with great Brilliancy)
on basis of ASET, Idealscope images only?
This thread is about videos, and those shot in the Diamond Dock not about reflectors. In all the discussions you had with Garry and Rhino and others back in 2006 https://www.pricescope.com/communit...e-appearance.38583/page-2#post-541084#p541084. Can you please tell me

1) Was it actually validated that the DD simulated 46 degrees of obscuration? (Equivalent to a viewer with 150mm head only 7.5 inches away from a diamond casting a shadow)

2) Which part of the angular range would you say was eliminated or effectiely reduced in the DD?
Sorry, You have technically wrong questions.
1) DD does not simulated any obscuration, it is simulate light source. DD does not change observer obscuration in horizontal direction at least .
btw. how did you receive 7.5inches observer distance? it looks unrealistic
2) it was discussion about leakage. DD has too much light from pavilion side and not enough light from crown-table direction/ So DD does not model real consumer light environments. ( it has not any connection with obscuration)
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,177
Re: Are 'Educational' videos in the GIA Diamond Dock too bia

I am a consumer and knows not much about diamond optics. From my view, the word "biased" is not approprite. Just like any test method, I assume DD has its limitations. The most important part is that it does not mimick how diamonds are viewed in real life. I take this into consideration when i watch these videos. What I appreciate about GOGs videos is Rhino shows diamonds under natual light condition on a mock setting (i dont know what its called. Those metal sticks with prongs). Some vendors only show diamonds on the dock. I find this insufficient and incomplete.
 

queradas

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
50
Re: Are 'Educational' videos in the GIA Diamond Dock too bia

Serg|1452790097|3975953 said:
Sorry, You have technically wrong questions.


1) DD does not simulated any obscuration, it is simulate light source. DD does not change observer obscuration in horizontal direction at least .
I have not seen pictures of the light source or the top of the DD where the sources are please enlighten me. What is being referred to when Garry says the following:

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...ock-simple-summary.42538/#post-603657#p603657

"Actually Sergey they explain in the Foundation article that they use 23 degrees each side (46 degrees in total) obscured by dak area in a white dome."

image008.jpg


btw. how did you receive 7.5inches observer distance? it looks unrealistic
If a 150mm head is is 7.5 inches(190.5mm) away from a diamond it should obstruct 46 degrees (23 on each side) of the hemisphere about the diamond. (you can check this yourself).

I didn't say that was how diamonds should be viewed, that was GIA in their cut study and supposedly what the DiamondDock lighting was supposed to be designed to simulate.

Personally I haven't seen a picture of the tubes and the upper part of the inside of the dock, does it?

2) it was discussion about leakage. DD has too much light from pavilion side and not enough light from crown-table direction/ So DD does not model real consumer light environments. ( it has not any connection with obscuration)
Are you referring to if you tilt the tray 45 degerees(as instructed) the high angle lights in the box are now illuminating the girdle and pavilion too much relative to crown lighting? (Is that still the case even though the pavilion and girdle are mostly hidden by the hole in the tray?)

My question is more inline with my own observations of videos shot in the DD, where diamonds that have significant area of their crown drawing light from lower angles (45 - 75) have much less relative brightness versus a Tolk Round as compared to if the two were compared outside of the dock in more common and natural lighting.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,633
Re: Are 'Educational' videos in the GIA Diamond Dock too bia

Serg|1452667787|3975280 said:
diamondseeker2006|1452629063|3974904 said:
Light return is already confirmed by ASET and Idealscope images and sometimes AGS Ideal cut for light return. The spotlighting part of the videos is interesting but certainly not necessary for those of us who don't spend a lot of time in casinos or night clubs. We all know that some of the lighting in the diamond dock is not our own everyday lighting. There is nothing that is deceptive about that. The biggest benefit for me of the videos is to get a good look at the facet patterns and to compare sizes and shapes of stones. After you have that to narrow things down, you really have to order and see the stone in person to get the real life viewing aspect. Both are useful and important in choosing a fine diamond, in my opinion.

Diamond videos can be seen as both educational and marketing. I see nothing wrong with that. For example, I chose an asscher from a video. I cannot for the life of me see how anyone in their right mind would fail to see the great benefit of this. Do they think one still picture is superior to having still pictures and videos??? I ended up with a far better stone that I would have otherwise, and anyone who has really looked would know how hard it is to find step cuts. I actually have had videos done of other stones as well, and I consider they allowed me to make outstanding choices each time. The technicalities of the DD are far beyond me, but after doing this several times, I can tell you that the videos are absolutely of great benefit to the consumer and the stones were outstanding in person, as well. If you order the stone and don't like it in real life, you have 30 days to return. I don't see the problem.
Do you have any instructions, process flow, experience to select high performance fancy cuts( or at least fancy cuts with great Brilliancy)
on basis of ASET, Idealscope images only?
As I have said multiple times on the forum, I use ASET, videos, photographs, AGS and GIA reports, and vendor opinions to narrow down the stones I am interested in. Then I send for them so I can look at them in my hands with my own eyes. I do not depend on any one factor to choose a diamond. When you live far away from the diamond vendors, you have to use all the information you can access to choose between stones you cannot see. The videos are one very helpful piece of information. Stones that already have been graded to have ideal light return helps to narrow things down. This is all a consumer at a distance can do...buy from vendors who specialize in well cut stones and/or who also provide as much information for the consumer to be able to narrow down the stones to send for to look at.
 

queradas

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
50
Re: Are 'Educational' videos in the GIA Diamond Dock too bia

queradas|1452814453|3976105 said:
Serg|1452790097|3975953 said:
Sorry, You have technically wrong questions.


1) DD does not simulated any obscuration, it is simulate light source. DD does not change observer obscuration in horizontal direction at least .
I have not seen pictures of the light source or the top of the DD where the sources are please enlighten me. What is being referred to when Garry says the following:

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...ock-simple-summary.42538/#post-603657#p603657

"Actually Sergey they explain in the Foundation article that they use 23 degrees each side (46 degrees in total) obscured by dak area in a white dome."

image008.jpg


btw. how did you receive 7.5inches observer distance? it looks unrealistic
If a 150mm head is is 7.5 inches(190.5mm) away from a diamond it should obstruct 46 degrees (23 on each side) of the hemisphere about the diamond. (you can check this yourself).

I didn't say that was how diamonds should be viewed, that was GIA in their cut study and supposedly what the DiamondDock lighting was supposed to be designed to simulate.

Personally I haven't seen a picture of the tubes and the upper part of the inside of the dock, does it?

2) it was discussion about leakage. DD has too much light from pavilion side and not enough light from crown-table direction/ So DD does not model real consumer light environments. ( it has not any connection with obscuration)
Are you referring to if you tilt the tray 45 degerees(as instructed) the high angle lights in the box are now illuminating the girdle and pavilion too much relative to crown lighting? (Is that still the case even though the pavilion and girdle are mostly hidden by the hole in the tray?)

My question is more inline with my own observations of videos shot in the DD, where diamonds that have significant area of their crown drawing light from lower angles (45 - 75) have much less relative brightness versus a Tolk Round as compared to if the two were compared outside of the dock in more common and natural lighting.
That should have been 0 - 45 as the lower angles not higher angle light.
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,501
Re: Are 'Educational' videos in the GIA Diamond Dock too bia

queradas|1452814453|3976105 said:
Serg|1452790097|3975953 said:
Sorry, You have technically wrong questions.


1) DD does not simulated any obscuration, it is simulate light source. DD does not change observer obscuration in horizontal direction at least .
I have not seen pictures of the light source or the top of the DD where the sources are please enlighten me. What is being referred to when Garry says the following:

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...ock-simple-summary.42538/#post-603657#p603657

"Actually Sergey they explain in the Foundation article that they use 23 degrees each side (46 degrees in total) obscured by dak area in a white dome."

image008.jpg


btw. how did you receive 7.5inches observer distance? it looks unrealistic
If a 150mm head is is 7.5 inches(190.5mm) away from a diamond it should obstruct 46 degrees (23 on each side) of the hemisphere about the diamond. (you can check this yourself).

I didn't say that was how diamonds should be viewed, that was GIA in their cut study and supposedly what the DiamondDock lighting was supposed to be designed to simulate.

Personally I haven't seen a picture of the tubes and the upper part of the inside of the dock, does it?

2) it was discussion about leakage. DD has too much light from pavilion side and not enough light from crown-table direction/ So DD does not model real consumer light environments. ( it has not any connection with obscuration)
Are you referring to if you tilt the tray 45 degerees(as instructed) the high angle lights in the box are now illuminating the girdle and pavilion too much relative to crown lighting? (Is that still the case even though the pavilion and girdle are mostly hidden by the hole in the tray?)

My question is more inline with my own observations of videos shot in the DD, where diamonds that have significant area of their crown drawing light from lower angles (45 - 75) have much less relative brightness versus a Tolk Round as compared to if the two were compared outside of the dock in more common and natural lighting.
1) DD( DiamondDock) light has neither connection with Doom light nor with GIA raytracing cut study. I advice you to check that DD is before you continue the discussion.
2) the observer distance is much more bigger than 190mm on all Garry photos had been republished here by You. Typical consumer distance is between 300-500mm.
 
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