appraisals and insurance

[diannec18]

Pretty sure I've decided on a $1500 .69 ct stone from JA. I was planning on getting it appraised, just to make sure I'm really getting what I've paid for, but now I'm having second thoughts. The appraisal is relatively inexpensive, bit it still costs $$. So
1. Do I even need to worry about JA misrepresentating a stone or sending the wrong one?
2. Will the appraisal be of any use for insurance if I get it set and want to insure the whole ring?
3 and to that end, should I insure just the stone initially anyway, in case something were to happen while it's getting set ? (Not using JA for the seeing BC they don't work with palladium)

 

[heididdl]

JA should send an appraisal with the finished ring. If you are buying a certified stone GIA you should be able to tell right away. The appraisal is simply for insurance replacement...

 

[drk14]

1. Do I even need to worry about JA misrepresentating a stone or sending the wrong one?

You shouldn't have to worry about shenanigans with JA or other reputable vendors, but even the best can make mistakes I suppose. If you have access to a loupe (or similar magnifying glass), you should be able to compare the location of the diamond's inclusions to those that can be seen on the certificate's inclusion map as well as on the JA hi-def (40X) image. That's a pretty safe way to make sure you received the right stone, if you're worried about this.

2. Will the appraisal be of any use for insurance if I get it set and want to insure the whole ring?

Yes, appraising the loose diamond is definitely worthwhile. First, it is much easier for the appraiser to document the properties and quality of the diamond if it is loose than if it has been mounted in a setting, and this information can help you get an equivalent replacement diamond should anything happen to it in the future (e.g., damage during setting, damage while wearing the finished ring, diamond falling out of the setting and lost, or entire ring lost). Second, you can ask your appraiser if they will offer discounted pricing if you hire them to appraise both the loose diamond and the finished ring -- I know that David Atlas does the second appraisal for free (i.e., appraisal of the ring is included in the cost of appraisal of the loose diamond), but others may at least offer some kind of package deal, so that you're at least not paying full price for two separate appraisals. Third, if you're concerned about non-catastrophic damage to the diamond during setting (e.g., minor damage to, say, the girdle, that may not be obvious to the naked eye), it would be very difficult to prove this unless you have an appraisal of the loose diamond before setting it.

3 and to that end, should I insure just the stone initially anyway, in case something were to happen while it's getting set ? (Not using JA for the seeing BC they don't work with palladium)

This is a good idea, and it will really not cost you extra. Your insurance coverage will start sooner, and when you supply the additional documentation to get coverage for the complete ring, they will ask you to pay the difference in the premium due as a result of the increased insurance coverage.

Since you're concerned about the cost of appraisal, you could consider getting insurance based on the sales receipts only. However, the disadvantage is that if you have a loss, JM would be able to settle your claim by replacing your diamond with a diamond that meets the description on the sales receipt. So if your receipt from JA says "round 0.69 ct J SI1" and nothing else, then the diamond could be replaced by any "round 0.69 ct J SI1" diamond, with completely different proportions and angles. If you've selected a center diamond with a nice HCA score, for example, this would not be documented int he sales receipt. In contrast, an appraisal of the loose diamond can provide such additional detail, to ensure that you are able to replace the diamond with something that you consider to be truly equivalent. As a corollary, do communicate with your appraiser to make sure that the appraisal report does document those features of the diamond (and the ring) that you consider to be important.

Hope this helps you make a decision.

 

[diannec18]

1. Do I even need to worry about JA misrepresentating a stone or sending the wrong one?

You shouldn't have to worry about shenanigans with JA or other reputable vendors, but even the best can make mistakes I suppose. If you have access to a loupe (or similar magnifying glass), you should be able to compare the location of the diamond's inclusions to those that can be seen on the certificate's inclusion map as well as on the JA hi-def (40X) image. That's a pretty safe way to make sure you received the right stone, if you're worried about this.

2. Will the appraisal be of any use for insurance if I get it set and want to insure the whole ring?

Yes, appraising the loose diamond is definitely worthwhile. First, it is much easier for the appraiser to document the properties and quality of the diamond if it is loose than if it has been mounted in a setting, and this information can help you get an equivalent replacement diamond should anything happen to it in the future (e.g., damage during setting, damage while wearing the finished ring, diamond falling out of the setting and lost, or entire ring lost). Second, you can ask your appraiser if they will offer discounted pricing if you hire them to appraise both the loose diamond and the finished ring -- I know that David Atlas does the second appraisal for free (i.e., appraisal of the ring is included in the cost of appraisal of the loose diamond), but others may at least offer some kind of package deal, so that you're at least not paying full price for two separate appraisals. Third, if you're concerned about non-catastrophic damage to the diamond during setting (e.g., minor damage to, say, the girdle, that may not be obvious to the naked eye), it would be very difficult to prove this unless you have an appraisal of the loose diamond before setting it.

3 and to that end, should I insure just the stone initially anyway, in case something were to happen while it's getting set ? (Not using JA for the seeing BC they don't work with palladium)

This is a good idea, and it will really not cost you extra. Your insurance coverage will start sooner, and when you supply the additional documentation to get coverage for the complete ring, they will ask you to pay the difference in the premium due as a result of the increased insurance coverage.

Since you're concerned about the cost of appraisal, you could consider getting insurance based on the sales receipts only. However, the disadvantage is that if you have a loss, JM would be able to settle your claim by replacing your diamond with a diamond that meets the description on the sales receipt. So if your receipt from JA says "round 0.69 ct J SI1" and nothing else, then the diamond could be replaced by any "round 0.69 ct J SI1" diamond, with completely different proportions and angles. If you've selected a center diamond with a nice HCA score, for example, this would not be documented int he sales receipt. In contrast, an appraisal of the loose diamond can provide such additional detail, to ensure that you are able to replace the diamond with something that you consider to be truly equivalent. As a corollary, do communicate with your appraiser to make sure that the appraisal report does document those features of the diamond (and the ring) that you consider to be important.

Hope this helps you make a decision.

It definitely does, that's exactly the info I was looking for. You sold me on the appraisal, and your tips are really helpful. Thanks!

Side note, I understand it , gia doesn't typically do inclusion mapping in stones under a carat, but that's even more reason to get it checked out.

 

[denverappraiser]

The two appraisals serve different purposes. The first is generally part of the shopping process. People want to know if they got what they thought they got, paid an appropriate price for it, and if what the dealer told them about it is correct and that no important information was omitted or misrepresented. Normally your ability to return the stone and get another one ends when you set it and your ability to pick a different mounting almost certainly will.

Appraising it loose provides a benchmark before the setting begins. This benchmark thing isn't such a big topic if all of the players are the same but when problems come up there's regularly a finger pointing session between the diamond seller, the mounting seller and the setter. The diamond is defective. No, the mounting is defective. No, the setter was a butcher. Somehow that all comes together to make it your problem, not theirs. A well documented appraisal on the front end resolves this and, actually, a lot of the big time setters REQUIRE it in advance because it protects their interests too. They don't want problems any more than you do.

The second serves two purposes. First is a quality control step. Beyond the blame issue above, it identifies problems early. *IF* there's a defect of some sort, it's good to address it quickly. The 4th player is you and after a bit of time has elapsed there's an issue of 'wear and tear' and/or customer abuse. I have YET to see a dealer supplied appraisal report that mentions defects in the workmanship.

The second one also serves as the purchase order for replacement. This is the one you give to your insurer. It should contain measurements, counts, photographs, details on the other materials, branding and so on. Basically, if it's important to you during the shopping process and you would like it to be considered in the replacement, it should be documented in the appraisal report.

About appraisal pricing. I don't talk about this all that often and appraisers definitely charge differently. I personally do charge for that second appointment because it's just as much work as the first but I also charge half as much as some others who 'bundle' them. That said, I'm definitely not the cheapest and in my own market I'm among the most expensive. The cheapest are rarely the best but I'll leave that for shoppers to decide where to go. It's a very competitive business. There are a lot of charlatans out there. I wouldn't hire the cheapest lawyer or the cheapest doctor either.

 

[WinkHPD]

The two appraisals serve different purposes. The first is generally part of the shopping process. People want to know if they got what they thought they got, paid an appropriate price for it, and if what the dealer told them about it is correct and that no important information was omitted or misrepresented. Normally your ability to return the stone and get another one ends when you set it and your ability to pick a different mounting almost certainly will.

Appraising it loose provides a benchmark before the setting begins. This benchmark thing isn't such a big topic if all of the players are the same but when problems come up there's regularly a finger pointing session between the diamond seller, the mounting seller and the setter. The diamond is defective. No, the mounting is defective. No, the setter was a butcher. Somehow that all comes together to make it your problem, not theirs. A well document appraisal on the front end resolves this and, actually, a lot of the big time setters REQUIRE it in advance because it protects their interests too. They don't want problems any more than you do.

The second serves two purposes. First is a quality control step. Beyond the blame issue above, it identifies problems early. *IF* there's a defect of some sort, it's good to address it quickly. The 4th player is you and after a bit of time has elapsed there's an issue of 'wear and tear' and/or customer abuse. I have YET to see a dealer supplied appraisal report that mentions defects in the workmanship.

The second one also serves as the purchase order for replacement. This is the one you give to your insurer. It should contain measurements, counts, photographs, details on the other materials, branding and so on. Basically, if it's important to you during the shopping process and you would like it to be considered in the replacement, it should be documented in the appraisal report.

About appraisal pricing. I don't talk about this all that often and appraisers definitely charge differently. I personally do charge for that second appointment because it's just as much work as the first but I also charge half as much as some others who 'bundle' them. That said, I'm definitely not the cheapest and in my own market I'm among the most expensive. The cheapest are rarely the best but I'll leave that for shoppers to decide where to go. It's a very competitive business. There are a lot of charlatans out there. I wouldn't hire the cheapest lawyer or the cheapest doctor either.

LOL! Well said, and there may be a reason. When I get a piece back from the setter it goes under the loupe for a quick check. Then to photography. Almost always, defects are found during these two steps, but not always. In the last fifteen or twenty years I remember two times that while the ring was under the microscope for the appraisal that I found defects. One was quickly fixed, the other required a remake as there were some kind of micro fractures in the gallery work. They were not visible to me in the loupe until after I found them in the scope, then I could see some "tiny hairs that needed to be wiped off" in the loupe. Thus, I know for sure, that you will never see one of those vendor supplied appraisals from me that mention defects in the mounting. If I find them, I fix them or replace the mounting.

I suspect that all of the good vendors here would do the same. This does NOT negate or invalidate the desire to have an independent appraiser if it makes you more comfortable. But it may help explain why you never see an appraisal from a good vendor that lists a defect in the mounting.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

Wink. I'm certainly not picking on you, or any other particular vendor, manufacturer or setter, but I see craftsmanship defects regularly. In fact, when I send a customer back for some sort of problem, that's usually the issue.

 

[WinkHPD]

Wink. I'm certainly not picking on you, or any other particular vendor, manufacturer or setter, but I see craftsmanship defects regularly. In fact, when I send a customer back for some sort of problem, that's usually the issue.

I did not feel picked upon, truly. I know you far too well for that.

What distresses me, and is a sad statement about the jewelry industry is that you regularly see craftsmanship defects. Especially if you are appraising something that already has the vendor's appraisal.

I really wish that it required some minimum of education, both to begin and continuing, to issue a valid appraisal. I do not foresee that happening in the near future, and I will ALWAYS feel that the vendor should be allowed to issue documents for the purpose of insurance, whether or not it is called an appraisal.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

For example, this happened twice, yesterday. It's already happened today and it's not even noon yet.

Nearly every new purchase customer has a document that the seller called an appraisal and the bar for these things is fantastically low.

Seller issued documents are nearly always acceptable to the insurance companies if they meet a very low minimum standard. They must contain a description of the actual item and a signature for example. Don't laugh. A fair fraction don't. Weak appraisals with inflated values benefit the insurers. It's the consumers, not the insurers who should be complaining but they like the 'free' reports that come as part of the packing materials. If it meets the insurers requirements, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[WinkHPD]

Sigh.

And we jewelers wonder why the public does not respect us...

Wink

 

[diannec18]

The two appraisals serve different purposes. The first is generally part of the shopping process. People want to know if they got what they thought they got, paid an appropriate price for it, and if what the dealer told them about it is correct and that no important information was omitted or misrepresented. Normally your ability to return the stone and get another one ends when you set it and your ability to pick a different mounting almost certainly will.

Appraising it loose provides a benchmark before the setting begins. This benchmark thing isn't such a big topic if all of the players are the same but when problems come up there's regularly a finger pointing session between the diamond seller, the mounting seller and the setter. The diamond is defective. No, the mounting is defective. No, the setter was a butcher. Somehow that all comes together to make it your problem, not theirs. A well documented appraisal on the front end resolves this and, actually, a lot of the big time setters REQUIRE it in advance because it protects their interests too. They don't want problems any more than you do.

The second serves two purposes. First is a quality control step. Beyond the blame issue above, it identifies problems early. *IF* there's a defect of some sort, it's good to address it quickly. The 4th player is you and after a bit of time has elapsed there's an issue of 'wear and tear' and/or customer abuse. I have YET to see a dealer supplied appraisal report that mentions defects in the workmanship.

The second one also serves as the purchase order for replacement. This is the one you give to your insurer. It should contain measurements, counts, photographs, details on the other materials, branding and so on. Basically, if it's important to you during the shopping process and you would like it to be considered in the replacement, it should be documented in the appraisal report.

About appraisal pricing. I don't talk about this all that often and appraisers definitely charge differently. I personally do charge for that second appointment because it's just as much work as the first but I also charge half as much as some others who 'bundle' them. That said, I'm definitely not the cheapest and in my own market I'm among the most expensive. The cheapest are rarely the best but I'll leave that for shoppers to decide where to go. It's a very competitive business. There are a lot of charlatans out there. I wouldn't hire the cheapest lawyer or the cheapest doctor either.

The person I'm planning on going with seems pretty cheap ($55/ item), but is also the only appraiser in my area that isn't part of a jewelry store. He has good reviews online, and studied at GIA. Hopefully he's good.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Quality control is an issue that we see on a regular basis....in particular, setting of the diamond (poorly positioned prongs, thin prongs, and a multitude of other problems). Our basic "do it yourself test" involves a very thin piece of paper. If you can slip the paper under a prong and it catches, be aware that the prong will catch on nylon, fibers of clothing (such as a sweater). This is the most frequent problem that we encounter on "new" never worn rings. On the positive side, over the years, we have not seen this issue with any PS vendor. But consumers would be surprised at how the quality varies among craftsmen. An appraisal after purchase will serve you well if you want to have total peace of mind.

 

[diannec18]

My insurance agent just informed me that she can't insure the diamond until it is set. Suggestions?

 

[drk14]

My insurance agent just informed me that she can't insure the diamond until it is set. Suggestions?

Yes: Purchase a insurance from a provider that does insure the loose diamond during setting. For example, Jewelers Mutual (Perfect Cirlce Insurance). For some reason I had the impression that you were getting your insurance from JM, but evidently I was mistaken -- apologies for any confusion.

 

[diannec18]

Yes, the suggestions I was requesting was suggestions for companies that do insure loose stones. Another PS member recently posted and a horrible experience she's having with jewelers mutual. Do other people have positive experiences with them to share?