Appraisal discrepency and question

[ucla512]

Hi, I have been reading the forums for about a month and learning all I can, unfortunately even though I thought I had enough knowledge to make a good decisions, I have a big problem.

I recently bought an antique ring from a place commonly recommended here on PS. I took it to an appraiser, also recommended here on PS.

Long story short, the appraiser has doubts as to the authenticity of the antique ring and things it is actually a reproduction (I purchased it as an antique). Then the appraiser says something like "well, if you decide to return it, you might want to look stores XXX, and XXX since they carry antiques and estate jewelry" Isn''t that a big no-no to suggest another place to look for rings, or was the appraiser simply trying to be helpful? The appraiser did have some valid points when they showed me why they felt the ring wasnt an antique (relating to wear and tear), but now I dont know if I can even believe that appraisal or if I should seek a second one.

Please any advice would be great.

 

[Skippy123]

Well maybe he is trying to help you out in finding a reputable jeweler since the previous person sold it to you as an "antique" and it isn''t? I guess it depends though.

 

[strmrdr]

imho the appraiser did step a bit over the line recommending places to buy but was likely just trying to be helpful.

Did the advice on the setting make sense the way it was explained?
Not having heard what was said it is hard to judge.
You were there, do you believe the appraiser had valid points?

 

[Rockdiamond]

hi ucla512,
I have a few questions:
1) Did this appraiser say that the price you paid was fair?
2) How important is the actual date of manufacture in your own evaluation of the piece?
3) Did you love the piece when you opened the box?
4) Did the appraiser mention if it was the diamonds, and or only the lack of wear on the jewelry he felt lacked authenticity as antiques?

If it's a piece with a center diamond larger than say .50cts- that's probably the most valuable aspect to the ring.
It's also possible to refurbish jewelry- which would , to some people- be desirable- as it makes it more durable for daily use.
Things like putting on a new shank.

If you did not specifically ask the appraiser for a recommendation for another place to shop, I think the fact they recommended someone seems questionable, at best.

 

[ucla512]

Yes, I completely understood their argument as to why it was more likely a repro than real and dont have any problem with it. they said that the wear and tear was too low for the ring being ~90 years old. Now it could have just not been worn very much, but they thought the more likely scenario was that it was more recently made. They were also 3 letters whiter on the color compared to what the ring was advertised and sold as and felt that the seller wouldn''t have been able to grade it as they did unless the stone was out of the setting at some point (reasoning that the stone was set in a newer setting).

I bought it from a reputable dealer that I found through many positive reviews here on PS, so I am having a difficult time deciding which way to take this information.

Ill bring this to the attention of the seller obviously, but I just found it odd that the appraiser asked where I got it and recommended a few other places.

 

[ucla512]

Date: 5/4/2009 9:57:50 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
hi ucla512,

I have a few questions:

1) Did this appraiser say that the price you paid was fair?

2) How important is the actual date of manufacture in your own evaluation of the piece?

3) Did you love the piece when you opened the box?

4) Did the appraiser mention if it was the diamonds, and or only the lack of wear on the jewelry he felt lacked authenticity as antiques?


If it''s a piece with a center diamond larger than say .50cts- that''s probably the most valuable aspect to the ring.

It''s also possible to refurbish jewelry- which would , to some people- be desirable- as it makes it more durable for daily use.

Things like putting on a new shank.


If you did not specifically ask the appraiser for a recommendation for another place to shop, I think the fact they recommended someone seems questionable, at best.

Great questions! Here is what I know.

1. They said the price I paid was fair if it is an antique, but overpriced for reproduction

2. Id like an antique, but the importance is more about that I get what I paid for. Had I bought this ring as a repro I wouldnt be bothered at the least.

3. I loved it, and still love it. I think its the most beautiful thing ever.

4. It is not the diamond in question, just the ring, specifically the prongs and the shank

I didnt ask for any other places to shop, thats why I remember it so well, it caught me off guard.

 

[Rockdiamond]

IMO I'd heavily discount anything that person told you- actually I hope you disregard it entirely.
How can this appraiser be so sure of the exact color grade?

If we were selling a ring, I'd want to make sure the prongs were sound, and the shank solid. I'm sure others feel this way and make sure they are selling solid products- even if they need to refurbish them
On the other hand, such info should also be clearly disclosed by the seller.

The reason this sucks, ( xcuse my French) is the answer to #3- I hate to see a bogus knock at something if it's a good value, hopefully honestly represented, and you really love it- that's the thing!

BTW- I don;t know any specifics here- but the difference in value between an antique and a repro- especially a good repro- is not that great- if there's any difference at all.
Did you think it was old before this person knocked it?
Is there filigree work?

 

[ucla512]

The ring is mostly engraved, with some filigree near the stone.

 

[ucla512]

I am going over the numbers, and the setting was appraised at ~$285 "$110 for the raw platinum + about $175 to clean it up after casting"

Isnt that quite low? The ring is exquisite, and has finer details compared to $1700 similar styled antiqe looking settigns I have seen online.

 

[denverappraiser]

There is no scientific test for age of stone and most jewelry metals. When people ask me how old their diamonds is I generally say 200,000,000,000 years, give or take a few. Dating a piece is done by looking at secondary evidence like style of cutting, materials chosen, techniques used, provenance etc. A modern craftsman could use old materials and techniques if they want so the evidence trail usually goes the other way. That is to say, you look for evidence of modern manufacture to demonstrate a piece is recent rather than looking for the lack of it as some sort of ‘proof’ of an older one. Most modern craftsmen have shortcuts that they use in terms of tools, techniques or supplies that leave traces that can be recognized with careful inspection but it’s not always there. This can get further complicated by pieces that may be old but have been repaired or modified since the original manufacture adding more recent materials or techniques. It’s not a science and there's a certain amount of going with the probabilities based on whatever evidence is available. Lack of wear is certainly some evidence but there are plenty of pieces that are stored in bank vaults or jewelry boxes and that haven’t been worn for generations and similarly there are new pieces that have been worn constantly since the day they were made.

I agree with the above that it was a mistake for the appraiser to recommend an alternative source and it’s up to you to decide if this was driven by ulterior motives or if they were just trying to be helpful. It's definitely a red flag. The difference is pretty important. You were there, which was it?

If the value conclusion seems out of line to you based on what you see in the marketplace, ask your appraiser to explain the difference. Read over the 'fine print' in the appraisal report looking especially for the definition of 'value' and the description of the marketplace they are discussing.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 5/5/2009 1:06:40 PM
Author: ucla512
I am going over the numbers, and the setting was appraised at ~$285 ''$110 for the raw platinum + about $175 to clean it up after casting''

Isnt that quite low? The ring is exquisite, and has finer details compared to $1700 similar styled antiqe looking settigns I have seen online.

I have nothing but respect for Neil- his restraint is admirable.
When I see diamond dealers who are obviously misrepresenting- or otherwise doing something underhanded, I get really peeved.

From where I sit this "appraiser" has shown us the very worst possibilities that exist when paying someone for an opinion.

Ask this joker to come up with 100 platinum engraved rings for $285. How about even one??


You walked into this guy''s place in love with a ring, and he''s done everything possible to unseat your feelings.
Again- I wasn''t there- but the way it sounds he did it for no other reason than to drum up business for a seller he''s very likely getting a kickback from.

Many times people are advised to get a second opinion here on PS- of course it sounds like a great idea.
BUT- if the person who gives that opinion lacks integrity, or the proper experience, it can create a lot of problems that were not there to begin with.


How did you find this appraiser?

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/5/2009 1:06:40 PM
Author: ucla512''$110 for the raw platinum + about $175 to clean it up after casting''

I just noticed that you''ve got this comment in quotes. Is this something that you copied from your appraisal report or that you were told during your session?


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[oldminer]

Appraisers are not perfect and sometimes do dumb or improper things.
Retailers are not perfect and do the same as the above appraisers.

Appraisers see a small portion of what has been sold to consumers. Inside that fraction of the business, there are many totally happy consumers and a few who may have problems uncovered by a proper appraisal. There are also the problems which the appraisal or or the apprasier create for no good reason.

Retailers sell most of their merchandise to consumers who never seek any second opinions. Consider the large majority of problems in those sales which have always gone undetected. I think because so many things have the potential to be gotten away with, that we see retailers resentful of the discovery of even true problems from time to time. On top of this rather small number of real problems comes another group of created problems caused by stupidity, thoughtless words, or bias.

This is the way things are and there is not going to be anything soon to change it. Now and then an appraiser does a good thing for the consumer. In isolated instances appraisers do something wrong. Just consider how much wrong is never uncovered because of blind faith in the seller. The vast majority of problems are hidden there. The only solution is more second opinions from trained appraisers. I know this is not welcomed by retailers, but without someone policing transactions it is so very tempting to push the envelope.

 

[ucla512]

Date: 5/5/2009 1:33:12 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 5/5/2009 1:06:40 PM
Author: ucla512
I am going over the numbers, and the setting was appraised at ~$285 ''$110 for the raw platinum + about $175 to clean it up after casting''

Isnt that quite low? The ring is exquisite, and has finer details compared to $1700 similar styled antiqe looking settigns I have seen online.

I have nothing but respect for Neil- his restraint is admirable.
When I see diamond dealers who are obviously misrepresenting- or otherwise doing something underhanded, I get really peeved.

From where I sit this ''appraiser'' has shown us the very worst possibilities that exist when paying someone for an opinion.

Ask this joker to come up with 100 platinum engraved rings for $285. How about even one??


You walked into this guy''s place in love with a ring, and he''s done everything possible to unseat your feelings.
Again- I wasn''t there- but the way it sounds he did it for no other reason than to drum up business for a seller he''s very likely getting a kickback from.

Many times people are advised to get a second opinion here on PS- of course it sounds like a great idea.
BUT- if the person who gives that opinion lacks integrity, or the proper experience, it can create a lot of problems that were not there to begin with.


How did you find this appraiser?

I found the appraiser through the "indepenedant appraiser" list here on PS. They have recieved many good reviews from users which makes it difficult for me to know how take the information.

 

[ucla512]

Date: 5/5/2009 1:49:12 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 5/5/2009 1:06:40 PM
Author: ucla512''$110 for the raw platinum + about $175 to clean it up after casting''

I just noticed that you''ve got this comment in quotes. Is this something that you copied from your appraisal report or that you were told during your session?


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

That is roughly what I was told during the appraisal.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/5/2009 2:05:35 PM
Author: ucla512
That is roughly what I was told during the appraisal.

Did the appraiser provide you with a written report?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 5/5/2009 1:57:32 PM
Author: oldminer
Appraisers are not perfect and sometimes do dumb or improper things.
Retailers are not perfect and do the same as the above appraisers.

Appraisers see a small portion of what has been sold to consumers. Inside that fraction of the business, there are many totally happy consumers and a few who may have problems uncovered by a proper appraisal. There are also the problems which the appraisal or or the apprasier create for no good reason.

Retailers sell most of their merchandise to consumers who never seek any second opinions. Consider the large majority of problems in those sales which have always gone undetected. I think because so many things have the potential to be gotten away with, that we see retailers resentful of the discovery of even true problems from time to time. On top of this rather small number of real problems comes another group of created problems caused by stupidity, thoughtless words, or bias.

This is the way things are and there is not going to be anything soon to change it. Now and then an appraiser does a good thing for the consumer. In isolated instances appraisers do something wrong. Just consider how much wrong is never uncovered because of blind faith in the seller. The vast majority of problems are hidden there. The only solution is more second opinions from trained appraisers. I know this is not welcomed by retailers, but without someone policing transactions it is so very tempting to push the envelope.

I don''t disagree as a retailer- but as a diamond professional Dave.
Getting more second opinions is cumbersome- and confusing to consumers.
To me, the real solution would be for the bad retailers to clean up their act- or for consumers to exercise more due diligence.
There are people who see an ad that seems very aggressive, then try to buy something for less than it''s worth. They get it , then expect an appraiser to "fix it"..... which isn''t going to happen.

The best protection would be for those consumers to be more careful in selecting their dealers.
If anything, the internet has actually helped this situation a bit.
Years ago, a consumer walked into a retailer, who could lie to them with impunity- if that was their goal.
Over the past 7 years since I''ve been active on forums, we''ve "outed" literally hundreds of sellers using bad practices. Now these deceptive sales pitches are in a form where they are public.
Appraisers are far less visible in their practices- even with the internet.

 

[ucla512]

Not yet,

I just went in yesterday and it will take a few days for it to be completed.

 

[oldminer]

What mechanism is in place for the majority of consumers to judge the quality of the retailer they are about to trust? Every successful retailer has hundreds of happy and satisfied customers. Even the biggest scoundrels in the diamond and jewelry business have hundred, thousands of very happy customers. The only way to know if you have done well in any single instance is to have someone else, a second opinion, evaluate the deal. If the deal is not worth a second opinion, then so be it, but if the money has meaning and the value of the deal is more important than the cost of the second opinion, this is where the appraiser fits into the mix. Like I said, it is a fraction of overall sales and problems represent even a smaller fraction.

To my way of thinking, transparency and honesty in a deal works well. It may somewhat limit profits, but big profits are not the usual thing these days so I don''t see much limitation being created.


"Getting more second opinions is cumbersome- and confusing to consumers. Yes, cumbersome and confusing, but for those who need it, it adds safety. It is the consumer''s due diligence at work.
To me, the real solution would be for the bad retailers to clean up their act- or for consumers to exercise more due diligence." Caution in buying is definitely a watchword I''d often use. We find impulsive buying at the root of the majority of consumer problems. Bad retailers will never clean up their acts if they never get caught and exposed by the press. It happens often enough to make their neighbors hurt by the bad press, yet it changes few minds about how well crime has paid. Legitimate retailers are more injured by their bad competitors than the public is injured. A sad fact.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 5/5/2009 2:44:06 PM
Author: oldminer
What mechanism is in place for the majority of consumers to judge the quality of the retailer they are about to trust? The same one that''s in place to verify the quality of an appraiser- you''re looking at it! Every successful retailer has hundreds of happy and satisfied customers. Even the biggest scoundrels in the diamond and jewelry business have hundred, thousands of very happy customers. The only way to know if you have done well in any single instance is to have someone else, a second opinion, evaluate the deal. If the deal is not worth a second opinion, then so be it, but if the money has meaning and the value of the deal is more important than the cost of the second opinion, this is where the appraiser fits into the mix. Like I said, it is a fraction of overall sales and problems represent even a smaller fraction.

To my way of thinking, transparency and honesty in a deal works well. It may somewhat limit profits, but big profits are not the usual thing these days so I don''t see much limitation being created.


''Getting more second opinions is cumbersome- and confusing to consumers. Yes, cumbersome and confusing, but for those who need it, it adds safety. It is the consumer''s due diligence at work.
To me, the real solution would be for the bad retailers to clean up their act- or for consumers to exercise more due diligence.'' Caution in buying is definitely a watchword I''d often use. We find impulsive buying at the root of the majority of consumer problems. Bad retailers will never clean up their acts if they never get caught and exposed by the press. It happens often enough to make their neighbors hurt by the bad press, yet it changes few minds about how well crime has paid. Legitimate retailers are more injured by their bad competitors than the public is injured. A sad fact.

As I indicated above Dave- this forum, and others like it are a great place for consumers to ask about a seller. Or to complain about a seller.

I agree- there are some incredibly slimy sellers that have "put together" long lists of satisfied clients- sometimes by inventing them!
But in every case I''ve seen, they''ve also garnered a huge list of dissatisfied clients that''s impossible to bury- If the glowing reviews are online, doing a little detective work will uncover the bad reviews online.