Any thoughts on this RB diamond? Suggestions?

[SGOne]

Hello all! It's about that time in my life where I'm about ready to pop the question. Though I've done a fair share of research, I would love some seasoned pros opinions or suggestions

I'm looking for a diamond that's about 1.2 carats (give or take), VS1 or better, G color or better, and of course, preferably super ideal cut.
The top of my budget is around 12k (slightly flexible).

After some exhaustive searching, there's one diamond that looked the best to me and fit my criteria to the best of my knowledge (cut quality being the unknown). I know it's good, but I want to know if it's as good or would qualify for something along the lines of ACA from whiteflash. Unfortunately, it's GIA graded and not AGS - so no ASET or light performance images available. It does however, have the idealscope and hearts images which is seen below along with the GIA proportions.

The diamond is G color, VVS1 clarity.

I'd love a whiteflash ACA diamond, but unfortunately, in my budget, it seems that I would only be able to afford something in the H color, VS1-2 clarity range diamond - which is really lower than I'd like to go in both ranges.

My super amateur assessment of the diamond below is as follows:
- IS image looks good to me. No major light leakage - good symmetry.
- Hearts image looks overall good. The two bottom left hearts have a smudge or something. Not sure what that is. Seeing as it is a VVS1 diamond, I don't think it's an inclusion. Otherwise, minor cleft on the top right and bottom left hearts - otherwise good. Not sure if the minor clefts/smudges will de-qualify it from being "super ideal"
- Proportions look good, slightly higher crown angle at 35, otherwise everything looks good to me.
Scores a 1.6 on the HCA scale - ex-ex-ex-vg

Any opinions, critiques on my assessment or alternative suggestions of other diamonds more than welcome.

Thanks!

 

[c-k]

Both images look very good. The GIA report has nice specs, very high grade VVS1 clarity, no need to worry about any inclusions. The color G should be very white. You should see the stone in person or have a good return policy, just in case...if the price is right it should be a very nice diamond.

If you want an AGSL Ideal stone, consider going down in clarity to VS1 VS2 or even a SI1 you still can get an eye clean stone. Also H or I color still will be very white and in a setting most could never tell.

 

[ecf8503]

Agree w/ c-k in that VS1 clarity is overkill. You can get an eye clean in almost all VS2 and most SI1's. That would open up your options a bit. That said, the stone must be mind-clean for you, and if that means a higher clarity, then go for it, but don't be afraid of VS2 / SI stones.

 

[RockyRacoon]

Check out this stone -

Under budget, better color, and should be just as eye-clean as the VVS1

1.207ct, F, VS2
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.207-f-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104067041019

 

[SGOne]

Thanks for all the input so far!

I've consider a VS2, but looking at some of the actual images and reports, alot of some pretty serious inclusions. Could be because I'm looking at the stone at high magnification though. VS2 would probably be my threshold. Aside from requiring individual inspection for an eye-clean diamond below a VS2, as ecf8503 said, I'm not sure if it would "mind-clean" for me though I'm certain the price would drop drastically.

Even within the H color VS1/VS2 range, seems to be several diamonds way under my budget with super ideal proportions, but if I can, I would like to get as high a grade diamond as possible while staying within my budget.

Check out this stone -

Under budget, better color, and should be just as eye-clean as the VVS1

1.207ct, F, VS2
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.207-f-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104067041019

The color and images look awesome on that diamond, but I'm still unsure how I feel about diamonds with fluorescence. Additionally, if I'm spending around 11k, I would hopefully like to stay within my VS1 or above range - or atleast not have to sacrifice another attribute (in this case, fluorescence). My understanding is that fluorescence can make a diamond look cloudy or not as clear as one without . Additionally, if I understand correctly, fluorescence on rounds generally decrease the value of the diamond?

Feel free to correct me or convince me otherwise

Does anyone have any criticisms on my first diamond, particularly the hearts image?
I'm just trying to get a feel for what the seasoned pros here think about the diamond and if there are any major criticisms. It's still my front runner and really looking to see if there is someone that would dissuade me or tell me that it's just an okay diamond lol.

 

[krisjon]

Looks good. If you drop down from VVS1 clarity, you might be able to make up for the difference in cost for an ACA. Look for a VS1 or as suggested VS2/SI1 (if eye clean). I also wouldn't be afraid to drop color to a H, either. It's all about balancing the 4 Cs and a super ideal cut like ACA will perform brilliantly and make that H face up very white.

 

[RockyRacoon]

The color and images look awesome on that diamond, but I'm still unsure how I feel about diamonds with fluorescence. Additionally, if I'm spending around 11k, I would hopefully like to stay within my VS1 or above range - or atleast not have to sacrifice another attribute (in this case, fluorescence). My understanding is that fluorescence can make a diamond look cloudy or not as clear as one without . Additionally, if I understand correctly, fluorescence on rounds generally decrease the value of the diamond?

Feel free to correct me or convince me otherwise

Fluorescence is viewed as a positive attribute by many (myself included).

If you read the GIA Report on fluorescence, you'll see that the negative rumors about fluor are just that.

An extremely small portion of stones with fluorescence exhibit negative attributes. Any trustworthy vendor will be able to examine the stone, prior to purchase. The Brian Gavin Blue line, which the stone I had suggested comes from, have all been vetted to have 0 negative effects from fluor. In fact, fluorescence can make a diamond appear whiter.

Fluorescence is a component where an informed consumer can save money, without sacrificing anything else.

 

[c-k]

For what it is worth on the VS2 that you may have looked at...magnified up to 40x....on most all Ideal cut VS2's, you will not see any inclusions with the naked eye. Many of the VS2's you will have a hard time seeing inclusions using a 10x loupe with an untrained eye.

One of my VS2 stones, has several inclusions plotted that I can't find using a 10x. There are many SI1 stones that are eye clean to the naked eye. That does not mean that all VS2 & SI1 are eye clean to the naked eye, but if one can not see an inclusion on these stones, you can save money.....that is my take.

 

[SGOne]

Fluorescence is viewed as a positive attribute by many (myself included).

If you read the GIA Report on fluorescence, you'll see that the negative rumors about fluor are just that.

An extremely small portion of stones with fluorescence exhibit negative attributes. Any trustworthy vendor will be able to examine the stone, prior to purchase. The Brian Gavin Blue line, which the stone I had suggested comes from, have all been vetted to have 0 negative effects from fluor. In fact, fluorescence can make a diamond appear whiter.

Fluorescence is a component where an informed consumer can save money, without sacrificing anything else.

I've personally always liked fluorescence in diamonds and thought it was always pretty neat to see the blue under a blacklight. I think I've just been put off by the numerous blogs and sites that make it sound like fluorescence in diamonds are really a negative attribute instead of a positive one.

That all said, I think the diamond you linked to is great, and will def further expand my search into that realm if my current diamonds don't pan out.

Looks good. If you drop down from VVS1 clarity, you might be able to make up for the difference in cost for an ACA. Look for a VS1 or as suggested VS2/SI1 (if eye clean). I also wouldn't be afraid to drop color to a H, either. It's all about balancing the 4 Cs and a super ideal cut like ACA will perform brilliantly and make that H face up very white.

I think therein lies my dilemma.

I would love an ACA - but ACA is just a grade given to a diamond from Whiteflash w/ an AGS report.

One can assume we are undoubtedly paying a premium just for the ACA grading from Whiteflash.

What I mean to say is - can there be an ACA quality diamond outside Whiteflash, outside AGS graded diamonds?

I'd like to believe so - and those diamonds, IMO would be significantly cheaper than those already marked out for you.
ACA in my opinion, is like paying for the convenience of knowing you are going to get a great diamond. But I don't think that means there aren't ACA quality diamonds from GIA, just that it is much more difficult for an amateur like myself to find without proper inspection.

Hence my post here. From looking at about 40 or 50 diamonds on whiteflash, between "Expert Selection" and ACA diamonds, I've been trying to see the criteria in which one diamond would fail the ACA category and fall into the ES category.

I would like to believe the diamond I have above would fall either in the ACA or ES category, but since I am neither a pro nor experienced, I am completely going off of what I've been reading and seeing almost strictly online in the past couple months. It also doesn't help that I don't have ASET or higher res images of what I already have.

So my bottom line would be - would the diamond I have here fall under the ACA or ES category? Or even lower? Or is there simply not enough information to say one way or the other?
I was hoping someone here who's more experienced could give me insight into that.

 

[RockyRacoon]

Fluorescence is viewed as a positive attribute by many (myself included).

If you read the GIA Report on fluorescence, you'll see that the negative rumors about fluor are just that.

An extremely small portion of stones with fluorescence exhibit negative attributes. Any trustworthy vendor will be able to examine the stone, prior to purchase. The Brian Gavin Blue line, which the stone I had suggested comes from, have all been vetted to have 0 negative effects from fluor. In fact, fluorescence can make a diamond appear whiter.

Fluorescence is a component where an informed consumer can save money, without sacrificing anything else.

I've personally always liked fluorescence in diamonds and thought it was always pretty neat to see the blue under a blacklight. I think I've just been put off by the numerous blogs and sites that make it sound like fluorescence in diamonds are really a negative attribute instead of a positive one.

That all said, I think the diamond you linked to is great, and will def further expand my search into that realm if my current diamonds don't pan out.


[

Don't let other people's ignorance cloud your judgment. Anyone can have a blog and it doesn't indicate any degree of legitimacy.

I would much rather trust GIA's study than some random person.

Even if you don't go for the stone I suggested, fluor is a good way to save $ w/o sacrificing any of the 4 Cs!

 

[Daisyoz]

So my bottom line would be - would the diamond I have here fall under the ACA or ES category? Or even lower? Or is there simply not enough information to say one way or the other?
I was hoping someone here who's more experienced could give me insight into that.

I am no expert, but had done lots of research on WF stones as I too love ACA stones (which my SO, bless his heart, got me one). Do you have info on the star length of your diamond? Also most ACA have lower girdles of 76-77%. ES are simply ones that got AGS000 but fail some of ACA criteria, one of which might be lower girdle of 75. You can look into the True Heart line on JA, many of those are similar to WF ES. That said your stone looks like it s going to be beautiful.

 

[WinkHPD]

Fluorescence is viewed as a positive attribute by many (myself included).

If you read the GIA Report on fluorescence, you'll see that the negative rumors about fluor are just that.

An extremely small portion of stones with fluorescence exhibit negative attributes. Any trustworthy vendor will be able to examine the stone, prior to purchase. The Brian Gavin Blue line, which the stone I had suggested comes from, have all been vetted to have 0 negative effects from fluor. In fact, fluorescence can make a diamond appear whiter.

Fluorescence is a component where an informed consumer can save money, without sacrificing anything else.

I've personally always liked fluorescence in diamonds and thought it was always pretty neat to see the blue under a blacklight. I think I've just been put off by the numerous blogs and sites that make it sound like fluorescence in diamonds are really a negative attribute instead of a positive one.

That all said, I think the diamond you linked to is great, and will def further expand my search into that realm if my current diamonds don't pan out.

Looks good. If you drop down from VVS1 clarity, you might be able to make up for the difference in cost for an ACA. Look for a VS1 or as suggested VS2/SI1 (if eye clean). I also wouldn't be afraid to drop color to a H, either. It's all about balancing the 4 Cs and a super ideal cut like ACA will perform brilliantly and make that H face up very white.

I think therein lies my dilemma.

I would love an ACA - but ACA is just a grade given to a diamond from Whiteflash w/ an AGS report.

One can assume we are undoubtedly paying a premium just for the ACA grading from Whiteflash.

What I mean to say is - can there be an ACA quality diamond outside Whiteflash, outside AGS graded diamonds?

I'd like to believe so - and those diamonds, IMO would be significantly cheaper than those already marked out for you.
ACA in my opinion, is like paying for the convenience of knowing you are going to get a great diamond. But I don't think that means there aren't ACA quality diamonds from GIA, just that it is much more difficult for an amateur like myself to find without proper inspection.

Hence my post here. From looking at about 40 or 50 diamonds on whiteflash, between "Expert Selection" and ACA diamonds, I've been trying to see the criteria in which one diamond would fail the ACA category and fall into the ES category.

I would like to believe the diamond I have above would fall either in the ACA or ES category, but since I am neither a pro nor experienced, I am completely going off of what I've been reading and seeing almost strictly online in the past couple months. It also doesn't help that I don't have ASET or higher res images of what I already have.

So my bottom line would be - would the diamond I have here fall under the ACA or ES category? Or even lower? Or is there simply not enough information to say one way or the other?
I was hoping someone here who's more experienced could give me insight into that.

Yes, there are a few "lucky accidents" out there. You may or may not have found one, but we can not know that without much more detailed information, and even then it would be best done with personal inspection to verify that the look of the diamond is as good as the photography of the diamond.

Your bolded comment reminds me of wanting to buy a great Lamborghini, but not wanting to pay the extra over the price of a Cadillac.

Both are fine machines, but there is little doubt which one is both better made and worth more.

Wink

 

[c-k]

So my bottom line would be - would the diamond I have here fall under the ACA or ES category? Or even lower? Or is there simply not enough information to say one way or the other?
I was hoping someone here who's more experienced could give me insight into that.

I am no expert, but had done lots of research on WF stones as I too love ACA stones (which my SO, bless his heart, got me one). Do you have info on the star length of your diamond? Also most ACA have lower girdles of 76-77%. ES are simply ones that got AGS000 but fail some of ACA criteria, one of which might be lower girdle of 75. You can look into the True Heart line on JA, many of those are similar to WF ES. That said your stone looks like it s going to be beautiful.

Daisyos has given you good information here.

SGOne, you are asking or assuming something that may or may not be....you are asking if the stone your picked is the equal of a AGSL Ideal, well as of now it is not, could it be?, maybe maybe not, the only way you would know is send it to AGS for grading.

Can you find stones cheaper that are equal to a WF A Cut Above...yes, yes you certainly can. Where, well you have to research, do the homework, do the leg work, know what you are looking for and looking at, but it can be done. Maybe that is why Whiteflash, Brian Gavin Diamonds, Infinity, GOG and others have a premium on their stones as they have done all the work for you.

That is why this forum is here, to help all of us learn, understand, educate each other, help those of us wanting to buy that special diamond. There are many people here to help, and great suggestions along the way.

I believe you have a great understanding of what you want and what you are looking for, it is hard, but what you are doing may very well pay off in saving money. Remember there are a lot of people seeking that same value.

 

[c-k]

I did not mean to imply that you needed an AGSL stone to be beautiful....There are GIA stones that would be equally as beautiful.

It is important to note that it is the diamond, not the paper that makes it beautiful. However there is that 'Mind' thing of which I admit to be part of that says, I want it to be on paper. Those vendors that have established themselves as the ones who sell those type of stones do it well and spend a great deal of time to please their customer.

The diamond you are looking at looks to be a very beautiful diamond, look at it in person if you can, or buy from someone who has a good return policy, in the long run only you or your SO will know if it is the one.

 

[SGOne]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies.

So my bottom line would be - would the diamond I have here fall under the ACA or ES category? Or even lower? Or is there simply not enough information to say one way or the other?
I was hoping someone here who's more experienced could give me insight into that.

I am no expert, but had done lots of research on WF stones as I too love ACA stones (which my SO, bless his heart, got me one). Do you have info on the star length of your diamond? Also most ACA have lower girdles of 76-77%. ES are simply ones that got AGS000 but fail some of ACA criteria, one of which might be lower girdle of 75. You can look into the True Heart line on JA, many of those are similar to WF ES. That said your stone looks like it s going to be beautiful.

The star length of the diamond is 50, and the lower girdle is 75. That said, GIA rounds their numbers so a 76 for example, I believe would still be 75, and a 78 would be an 80 (experts feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Looking at the IS image though, the arrow widths look fairly ideal to my amateurish eyes when compared with any ACA diamond.

Comparing ES diamonds vs ACA diamonds, I've found that ACA diamonds just have excellent symmetry and formations between hearts and arrows with little to no light leakage. Many ES diamonds that looked perfect in my eyes, looked like they failed because of light leakage or slight aberrations in the hearts images. I believe I've seen perfect proportioned diamonds that also have 76-77% lower girdles but had either leakage or small issues of symmetry have it dropped from ACA to ES. Additionally some ACA diamonds have noticeably unsymmetrical light performance when I looked at some of the AGS reports, while some ES have perfectly symmetrical light performance. This is again, comparing about 50 ES to ACA diamonds.

Yes, there are a few "lucky accidents" out there. You may or may not have found one, but we can not know that without much more detailed information, and even then it would be best done with personal inspection to verify that the look of the diamond is as good as the photography of the diamond.

Your bolded comment reminds me of wanting to buy a great Lamborghini, but not wanting to pay the extra over the price of a Cadillac.

Both are fine machines, but there is little doubt which one is both better made and worth more.

Wink

Thanks for the input! I agree, I too am trying to get further images to scrutinize the diamond more, but I might just purchase it and bring it to a lab to see for myself.

As for the comparison between diamond searching and wanting a Lamborghini for the price of a Cadillac, with all due respect, I would have to strongly disagree with that metaphor. Especially your last line " there is little doubt which one is both better made and worth more."

The most important distinction here - the grading comes AFTER the diamond is already made, not the other way around. ACA diamonds aren't "made" they're just labeled. Meaning that even a "Cadillac" can easily be or even surpass a "Lamborghini" if we're still following the car metaphor. If GIA gets their hands on the diamond instead of an AGS grader, does that mean the diamond is automatically worth less or is inferior? I'd like to think not, but that is what your metaphor would assume.

That being said, I do understand what you're trying to say though, just perhaps a poor metaphor for it.

I did not mean to imply that you needed an AGSL stone to be beautiful....There are GIA stones that would be equally as beautiful.

It is important to note that it is the diamond, not the paper that makes it beautiful. However there is that 'Mind' thing of which I admit to be part of that says, I want it to be on paper. Those vendors that have established themselves as the ones who sell those type of stones do it well and spend a great deal of time to please their customer.

The diamond you are looking at looks to be a very beautiful diamond, look at it in person if you can, or buy from someone who has a good return policy, in the long run only you or your SO will know if it is the one.

I completely agree. I might just bite the bullet on this one and see it in person. The vendor has a great return policy - so we might just have to see how it goes.

Thanks for all the replies!

 

[teobdl]

Yes, there are a few "lucky accidents" out there. You may or may not have found one, but we can not know that without much more detailed information, and even then it would be best done with personal inspection to verify that the look of the diamond is as good as the photography of the diamond.

Your bolded comment reminds me of wanting to buy a great Lamborghini, but not wanting to pay the extra over the price of a Cadillac.

Both are fine machines, but there is little doubt which one is both better made and worth more.

Wink

Thanks for the input! I agree, I too am trying to get further images to scrutinize the diamond more, but I might just purchase it and bring it to a lab to see for myself.

As for the comparison between diamond searching and wanting a Lamborghini for the price of a Cadillac, with all due respect, I would have to strongly disagree with that metaphor. Especially your last line " there is little doubt which one is both better made and worth more."

The most important distinction here - the grading comes AFTER the diamond is already made, not the other way around. ACA diamonds aren't "made" they're just labeled. Meaning that even a "Cadillac" can easily be or even surpass a "Lamborghini" if we're still following the car metaphor. If GIA gets their hands on the diamond instead of an AGS grader, does that mean the diamond is automatically worth less or is inferior? I'd like to think not, but that is what your metaphor would assume.

That being said, I do understand what you're trying to say though, just perhaps a poor metaphor for it.

Actually, it's my understanding--please correct me if I'm wrong--that ACA (as with Crafted by Infinity and Brian Gavin Signature) are made with the intention of becoming their branded stones. Each diamond is fine-tuned by the team of cutters according to the provided specifications. In other words, the process is not
1. Find a pool of non-branded diamonds
2. Choose the best and brand them

Rather, these brands
1. Make diamonds intended to be branded
2. Put the ones that don't make the cut into the pool of non-branded diamonds.

In this process, they (Brian Gavin's team and and Paul Slegars' [of Infinity] team, don't know about White Flash) inspect every rough purchase and plan out the cutting process. They only buy the rough of these branded diamonds from sellers that they know to be ethical. They only use specific cutting houses or their own teams of cutters. I spoke for >1 hr with both vendors to determine if branding is just a special "concierge" charge. It's not. The process that these branded diamonds undergo is different. I think WF operates the same. I don't know about GOG August Vintage, nor other brands.

Cadillac vs Lambo? Probably not that extreme. But closer to Allen Edmonds and Alden's shoes (beautiful, American made mens shoes) vs. Aldo shoes.

Last point: I did at one point compare side-by-side a beautiful GIA Ex that had, to my rather untrained eyes, very nice hearts against a Brian Gavin Signature diamond. I mixed the two up multiple times and forced myself to choose between the two. Every time, my eyes chose the Brain Gavin Signature. Was the difference great? No, and I wouldn't know the difference if the two weren't side by side. However, the preference was consistently reproducible in every condition. I think everyone should decide for themselves what the differences (both aesthetic and in the process) are worth.

 

[Daisyoz]

Teobld, my understanding is the same as yours. One thing came up consistently in my research for a true H n A super ideals is that they are not made by accident. Of course there are a few "lucky accidents" out there (using Wink's words) but most of them are cut to specifict requirements and need much longer polishing/cutting time. So unless a cutter intends to "make' a true H and A diamond, he would not spend that much time and effort into cutting one. Even if they intend to make them, they could still fail to meet those specific criteria, hence the pool of un branded but still ideal diamonds.

 

[WinkHPD]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies.

<Snip>

Yes, there are a few "lucky accidents" out there. You may or may not have found one, but we can not know that without much more detailed information, and even then it would be best done with personal inspection to verify that the look of the diamond is as good as the photography of the diamond.

Your bolded comment reminds me of wanting to buy a great Lamborghini, but not wanting to pay the extra over the price of a Cadillac.

Both are fine machines, but there is little doubt which one is both better made and worth more.

Wink

Thanks for the input! I agree, I too am trying to get further images to scrutinize the diamond more, but I might just purchase it and bring it to a lab to see for myself.

As for the comparison between diamond searching and wanting a Lamborghini for the price of a Cadillac, with all due respect, I would have to strongly disagree with that metaphor. Especially your last line " there is little doubt which one is both better made and worth more."

The most important distinction here - the grading comes AFTER the diamond is already made, not the other way around. ACA diamonds aren't "made" they're just labeled. Meaning that even a "Cadillac" can easily be or even surpass a "Lamborghini" if we're still following the car metaphor. If GIA gets their hands on the diamond instead of an AGS grader, does that mean the diamond is automatically worth less or is inferior? I'd like to think not, but that is what your metaphor would assume.

That being said, I do understand what you're trying to say though, just perhaps a poor metaphor for it.

<Snip>

I want to thank teodbl for her excellent reply but I would also like to reply directly to you.

Frankly, I do not know the procedure at WhiteFlash or Brian Gavin Diamonds, but I do know something about the procedure at Crafted by Infinity. Paul Slegers overseas the cutting of fewer than 1,000 Crafted by Infinity diamonds per year. The inspection starts either with the rough, or with a diamond chosen for recutting. After each and every step, the diamond is returned to Paul and inspected by him for perfection of the process. That means after the diamond is inked, he inspects it. After it is sawn, he inspects it. After it is brutted, he inspects it. After it is blocked he inspects it. After the pavilion is finished he inspects it with a keen eye to did the pavilion angle come out as it was assigned or does he need to make an adjustment to the crown angle to save the stone or just finish it as best he can and sell it out the back door as a stone that we dealers will never know existed, even though it will be better than most of the diamonds on the market. After the crown is finished he inspects it, assigns a final color and clarity grade to his estimation of the diamond's color and clarity grades and then sends it to AGS to see what they say. These diamonds are NOT LUCKY ACCIDENTS! They are planned from step one, and Paul is so incredibly detail oriented about his diamonds that I suspect the planning starts long before step one.

I do not know of one other diamond cutter who pays this kind of attention to each and every step of the plan and the results are consistently magnificent.

Not a chance in a hot and overcrowded place that the cadillac was ever made that is better than this Lamborghini. Having been selling these diamonds for many years I have sent many of them out to be personally inspected by potential clients. In over 80% of the time, the diamond is kept, even when inspected without knowing which diamond was which when compared in "blind taste tests" with other diamonds that also have the AGS0 cut grade.

I do believe that you will be able to find a beautiful diamond with a GIA paper. I have sold hundreds of them in my career and will sell hundreds more. When you are ready for the absolute best though, you will want to talk with only a handful of dealers who spend more to get more and who thus must sell it for more. That's all I am really saying. There may be a few "Lucky Accidents" out there, but if their owners knew how special they were you can be sure they would have been sent to AGS to get that grade and the 3 - 5 percent premium in pricing that the AGS paper brings.

Wink

P.S. If I have misstated anything the fault is mine, not Paul's and I am sure he will make any corrections that are needed. I probably missed some steps and other important considerations, but my intent should be very clear to all.

 

[SGOne]

I'd first like to start by saying thank you to all the thoughtful replies!

Actually, it's my understanding--please correct me if I'm wrong--that ACA (as with Crafted by Infinity and Brian Gavin Signature) are made with the intention of becoming their branded stones. Each diamond is fine-tuned by the team of cutters according to the provided specifications. In other words, the process is not
1. Find a pool of non-branded diamonds
2. Choose the best and brand them

Rather, these brands
1. Make diamonds intended to be branded
2. Put the ones that don't make the cut into the pool of non-branded diamonds.

In this process, they (Brian Gavin's team and and Paul Slegars' [of Infinity] team, don't know about White Flash) inspect every rough purchase and plan out the cutting process. They only buy the rough of these branded diamonds from sellers that they know to be ethical. They only use specific cutting houses or their own teams of cutters. I spoke for >1 hr with both vendors to determine if branding is just a special "concierge" charge. It's not. The process that these branded diamonds undergo is different. I think WF operates the same. I don't know about GOG August Vintage, nor other brands.

Cadillac vs Lambo? Probably not that extreme. But closer to Allen Edmonds and Alden's shoes (beautiful, American made mens shoes) vs. Aldo shoes.

Last point: I did at one point compare side-by-side a beautiful GIA Ex that had, to my rather untrained eyes, very nice hearts against a Brian Gavin Signature diamond. I mixed the two up multiple times and forced myself to choose between the two. Every time, my eyes chose the Brain Gavin Signature. Was the difference great? No, and I wouldn't know the difference if the two weren't side by side. However, the preference was consistently reproducible in every condition. I think everyone should decide for themselves what the differences (both aesthetic and in the process) are worth.

Do BG, WF or other houses have their own skilled team of cutters? I don't doubt that - but at the end of the day, the grading is still after the cutting, and the proportions for perfect diamonds are still the same. Do they consistently produce MORE high quality diamonds - perhaps. But are their ideal cut diamonds necessarily better than the rest? Not necessarily. I think the point is - a super ideal diamond will be a super ideal diamond, whether it's cut from BG, graded from AGS or graded from GIA. A "Cadillac" which we are referring to as diamonds not branded by a diamond brand, can very possibly be every way better than a "Lamborghini", a diamond that has been branded by a diamond house.

A graded diamond from a diamond grader like WF or BG simply means they passed a specific level of tests. But it doesn't mean a GIA diamond wouldn't pass the same tests. BG and other cutters don't have extra special sauce or any secret ingredient that makes their diamonds more sparkly, they are just cherry picking diamonds that are cut well and labeling them. You are paying for the convenience of knowing you are getting an excellent diamond. Nothing more and nothing less. But that's not a bad thing considering how difficult it is for an amateur like ourselves to pick out a stellar diamond.

I have had the same experience with seeing poor GIA XXX diamonds. I have looked at about 20 diamonds that were all GIA XXX grade and HCA grade < 2.0. When it came down to looking at the idealscope or hearts and arrows or ASET images - it was shocking to see the variance in quality. I have seen a few GIA XXX that looked incredible, and some that were abysmal. This is more of an indication of how antiquated and obsolete the GIA grading system is than it is proof that GIA diamonds are inferior.

I want to thank teodbl for her excellent reply but I would also like to reply directly to you.

Frankly, I do not know the procedure at WhiteFlash or Brian Gavin Diamonds, but I do know something about the procedure at Crafted by Infinity. Paul Slegers overseas the cutting of fewer than 1,000 Crafted by Infinity diamonds per year. The inspection starts either with the rough, or with a diamond chosen for recutting. After each and every step, the diamond is returned to Paul and inspected by him for perfection of the process. That means after the diamond is inked, he inspects it. After it is sawn, he inspects it. After it is brutted, he inspects it. After it is blocked he inspects it. After the pavilion is finished he inspects it with a keen eye to did the pavilion angle come out as it was assigned or does he need to make an adjustment to the crown angle to save the stone or just finish it as best he can and sell it out the back door as a stone that we dealers will never know existed, even though it will be better than most of the diamonds on the market. After the crown is finished he inspects it, assigns a final color and clarity grade to his estimation of the diamond's color and clarity grades and then sends it to AGS to see what they say. These diamonds are NOT LUCKY ACCIDENTS! They are planned from step one, and Paul is so incredibly detail oriented about his diamonds that I suspect the planning starts long before step one.

I do not know of one other diamond cutter who pays this kind of attention to each and every step of the plan and the results are consistently magnificent.

Not a chance in a hot and overcrowded place that the cadillac was ever made that is better than this Lamborghini. Having been selling these diamonds for many years I have sent many of them out to be personally inspected by potential clients. In over 80% of the time, the diamond is kept, even when inspected without knowing which diamond was which when compared in "blind taste tests" with other diamonds that also have the AGS0 cut grade.

I do believe that you will be able to find a beautiful diamond with a GIA paper. I have sold hundreds of them in my career and will sell hundreds more. When you are ready for the absolute best though, you will want to talk with only a handful of dealers who spend more to get more and who thus must sell it for more. That's all I am really saying. There may be a few "Lucky Accidents" out there, but if their owners knew how special they were you can be sure they would have been sent to AGS to get that grade and the 3 - 5 percent premium in pricing that the AGS paper brings.

Wink

If I have misstated anything the fault is mine, not Paul's and I am sure he will make any corrections that are needed. I probably missed some steps and other important considerations, but my intent should be very clear to all.

First - I really appreciate your thoughtful input as a veteran of this site

My response to teobdl above I believe is applicable to your post as well

Considering that I am nothing but an amateur, feel free to take my posts for a grain of salt from somebody that doesn't know the industry and is purely speculating on my own anecdotal evidence. You can say this may be just my being hopeful that one day we can all easily find ideal diamonds without having to shop around and be limited to certain dealers

 

[WinkHPD]

I'd first like to start by saying thank you to all the thoughtful replies!

<Snip>

First - I really appreciate your thoughtful input as a veteran of this site

My response to teobdl above I believe is applicable to your post as well

Considering that I am nothing but an amateur, feel free to take my posts for a grain of salt from somebody that doesn't know the industry and is purely speculating on my own anecdotal evidence. You can say this may be just my being hopeful that one day we can all easily find ideal diamonds without having to shop around and be limited to certain dealers

Would that it would someday happen. Sadly, diamond cutting on average is getting slightly worse to take advantage of the GIA's super loose Excellent cutting range. Since GIA allows ridiculously steep/deep combinations to be graded to Excellent standards many of the big cutters are now cutting to these standards as their cut of choice. It is getting increasingly harder to find a stone cut to the proportions that they would have to cut to to get the AGS 0 cut grade.

Why? Well let's talk about diamonds of one carat or more. Lets assume that you are a truly big house, and you cut 5,000 of such sized stones per month. Forget those you cut just to save the carat instead of the 0.99ct stone (20 - 25% loss of value for that miniscule point), think about the dollars you can make if each of those 5000 stones is even one point larger than it would be if you cut them for beauty instead of weight. 5000 points would be fifty carats more weight at the end of the month.

Now we all know that those 50 carats do not sell for pocket money, and for each thousand dollars per carat that they sell for, that is $50,000 per month MORE in your pocket.

Oh, and you do NOT have to drop the price for your poopy cutting because you still get the GIA Excellent cut grade. YEEHAW cowboy, now that's what I call a Calf Rope!

GIA with lots of industry support created a worthless cut grade that pays the vendors more to cut less properly. What do YOU see happening in your crystal ball.

Frankly, I wish that public opinion and an educated market would force GIA to come up with a decent cut grade system, but the same folks who pay so much to support GIA will be fighting that in the future that I foresee.

Wink

 

[teobdl]

...
A graded diamond from a diamond grader like WF or BG simply means they passed a specific level of tests. But it doesn't mean a GIA diamond wouldn't pass the same tests. BG and other cutters don't have extra special sauce or any secret ingredient that makes their diamonds more sparkly, they are just cherry picking diamonds that are cut well and labeling them. You are paying for the convenience of knowing you are getting an excellent diamond. Nothing more and nothing less. But that's not a bad thing considering how difficult it is for an amateur like ourselves to pick out a stellar diamond.
...

The bolded portion above is not true. The process as told by Wink is not at all the same as other cutting houses. Quality control is not the same as cherry picking. That's like saying Hermes Berkin cherry picks well-made handbags and brands them.

Slegars and BG "fine tune" diamonds to a level of expertise and diligence that is largely ignored by many cutters.

If your sole interest is end product aesthetics, then yes, a small percentage of non-branded diamonds will have very similar aesthetics, and many prosumers will help you find these diamonds. Also, if you're only considering aesthetics (light performance), then functionally speaking, branded diamonds are like having a pool of can't-miss purchases, which you pay a premium for. But, for me and others, even after considering the can't-miss beauty of a branded diamond, it IS more than aesthetics alone.

ETA: the diamond you posted initially looks like an excellent choice

 

[SGOne]

The bolded portion above is not true. The process as told by Wink is not at all the same as other cutting houses. Quality control is not the same as cherry picking. That's like saying Hermes Berkin cherry picks well-made handbags and brands them.

Slegars and BG "fine tune" diamonds to a level of expertise and diligence that is largely ignored by many cutters.

If your sole interest is end product aesthetics, then yes, a small percentage of non-branded diamonds will have very similar aesthetics, and many prosumers will help you find these diamonds. Also, if you're only considering aesthetics (light performance), then functionally speaking, branded diamonds are like having a pool of can't-miss purchases, which you pay a premium for. But, for me and others, even after considering the can't-miss beauty of a branded diamond, it IS more than aesthetics alone.

ETA: the diamond you posted initially looks like an excellent choice

Thanks for your thoughtful response!

The process you speak of above ("fine tuning"), allows for more consistently high quality diamonds. It again, doesn't necessarily mean they are higher quality diamonds than those that didn't go through fine tuning, just mean they make more consistently.

With regards to your metaphor of Hermes handbags - with all due respect - I think that's even further off than the Cadillac and Lamborghini metaphor. You're comparing handbags to diamonds. What makes a handbag valuable is completely different from what makes a diamond valuable. Outside the fact that you are absolutely paying a premium for the name, Hermes can claim they use the "best material", diamonds are diamonds. An LV bag can never be a Hermes Berkin bag, but a GIA graded diamond CAN be an ACA diamond.

 

[c-k]

With regards to your metaphor of Hermes handbags - with all due respect - I think that's even further off than the Cadillac and Lamborghini metaphor. You're comparing handbags to diamonds. What makes a handbag valuable is completely different from what makes a diamond valuable. Outside the fact that you are absolutely paying a premium for the name, Hermes can claim they use the "best material", diamonds are diamonds. An LV bag can never be a Hermes Berkin bag, but a GIA graded diamond CAN be an ACA diamond.

SGOne, you got this way wrong....a GIA diamond is a GIA diamond, it will never be an AGSL diamond unless it is sent in and graded by AGSL....you are assuming (ON YOUR OWN) you can find a GIA that will grade a AGSL 'A Cut Above' Super Ideal....you can assume all you want, you can speculate all you want, you can guess all you want.....but you ON YOUR OWN will never know if that stone in your hand is what you think it is.....it will always be what it is.

I believe there must be something more to your pursuit of whatever it is you are looking for....don't beat yourself up, buy what you can afford, buy what you like, buy what looks good to you, buy something that will make you and your SO happy. Don't try to make something that is, something that is not.

There are beautiful GIA stones out there, buy one and be happy.

 

[SGOne]

SGOne, you got this way wrong....a GIA diamond is a GIA diamond, it will never be an AGSL diamond unless it is sent in and graded by AGSL....you are assuming (ON YOUR OWN) you can find a GIA that will grade a AGSL 'A Cut Above' Super Ideal....you can assume all you want, you can speculate all you want, you can guess all you want.....but you ON YOUR OWN will never know if that stone in your hand is what you think it is.....it will always be what it is.

I believe there must be something more to your pursuit of whatever it is you are looking for....don't beat yourself up, buy what you can afford, buy what you like, buy what looks good to you, buy something that will make you and your SO happy. Don't try to make something that is, something that is not.

There are beautiful GIA stones out there, buy one and be happy.

Yikes. I'm sorry if I have offended you in some way.

First, I never stated that a GIA diamond is an AGSL diamond, but that a GIA diamond can be of equal or greater QUALITY than an AGSL diamond. I apologize that my last line "GIA graded diamond CAN be an ACA diamond" may have stirred some confusion, but I thought it was self explanatory that I was referring to the quality. I assure you that, though I am no expert, I know that GIA != AGSL.

Second, I respectfully disagree that just because you have a GIA diamond that you can never know if you have a great diamond that would parallel or surpass an AGSL graded diamond. I do believe there is a science to it. With a complete set of proportions as well as the right set of images (particular light performance maps) I would like to believe even an astute amateur can be confident of how particularly good a diamond is compared to another.

I'm not really certain what you're getting at when you say I'm beating myself up, or what I can and can't afford, etc. but that certainly is presumptuous. I've never attempted to make something that is not to something that is - and I think this is the point I'm trying to make. A great diamond will be a great diamond, whether it has a GIA or AGSL certificate attached to it.

If ever there was a motive, it would be to find those great diamonds out there that haven't been cherry picked and for amateurs like myself who are willing to do the legwork to find them. I would hope there are others like me who don't believe such an endeavor is as futile as some would have us believe.

I very much appreciate all the feedback I've gotten on the thread and all the veterans who have chimed in. This is a great community and I'm happy to have been a part of it. Every bit has been educational.

I will now be signing off on this thread as it has since digressed far from it's initial purpose.
My sincerest apologies if I have offended anyone.

Thanks again!

 

[Christina...]

SGOne, you got this way wrong....a GIA diamond is a GIA diamond, it will never be an AGSL diamond unless it is sent in and graded by AGSL....you are assuming (ON YOUR OWN) you can find a GIA that will grade a AGSL 'A Cut Above' Super Ideal....you can assume all you want, you can speculate all you want, you can guess all you want.....but you ON YOUR OWN will never know if that stone in your hand is what you think it is.....it will always be what it is.

I believe there must be something more to your pursuit of whatever it is you are looking for....don't beat yourself up, buy what you can afford, buy what you like, buy what looks good to you, buy something that will make you and your SO happy. Don't try to make something that is, something that is not.

There are beautiful GIA stones out there, buy one and be happy.

Yikes. I'm sorry if I have offended you in some way.

First, I never stated that a GIA diamond is an AGSL diamond, but that a GIA diamond can be of equal or greater QUALITY than an AGSL diamond. I apologize that my last line "GIA graded diamond CAN be an ACA diamond" may have stirred some confusion, but I thought it was self explanatory that I was referring to the quality. I assure you that, though I am no expert, I know that GIA != AGSL.

Second, I respectfully disagree that just because you have a GIA diamond that you can never know if you have a great diamond that would parallel or surpass an AGSL graded diamond. I do believe there is a science to it. With a complete set of proportions as well as the right set of images (particular light performance maps) I would like to believe even an astute amateur can be confident of how particularly good a diamond is compared to another.

I'm not really certain what you're getting at when you say I'm beating myself up, or what I can and can't afford, etc. but that certainly is presumptuous. I've never attempted to make something that is not to something that is - and I think this is the point I'm trying to make. A great diamond will be a great diamond, whether it has a GIA or AGSL certificate attached to it.

If ever there was a motive, it would be to find those great diamonds out there that haven't been cherry picked and for amateurs like myself who are willing to do the legwork to find them. I would hope there are others like me who don't believe such an endeavor is as futile as some would have us believe.

I very much appreciate all the feedback I've gotten on the thread and all the veterans who have chimed in. This is a great community and I'm happy to have been a part of it. Every bit has been educational.

I will now be signing off on this thread as it has since digressed far from it's initial purpose.
My sincerest apologies if I have offended anyone.

Thanks again!

I'm sorry that you are leaving the thread. I used to post quite regularly and have only recently chimed in again. It's threads like these that I feel are of most value to this community. You'll find that most here are pretty thick skinned and not easily offended, nor did you say or imply anything that should have been taken as such.

The stone that you have selected looks beautiful. Will you visually be able to tell (or care) the difference between it and a signature stone? Who knows? Would any differences, if noticed, be significant enough for you to pay more for lower color and clarity? Who knows? Until YOU view a stone that you have vetted next to an ACA that WF has vetted, then you likely never will know. You can do all the research you want, order all the additional information you feel you need, but until you know and understand the processes in which WF uses when examining it's stones for the ACA line, you will never be able to choose one yourself. There was a thread years ago in which John Pollard listed many of the steps that WF took when assessing it's ACA line. I will look for it and try to link it, but it went far beyond simple angles and light performance and well into difficult concepts such as yaw and azimuth shift. Can you find a beautiful non signature stone? Sure, but it won't be an ACA until it's gone through the same stringent inspection that any other ACA has and has passed. I do agree with you though, that it is possible to find a GIA stone that would also receive AGS0 grading....but that isn't what we were discussing, an AGS0 stone does not in and of itself make an ACA.

 

[yssie]

Everything Christina said! WF chooses to send their ACAs to AGSL because they, and their niche market, value AGSL reports over GIA reports.

GIA vs. AGSL is largely irrelevant. I'll just ditto this - again - because I think this is where a lot of the confusion is coming in:

I do agree with you though, that it is possible to find a GIA stone that would also receive AGS0 grading....but that isn't what we were discussing, an AGS0 stone does not in and of itself make an ACA.

 

[yssie]

ETA Christina - good to see you back!! RT missed you

 

[WinkHPD]

ETA Christina - good to see you back!! RT missed you

Agreed.

Wink

 

[Tourmaline]

FYI, I would never go below VS1, because I can see the inclusions without magnification in the vast majority of VS2 and below, and even in some VS1. Stick to your guns and go with the parameters that matter to you.

 

[WinkHPD]

SGOne, you got this way wrong....a GIA diamond is a GIA diamond, it will never be an AGSL diamond unless it is sent in and graded by AGSL....you are assuming (ON YOUR OWN) you can find a GIA that will grade a AGSL 'A Cut Above' Super Ideal....you can assume all you want, you can speculate all you want, you can guess all you want.....but you ON YOUR OWN will never know if that stone in your hand is what you think it is.....it will always be what it is.

I believe there must be something more to your pursuit of whatever it is you are looking for....don't beat yourself up, buy what you can afford, buy what you like, buy what looks good to you, buy something that will make you and your SO happy. Don't try to make something that is, something that is not.

There are beautiful GIA stones out there, buy one and be happy.

Yikes. I'm sorry if I have offended you in some way.

First, I never stated that a GIA diamond is an AGSL diamond, but that a GIA diamond can be of equal or greater QUALITY than an AGSL diamond. I apologize that my last line "GIA graded diamond CAN be an ACA diamond" may have stirred some confusion, but I thought it was self explanatory that I was referring to the quality. I assure you that, though I am no expert, I know that GIA != AGSL.

Second, I respectfully disagree that just because you have a GIA diamond that you can never know if you have a great diamond that would parallel or surpass an AGSL graded diamond. I do believe there is a science to it. With a complete set of proportions as well as the right set of images (particular light performance maps) I would like to believe even an astute amateur can be confident of how particularly good a diamond is compared to another.

I'm not really certain what you're getting at when you say I'm beating myself up, or what I can and can't afford, etc. but that certainly is presumptuous. I've never attempted to make something that is not to something that is - and I think this is the point I'm trying to make. A great diamond will be a great diamond, whether it has a GIA or AGSL certificate attached to it.

If ever there was a motive, it would be to find those great diamonds out there that haven't been cherry picked and for amateurs like myself who are willing to do the legwork to find them. I would hope there are others like me who don't believe such an endeavor is as futile as some would have us believe.

I very much appreciate all the feedback I've gotten on the thread and all the veterans who have chimed in. This is a great community and I'm happy to have been a part of it. Every bit has been educational.

I will now be signing off on this thread as it has since digressed far from it's initial purpose.
My sincerest apologies if I have offended anyone.

Thanks again!

Speaking only for myself, I was not offended in any way, I thought it a fascinating conversation.

As for your statement in red, I believe that in some ways you are correct in that with the information you have asked for you can assess the potential AGS light performance grade, but it will do nothing towards helping you assess the polish and symmetry grading. In the GIA cut grading system, you can have a GIA Excellent cut grade even if the polish and symmetry are only graded as Very Good. In the AGS cut grading system, all three must receive the 0 grade in order to get the coveted AGS0 cut grade. So technically c-k is right, you can not assume that your GIA Excellent with all the right numbers will get an AGS 0 cut grade without sending it to them. You CAN assume, and for the purpose of your search, probably should assume that the diamond "could" get an AGS 0 light performance rating, which must not be confused with an AGS 0 cut grade.

I too wish you a successful search and have sought only to share my view of why certain diamonds ARE worth more than others that are similarly graded. Even amongst AGS 0 cut grade diamonds there are very noticeable visual differences between diamond. There will those that just barely make the grade but are yet included in the coveted AGS 0 cut grade, but they look very different to the eye from the few that are at the top of the grade, even if the paper is identical.

I will compliment you on working this hard. At this time, you probably know more that at least 85% of the retail jewelers in this country about diamond cutting. As sad as this reflects upon my industry, it does make your search easier somewhat, as you have less competition from those who actually should be out there searching for their clients for the stones that would make you happy.

Wink