Any DINK (Double income no kids) couples out there?

[moremoremore]

I do understand part of what you are saying one drop...it's poverty consciousness...if you are not going anywhere, it can be a helpless and self-perpetuating cycle...but I think most of it is just an excuse...you don't need to be educated...it is a basic understanding that if you can't afford a kid. Don't have one. And they can certainly understand that having another will increase the hardship..I think it's because those people just don't care. They expect assistance and will expect more with more kids..they have no future and don't care that their kids won't either. That's the sad part....of course, now we're talking about different situations than hard working people trying to make ends meet....They may be having kids in situations and circumstances that they can't control...but they certainly CAN control getting pregnant...that's the different between thinking men and animals...

p.s. and I guess I'm keeping this to people in the US. I understand that different cultures have different perspectives on the amount of kids you have and why you have kids and birth control

 

[WTNLVR]

Dancing fire: I don''t need or want kids kissing me good night! My puppies kiss me constantly and I am truly blessed by them. Like I said- nothing against those that have kids I think they are blessed. BUT, I feel blessed with the animal kingdom and am happy to leave it at that. And I don''t have to pay tuition-but that had NOTHING to do with my ultimate descision as I could afford it.It tics me off when my bro-in-law has 4 kids he can''t "afford" on welfare. The state is paying for them for medical insurance, schools, food stamps, etc.. Why? Because she had to keep having babies until she had a girl!!! Her whole family is on welfare and she knows all the tricks and uses them to the max. Now, I am a SW and I have nothing against welfare for those that need it, but those that keep having kids when they know they can''t afford it ticks me off. To boot, none of my husbands sibs went to college and no way will these kids. So, they will have little future unless they are smart enough to get scholarships to college (which is unlikely given their parents IQ). I just see it as a sad situation. Bringing up a kid that is not likely to succeed and end up on welfare themselves is just irresponsible ( unless it''s an "accident"). O.k. Let the missles begin- I''m ready. Too much time in public service(which is why I left it).

 

[Mara]

I totally agree WTN and mmm....isn't the system setup where the more kids you have the more $$ you get? Sure, let me have another child so I can get another $100 a month, what does that cover anyway? The whole thing is just very sad for more reasons than just money. What sort of lives will those poor kids have?

Seriously, I feel like if you are on welfare and can't afford kids then the next thing the State or US should pay for is your tubes to be tied. I bet the cost of that operation will be much less than the cost of paying these irresponsible mothers for the next 18 years on another child or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5.

But god forbid we infringe upon a woman's right to bear life! Even if she can't afford it. IMO it should be if you want government assistance, then you have to take the appropriate steps.

 

[Libster]

Date: 8/2/2005 12:37:30 PM
Author: widget
I''ve been reading this thread with interest....and wonder....are there any much older DINKs out there who could contribute? As one approaches the end of his life, is there ever regret over not having had children?

I''m in my sixties. Unlike today''s couples, we didn''t really think much about whether or not to have kids...we just had em. And I am so thankful that we did! I''m blown away by the pleasure and satisfaction I get watching my adult children raise their children (and do a better job of it, I might add..) They are remarkable young people and they enrich my life.

When I go, I''ll be leaving behind much much more than a nice jewelry collection or +3600 sq. ft. of living space.

JM2cts..
widget

Widget,
Your words brought tears to my eyes, you expressed so wonderfully how much your children have enriched your life. When I read something like this, I do wonder if I made the right choice to be childless. Is all this freedom to do what I want when I want, really worth more than having children?

I''ve posted on one of these type threads before that the time has now passed for me and the door is closed. Most of the time I''m confident it was the best choice, until a life changing event occurs or I read something such as what you conveyed. I then begin to wonder....what if? But, that is a pointless wonder because it is no longer an option.

Don''t know if I''m making sense. I read what others have written and remember how I would swing back and forth from 35 til 40 and then 40 dropped in with a bang, and here I am. My Mother-n-law is a successful career woman and raised 5 amazing children. I look at her in awe and wonder at exactly how she managed to pull it off. She is now retired and even though she was tops in her career field, the things in her life that she considers her greatest accomplishment are her children. Forget everything else she says, they are her legacy and she is filled with such pride watching them live their lives. There is obviously something very special about motherhood.

 

[Mara]

"Unlike today's couples, we didn't really think much about whether or not to have kids...we just had em."

Honestly, I think that is what is a huge difference nowadays!! It was almost too easy back then. Now it's WAY too much thought about yes or no or maybe so. About the ramifications or results. About yourself vs the potential kids. Sometimes I wish I had found Greg when I was 20 and he was 26 and we could have just popped out a few kids before we knew any better. We would have been much more poor, but who knows what else. Now the thought that goes into the decision is almost daunting.

 

[kbaker]

That''s my biggest fear, one day waking up and regretting the decision. Sometimes I feel that we are too comfortable in our lives. We live this happy, simple comfortable life. So why change it? On the other hand, SOmetimes a shake up is a great thing. I think the number one thing holding us back are the high number of people out there that I talk to. So many people report that kids interfered with their marriage, they lost their concept of self, and that if they could have gone back, they may have made another decision. My married with kids friends for the most part, complain about being tired, that their husbands just don''t contribute enough, that their house if always a mess, that they haven''t lost the baby weight. It''s nuts. On the other hand, from my DINK friends, I hear all good reports. Great marriage, a love for their professional work, and it goes on and on.


It is so hard to balance a career, family, happy marriage. I personally don''t think that I can divide my self into that many pieces and be happy. I''d rather do a couple of things really well.

k-

 

[Jennifer5973]

Date: 8/2/2005 7:10:19 PM
Author: MrsFrk
I get kisses every day from children who give me squeezer hugs and tell me that they love me.

I am not one of those childless people who lords around bragging about how great life is. Please don''t be one of those parents who tries to convince us that life is hollow and pointless without them. There''s room and a place for all of us.

Thank you.

 

[websailor]

This is slightly off topic, but being true to myself, I thought I''d post it.... Enjoy

One time at one of our family get-togethers the kids got our parents slightly drunk

(as were we). We had some nice wide ranging discussions and it entered into the subject of kids.....

Specifically, how did the six of us kids come about. Since we were all grown ups by then, my parents knew we didn''t mean in the biblical sense.

My dad, whom I somewhat take after, in a straight voice but with that ever-so-handsome sly grin on his face, said this:

"Fits of wartime passion."

We each looked at each other, quickly calculating the birth dates.... Yup, a couple of major wars in there and my Dad had told us about his times in the Navy and the Reserves....just about each time he got leave back to the USA, out popped another kid nine months later.....

We all had a great laugh at his comment!

They loved us all and are great parents......

 

[widget]

Author: Mara
''Unlike today''s couples, we didn''t really think much about whether or not to have kids...we just had em.''

Honestly, I think that is what is a huge difference nowadays!! It was almost too easy back then. Now it''s WAY too much thought about yes or no or maybe so.

I guess this is the way I think...even though it isn''t very popular around here

...

I just wonder how many of US would be walking the earth if our parents and grandparents had thought about parenthood as much as people do today!

widget

 

[Dancing Fire]

i agree 110%

with WTNLVR & Mara on the subject of welfare.i always say... you "F***" you pay to support the child.

 

[widget]

Author: Libster

Widget,
Your words brought tears to my eyes, you expressed so wonderfully how much your children have enriched your life. When I read something like this, I do wonder if I made the right choice to be childless. Is all this freedom to do what I want when I want, really worth more than having children?

Libby...and your words touched me ....reminding me how wrenching and difficult it must be to make such an important decision...

It was so different forty years ago. I had both of my kids before I was 25, and was still relatively young when they were out of the house...I honestly doubt that I would have had them if I''d been starting out in my late thirties...

Obviously it''s a different and more complicated world....and there is no "right answer"...

widget

 

[MrsFrk]

It is such a different world now- for people who began their families when it was possible to buy a home, a decent car, take annual vacations, AND have only one parent work, it can be puzzling as to why the heck younger people are struggling so with the decision to start a family.

 

[AChiOAlumna]

Date: 8/3/2005 12:20:14 AM
Author: MrsFrk
It is such a different world now- for people who began their families when it was possible to buy a home, a decent car, take annual vacations, AND have only one parent work, it can be puzzling as to why the heck younger people are struggling so with the decision to start a family.

You make a good point MrsFrk. My parents married in their VERY early 20s. My dad was able to work full time and my mom was a SAHM when I was born. She stayed at home until my sister was in school and then was only P/T to be home when my sister came home. Once I got my driver''s license and could pick my sister up from school, she went back to work F/T. They bought their 1st home in 1973.

Since then, many children are raised to go to college first, establish themselves and then get married. So while my parents were 20 and 22 respectively, today''s youth do not consider marriage until mid- to late-20s and even later. With the economy also overinflated, it''s harder to have SAHMs (although I commend those who can do it!). All my friends who have children have to work...I only know of one acquaintance who has been able to SAH as she has 4 young children and daycare would end up sucking up her entire paycheck if she worked, so it''s easier for her to SAH.

My parents expected us to go to college...there was no question upon graduating high school. We were to find careers, make ourselves independent and start our own lives. I think for us (my sister is a purposeful DINK as well), our career-orientation goals and the rewards we cherish that go with it overtook our desires to have children. I love kids and play with my friends'' children every chance I get, but I don''t regret (right now) not having my own.

 

[icekid]

Even though these threads can become a bit heated, I love them because they really do make you think.

My bf (almost FI!) and I are not sure if we will have children. We are only 24 and 25 right now, so the real decision will not be for a while regardless. I would say we are about 70/30 leaning toward having them eventually, but probably not until the end of my medical training which will not be for at least another 7 or 8 years. While I love kids, I am not one who feels like I would need to be with my children 24/7 to be a good and effective parent. I am confident that I will be able to make space for them in my life, should I choose to. I do think about things like how it will change my relationship w/ my husband, how it will change our lives. It is a huge decision!

I have absolutely NO problem w/ the decision not to have children- especially w/ the rampant misdirection of most parents these days. Including my own! Somehow, my brother and I ended up fine, but the youngest two siblings are so spoiled and overindulged that I end up yelling at my mother frequently for doing this to them. I hope that they end up ok eventually, but at the moment- I worry about them! They are basically good kids, but have come to expect that my mother will give them whatever they want. Unfortunately, my dad often just lets it go, especially since he travels very frequently for work. SIGH!

I do, however, not agree w/ the idea that children are not more "special" than the average adult. You''re talking about someone who is completely helpless. They require protection. They require nurturing. They are unlimited possibility. I fully expect to make an impact on this earth as a physician. But I won''t pretend that "I could be anything"- not anymore!

I also do not think it is anyone''s RIGHT to have a nice dinner out without children around. Don''t get me wrong, when I go out to dinner with my bf I would be absolutely annoyed as well if someone was not controlling their unruly children. However, they have as much a right to exist there as I do. The only place you have the right to exist to YOUR expectations is your home. To me, it''s the same thing as me deciding that the patron next to me is fat and ugly, and I don''t want them to interrupt my dinner. Obviously, that''s ridiculous.

I don''t worry too much about the cost of raising a child, though I know it will be exorbitant- especially as I plan to put my children completely through college (except perhaps with the proviso that they provide their own spending money). Though I am lucky that I will have a career that will allow me to do this.

The thing that really gives me pause when I consider the lives of our future children is the world that I am bringing them into. Today, my 14 year old sister has friends and acquaintances who drink, smoke, do drugs, and have sex. I only hope that she is not doing these things yet, and talk to her about why she is too young. When I was 14 (only 10 years ago!), things were so different. If I have children, I want them to BE children- not mini adults who dress like little sexpots at the age of 8. I want them to play and have fun!

re: the welfare kids. I do feel similarly to many of you. I work hard for my money (not that I have any now as a student!), and I would prefer not to donate it to people who have children thoughtlessly without the ability to support them. But at the same time, you have to understand the environment these kids come from. That lifestyle is all they know. Thankfully, some of them are able to escape, but it''s hard to fault them for not being able to overcome their circumstances (yes, which were probably the same their own parents had). Clearly, something has to change so the cycle does not keep perpetuating itself.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 8/3/2005 9:32:45 AM
Author: icekid

I do, however, not agree w/ the idea that children are not more ''special'' than the average adult. You''re talking about someone who is completely helpless. They require protection. They require nurturing. They are unlimited possibility. I fully expect to make an impact on this earth as a physician. But I won''t pretend that ''I could be anything''- not anymore!

I also do not think it is anyone''s RIGHT to have a nice dinner out without children around. Don''t get me wrong, when I go out to dinner with my bf I would be absolutely annoyed as well if someone was not controlling their unruly children. However, they have as much a right to exist there as I do. The only place you have the right to exist to YOUR expectations is your home. To me, it''s the same thing as me deciding that the patron next to me is fat and ugly, and I don''t want them to interrupt my dinner. Obviously, that''s ridiculous.

Your logic is precisely *why* I think children are special.

An adult can change their situation. A child, for the most part, can not.

On your second point, I completely concur. Society is imperfect. Deal with it. At the end of the day, is it really THAT big of a deal that a child is mis-behaving? I''ve got more important things to deal with that I CAN control. In Mara''s situation, I would imagine people not being happy. But, really "your children are making me sick" - can anyone say "drama queen?"

Funny of my best friends, only one tried to have children. The others were on birth control not sure of wanting kids. Then - oops! Of the two I am thinking about - one wanted another child. The other had another "oops!". Interesting that they all know that I have a special relationship to their children that couples with children can not. It''s a love we have discussed in the metaphysical. Not as a mother''s love; but, as a family love.

I wanted children shortly after we were married. Hubby wanted to wait. During that time, I started two careers and enjoyed being "our family". Also, I realized what a commitement, life change, soul split, etc. having children is. Plus, I know more as an older adult - you have far less of that "I''m not invinceable view of life." The older you are the more you can examine your situation. In my 20''s I didn''t think about the possiblity of a passed on genetic disease. I was too close to the sitution to not understand the ramifications of having a child and losing it. It''s a pill more readily swallowed by the young. And, as crazy as it may sound, the nurturing mother side was being fulfilled with nurturing my dogs as immediate family & then the extended family of my friends children & family.

 

[jellybean]

Date: 8/3/2005 1:08:30 AM
Author: AChiOAlumna

Date: 8/3/2005 12:20:14 AM
Author: MrsFrk
It is such a different world now- for people who began their families when it was possible to buy a home, a decent car, take annual vacations, AND have only one parent work, it can be puzzling as to why the heck younger people are struggling so with the decision to start a family.

You make a good point MrsFrk. My parents married in their VERY early 20s. My dad was able to work full time and my mom was a SAHM when I was born. She stayed at home until my sister was in school and then was only P/T to be home when my sister came home. Once I got my driver''s license and could pick my sister up from school, she went back to work F/T. They bought their 1st home in 1973.

Since then, many children are raised to go to college first, establish themselves and then get married. So while my parents were 20 and 22 respectively, today''s youth do not consider marriage until mid- to late-20s and even later. With the economy also overinflated, it''s harder to have SAHMs (although I commend those who can do it!). All my friends who have children have to work...I only know of one acquaintance who has been able to SAH as she has 4 young children and daycare would end up sucking up her entire paycheck if she worked, so it''s easier for her to SAH.

My parents expected us to go to college...there was no question upon graduating high school. We were to find careers, make ourselves independent and start our own lives. I think for us (my sister is a purposeful DINK as well), our career-orientation goals and the rewards we cherish that go with it overtook our desires to have children. I love kids and play with my friends'' children every chance I get, but I don''t regret (right now) not having my own.

I too (as my friends were) was expected to go to college, have or start a career, then get married. I think AChiOAlum said it well that to many, the goals and rewards weigh heavier than the desire to have kids. And I totally respect that. Many of my friends that don''t have kids just aren''t ready to "give up" their current lifestyle. Change is very hard for most people, and the older you get, the harder it is to change. I''m not saying this is why everyone choses not to have children - just my circle of friends.

I look at things a bit differently. My husband and I were DINKs, now we have two todders. It was probably a lot easier to stay a DINK then to become a parent. Sure I miss being able to do the things and have the spontineity we once had. It has been a HUGE adjustment being a mostly-SAHM (I work part-time) and trying to raise good children. Many days I feel overwhelmed. I know I can''t have it all. But, at the end of the day, I realize how lucky I am to have these two little ones. For me, being a good parent is one of my goals. I personally get much more satisfaction teaching my daughter her colors than any career promotion could have provided.

My grandmother''s and even my mom''s generation was not raised with having career goals outside of having a family. I think this is why many people struggle with the issue of having kids or not. We were just raised completely differently. Had I thought I would have gotten married right out of high school (like my mom and grandmother) and had all my kids before the age of 30, then I probably wouldn''t have had a hard time adjusting to my new role. My grandmother once said she didn''t envy our generation. She said we have too many choices, and that can make life a lot harder.

Nowadays, it is hard for many families to make ends meet on one income. I am fortunate we are able to have me work only part time. Yes, we made that choice knowing we wouldn''t be able to put away as much money for retirement or for vacations or just to have more fun money. It was a hard decision, one we did not take lightly.

 

[MissAva]

Date: 8/3/2005 11:08:38 AM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 8/3/2005 9:32:45 AM
Author: icekid

I do, however, not agree w/ the idea that children are not more ''special'' than the average adult. You''re talking about someone who is completely helpless. They require protection. They require nurturing. They are unlimited possibility. I fully expect to make an impact on this earth as a physician. But I won''t pretend that ''I could be anything''- not anymore!

I also do not think it is anyone''s RIGHT to have a nice dinner out without children around. Don''t get me wrong, when I go out to dinner with my bf I would be absolutely annoyed as well if someone was not controlling their unruly children. However, they have as much a right to exist there as I do. The only place you have the right to exist to YOUR expectations is your home. To me, it''s the same thing as me deciding that the patron next to me is fat and ugly, and I don''t want them to interrupt my dinner. Obviously, that''s ridiculous.

Your logic is precisely *why* I think children are special.

An adult can change their situation. A child, for the most part, can not.

On your second point, I completely concur. Society is imperfect. Deal with it. At the end of the day, is it really THAT big of a deal that a child is mis-behaving? I''ve got more important things to deal with that I CAN control. In Mara''s situation, I would imagine people not being happy. But, really ''your children are making me sick'' - can anyone say ''drama queen?''

Funny of my best friends, only one tried to have children. The others were on birth control not sure of wanting kids. Then - oops! Of the two I am thinking about - one wanted another child. The other had another ''oops!''. Interesting that they all know that I have a special relationship to their children that couples with children can not. It''s a love we have discussed in the metaphysical. Not as a mother''s love; but, as a family love.

I wanted children shortly after we were married. Hubby wanted to wait. During that time, I started two careers and enjoyed being ''our family''. Also, I realized what a commitement, life change, soul split, etc. having children is. Plus, I know more as an older adult - you have far less of that ''I''m not invinceable view of life.'' The older you are the more you can examine your situation. In my 20''s I didn''t think about the possiblity of a passed on genetic disease. I was too close to the sitution to not understand the ramifications of having a child and losing it. It''s a pill more readily swallowed by the young. And, as crazy as it may sound, the nurturing mother side was being fulfilled with nurturing my dogs as immediate family & then the extended family of my friends children & family.

Honestly if someone told me that my child or younger sibling was making them sick they would need a toon of proof to back it up or they would in for quite the tounge lashing.
As for the dog in resturant how rude! A ton of people are afraid and allergic to dogs I cannot imagine thinking that my dog had the right to be anywhere. But then I dont fequent those sorts of places I find them not to be to my liking.
I dont know if I will have children. I am 22 and I tend to feel like my parents had their own grandkids by having a 20 year gap between oldest and youngest. But I love my little sister and I burst and beam with pride everytime she learns a new math table or the first time she was able to dive to the bottom of the pool, a whopping 14 feet. But I am a loner at times and I like to go for long walks and not say anything. There are days when I want so much to have a little and then others...like after an overnight babysitting job where I think I would rather shoot off my toes.
I still think that children are a reflection of their parents, if you do a good job they will be polite and well mannered. My sister is four and we have taken her out to place since she was about 20-26 months. She has never had a temper tantrum in public,though I cant remember any in private either, and is generally well behaved. The only place we have to tell her to lower her voice is the zoo. She just gets soo excited when she sees the animals, then again I personally think zoos are for kids.

 

[Mara]

F&I...well there was definitely some sort of 'drama queen' going on...

I wanted to clarify also that the dog was not in the restaurant. It was an outside patio that was very large and not filled at all and the dog and table occupants were in the farthest corner to the street...and it was something like a 10 lb small quiet dog. While I wouldn't bring a 100lb dog to an outdoor patio restaurant place...a small dog is IMO far from 'rude'. If the restaurant allows dogs on it's outside street patio, much like it allows unruly children, who am I to judge?

 

[fire&ice]

I do have an unruly dog story. We did a show & while setting up all children behaved well around fragile expensive stuff. The "guys" across the way had a chiahra (sp) dressed in a little sweater. This thing was all over the place humping things and just being obnoxious (keep in mind I LOVE dogs). The dog took a smelly crap right in front of our booth. "Parents" just said "oh, whatever the name, we don''t do that here". I thought that was the end of the appearance of this dog. Well, the dog stuck around the ENTIRE weekend. Finally, disgusted after the second poop, we all started taking bets as to when and where the dog would take a crap again.

 

[moremoremore]

ROTFL!!!!!!!!
After law school, desperate to work, I took a job that was run out of a private home...The boss had this ugly small poodle who would poop in the kitchen right next to the conference room. It was a real treat. The woman ref'd to her dog like it was a real child. That's not the frightening part. She actually expected the dog to answer her I think LOLOL... And he would yell at the dog as if it could understand all of her instructions. Dogs are smart, they are not *that* smart..

But then again, maybe I just hated the dog.

I'm convinced it actually tried to kill me several times.

I'm not even kidding, really. Once it tried to trip me and make me fall down the stairs...

 

[MrsFrk]

Not a dog, but a cat story.
I used to do catering, and I worked a private dinner party at a very, very ritzy home in Atherton (a very wealthy enclave here in NorCal).
This was an ESTATE, an enormous 12,000 sq foot home. All the bigwigs of the region were there, a few state Senators.

The couple that owned the home had 2 spoiled cats that ran the joint.
While we were preparing and arranging the food, the cats were wandering around the counters, dipping their paws in the food. Gross.
I''m a cat lover, but come on.
We kept moving the cats onto the floor...at one point the lady of the house saw us doing so, and read us the riot act for ''abusing'' her cats. So the cats continued dipping their germy paws in all the food.

One of the perks of this job was all the free grub, but none of us would touch the food after that.

 

[MrsFrk]

All of the children that I take care of are "restaurant trained". Stay in your seat, inside voices, eat what's in front of you. I don't expect children to be adult like, but I do expect them to behave themselves. What's interesting is that one of them is a frickin' holy terror in restaurants with her parents, I have taken her out dozens of times, never had a problem.

I used to manage restaurants, and I cannot count how many times I had to tell parents to corral their children. We had a big open kitchen with a wood fire, lots of boiling hot liquids, parents would not pay attention and OF COURSE the first thing a toddler is going to do is head towards the fire.

Same thing when we go to the park. People set their kids loose, go sit on a bench and yap with their pals, and when someone takes a tumble off of the slide, the kid is going off like an air raid siren, and I'm the one who has to make sure everyone is breathing, they come tearing over and shriek "WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO MY SON!!!".

As previously mentioned, it's easy to become a parent...being a GOOD parent is a lotta work. I highly respect and am in awe of good parents. There's just too many of the other kind.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/3/2005 9:32:45 AM
Author: icekid

I also do not think it is anyone's RIGHT to have a nice dinner out without children around. Don't get me wrong, when I go out to dinner with my bf I would be absolutely annoyed as well if someone was not controlling their unruly children. However, they have as much a right to exist there as I do.

I respect that this is your viewpoint, but I somewhat disagree.

Speaking only for myself.......I don't expect to have a nice dinner without children *around*. I don't mind if they are around. I don't mind if they are around and boisterous in a family-style restaurant. I *do* mind if they are boisterous and disruptive to other diners' in a more refined dinner setting and their parents take positively no corrective action whatsoever.

Please know that my aversion to disruption isn't limited to children. It would be equally distasteful to me if an obviously inebriated patron became combative and disruptive in an intimate dinner setting as well.

Date: 8/3/2005 9:32:45 AM
Author: icekid

The only place you have the right to exist to YOUR expectations is your home. To me, it's the same thing as me deciding that the patron next to me is fat and ugly, and I don't want them to interrupt my dinner. Obviously, that's ridiculous.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. There used to be a day......and it wasn't that long ago......that mmebers of society could all live within a common courtesy set of manners and co-exist peacefully with each other in a public setting. There isn't any reason that same expectation shouldn't or couldn't be met today. People are just as capable now as they were in my parents' day. What has changed is how selfish and only-for-themselves everyone has become.....adults and children alike.

When I leave my house and go into public, I try to be reasonably respectful of others around me and extend basic common courtesies, and I expect the same in kind. By definition, society means a group of humans with shared institutions, a common culture, and a participation in charateristic relationships. In other words, if you want to be out among other people, you should extend common courtesies that define the society.....play nice, so to speak. If that notion is distasteful, then it is the individual who wants to refrain from common courtesies that should stay home where there are no such expectations.

Honestly, the fat/ugly correlation makes no sense. Physical attributes are not intrusive, and you can choose to look in another direction if it so bothers you. I can choose to look away from the disruptive patron--whether adult or child--and that won't change the fact that he is loud and disruptive. I think it's a ridiculous suggestion that someone's physical attributes could be anywhere near infringing on one's dining experience. Behavior can be modified; appearance cannot always be modified. Appearance is also subjective....what you find ugly, I may not. Socially acceptable behavior is not as subjective; most people are aware of basic common courtesy behavior requirements.

 

[LadyluvsLuxury]

WOW! What a loaded thread! I have to agree with aljdewey completely about the benefits of not having children not just being about material goods. Hubby and I are DINKS and have been together for a while now so we have had quite some "us" time, but everytime I think about all the things we do at the drop of dime and how that would greatly be impacted, if not non-existent, with a child it just reaffirms our decision not to have any. Can I absolutely say we would never have children? Absolutely not but I have never felt even a pang of desire (nor has hubby) to have them. What I find interesting is that aside from one lady on my job (who has four children 2, 4, 6, 8, she works and hubby stays at home), everyone else with children always tells me that hubby and I are doing the right thing, and that although they would not trade their children for the world, if they had to do it over again they would not have them

. Truly when I started reading this thread I anticipated hearing more of that, but I can of course relate to the ones (family members mainly) who NAG us about when we are having them. Matter of fact my mother today told me she purchased some toy for her future grandchildren

I told her she could send it b/c she already has two (Caeser and Titan my Poms and babies!

). She did not find that too amusing but in the end to each their own!

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/4/2005 9:14:34 PM
Author: LadyluvsLuxury

What I find interesting is that aside from one lady on my job (who has four children 2, 4, 6, 8, she works and hubby stays at home), everyone else with children always tells me that hubby and I are doing the right thing, and that although they would not trade their children for the world, if they had to do it over again they would not have them

.

I find that many people say that to me, too. There are a number of folks who don''t, mind you.....I work with many folks who have relished their time as parents and would do it over again, and to them, I say *magnificent*! Those are the types of folks who absolutely should be parents; they are good at it, and they enjoy it. You couldn''t ask for more in a parent.

But it does amaze me how many people also say "if I had it to do over again, I''d do things differently and not have children", and I can understand why. It''s truly a lifelong job. You don''t automatically stop worrying about them when you stop paying for them. Gosh, I''m about to turn 40, and my mom *still* worries about me when I make the 1.5 hour drive home from her house. Most parents relate that children are the single biggest strain on a marriage and how much work they are. I applaud those folks who do it.

It doesn''t really surprise me much that people are more thoughtful about it, given the times. My parents were children of Depression-era parents. The prevaling outlook during that period was "life is hard no matter what", so their children (my parents'' era) didn''t question, as someone else said. It was pretty much the expected thing to do....you started a family. As mentioned before, there were many other career/economic/religious factors at play, too. As times have changed, so too have attitudes regarding the need to populate.

 

[widget]

Author: aljdewey


But it does amaze me how many people also say 'if I had it to do over again, I'd do things differently and not have children',

Ask them again after the children are gone and they're older and perhaps retired...they might see it differently.

It's truly a lifelong job.... and my mom *still* worries about me when I make the 1.5 hour drive home from her house.

I think that when you're older, and perhaps alone, it can be nice to have someone to worry about...

widget
.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/4/2005 10:32:18 PM
Author: widget

Author: aljdewey


But it does amaze me how many people also say 'if I had it to do over again, I'd do things differently and not have children',

Ask them again after the children are gone and they're older and perhaps retired...they might see it differently.

Yes, they might.....and they might not. They might, but it's not a given.

(Incidentally, three of the people in that group I mentioned above in my post are people whose children are gone. Two are a year away from retirement; one's been retired three years. ) They love their kids, to be sure....but that doesn't mean they'd make the same choices again if given the chance.

It's truly a lifelong job.... and my mom *still* worries about me when I make the 1.5 hour drive home from her house.

I think that when you're older, and perhaps alone, it can be nice to have someone to worry about...

Oh, of course, and I agree.....but I don't think that's mutually exclusive to being one's own child. And sometimes, it can be less than nice to have someone to worry about. My best friend from high school has a brother who still has a raging drug problem at 38. Believe me when I tell you her dad would welcome the chance to worry about him a little less.

I really congratulate you that you seem to relish your children. I just get the feeling that your experience keeps you from acknowledging that others might not feel similarly. It seems that acknowledging some people might feel differently would be perceived as a slight to your experience, and I don't think that's true at all. There are some folks who will regret the decision to be childless; there are others who will regret the decision to become parents.

The fact that the latter group feels that way isn't a knock on those of you who had children......really, it isn't. Some people relished parenthood; others didn't. It sometimes seems that the mere acknowledgment of that is seen as an insult to those who relished children. I'm not sure why that is; but it shouldn't be.

Maybe it would be better to say this: the fact that people would choose a different path (choose not to have children) shouldn't be interpreted as a put-down of the path they did choose (to be parents), and it shouldn't be considered a put-down to those who WOULD choose the same path (to be parents) again.

 

[Dancing Fire]

widget
believe me,you will never be able to convince the DINKs on here, the good side of having childrens. i don''t think they will know if they make the right decision, until they get older. today''s DINKs believe in freedom. get up and go anywhere,anytime, when ever they want to. sure...i remember how it was

my friends were out having fun and i had to stay home and change diapers.i''m the youngest among my friends but my kids are the oldest b/c they decide to have kids later on in life.i wouldn''t want to trade places with them right now.

 

[widget]

I''m a little surprised people feel the need to "argue" with my comments.

My few contributions to this thread have not been aimed at "putting down" others'' choices, or to convince anyone of anything. I think I have acknowledged that others feel differently. I only wanted to lend my personal "geriatric perspective" to the conversation...

"At the end of your life you will never regret not having passed one more test, not winning one more verdict, or not having closed one more deal. You will regret time not spent with a husband, a child, a friend, a parent." (Barbara Bush speaking at Wellesley Commencement, 1990)

I''m older...my husband is gone, my parents are gone, my friends are scattered.
But I am still connected to my children.

I''ve said it before: It is very possible that had I had the choices young people have today, I wouldn''t have had any kids. But for me, at this time in my life, I am very grateful that I did.

widget

 

[MrsFrk]

Date: 8/5/2005 8:40:50 AM
Author: widget
I''m a little surprised people feel the need to ''argue'' with my comments.


My few contributions to this thread have not been aimed at ''putting down'' others'' choices, or to convince anyone of anything. I think I have acknowledged that others feel differently. I only wanted to lend my personal ''geriatric perspective'' to the conversation...


''At the end of your life you will never regret not having passed one more test, not winning one more verdict, or not having closed one more deal. You will regret time not spent with a husband, a child, a friend, a parent.'' (Barbara Bush speaking at Wellesley Commencement, 1990)


I''m older...my husband is gone, my parents are gone, my friends are scattered.

But I am still connected to my children.


I''ve said it before: It is very possible that had I had the choices young people have today, I wouldn''t have had any kids. But for me, at this time in my life, I am very grateful that I did.


widget

Widget, I respect your perspective. If my husband and I hadn''t had to work so dang hard for so long to reach a non-paycheck to paycheck existence, we possibly would be reaching a different decision regarding children. But life happens, and you make do. If I was born into more supportive family structure (it''s just me and my mom and my sis, and they are no help at all. Ditto for my husband), and wasn''t on my own from age 14- starting a family probably would''ve been a no-brainer.

Dancingfire, with all due respect- this is far more complicated a decision for women. I must reiterate that my decision to remain a DINK has NOTHING to do with not liking children. I have never implied that having children is a mistake or not a worthy endeavor. I find your contributions to this discussion very inflammatory and derisive, not constructive at all.