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Anti Semitism....

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voce

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I'm also disheartened by the persistence of anti-Semitism in many parts of the world. But Missy, in East Asia Jews are very well-regarded. I'm sure this has to do with the veneration of scholarship and the many contributions Jewish scientists have made to the world (and the number of Nobel prize that went to Jews).

In China in particular, many people aspire to wealth and prominence, which they associate with the Jews. AIG is headquartered in Shanghai, and I believe that's because in the 1920s and 1930s, Shanghai was a safe haven for Jews fleeing anti-Semitic Europe. Jews hold an elevated status in Chinese intellectuals' minds because the Jewish contributions to the world are outsized, compared to the size of the Jewish population in the world.

About the red triangle...

It may well be that the original intent of using that symbol was not anti-Semitic, but after it had been pointed out specifically, a decent organization would have chosen another symbol, out of respect for the sensitivities of people who have a good reason to be wary. To persist in using such a symbol despite the unpleasant associations, putting it mildly, is to flaunt callous disregard and disrespect for the suffering of those in the Holocaust. @Musia, I know you don't see it, but just because you or I don't see something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I wish you would stop defending the Trump administration that's destroying good things about America. But that's a topic more suited for another thread.
 

Musia

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It may well be that the original intent of using that symbol was not anti-Semitic, but after it had been pointed out specifically, a decent organization would have chosen another symbol, out of respect for the sensitivities of people who have a good reason to be wary. To persist in using such a symbol despite the unpleasant associations, putting it mildly, is to flaunt callous disregard and disrespect for the suffering of those in the Holocaust.

Sorry, I think you just don't understand the situation correctly. To persist in using such a symbol despite the unpleasant associations, putting it mildly, is to flaunt callous disregard and disrespect for the suffering of those in the Holocaust. Maybe I am missing something here. Who persisted on using such a symbol in its mild form? Me or Trump??? We were discussing this unfortunate triangle long time ago, in my opinion, as well as in some other people opinions it was just a coincidence and Trump's ads were removed immediately, and no one persisted in using such a symbol despite the unpleasant associations. I just don't understand why you want me to start this discussion again. What is the point? I will not change my opinion, and I am not an anti-Semite. :confused: I am not using red triangles, and Trump's campaign stopped using it right away (they were removed by FB and no one insisted on continuing to use them).

Regarding Jews in China. There were initially 12 tribes of Israel. 10 become lost forever. It is believed that one of the ten tribes settled in China. They later assimilated, Jews were marrying Chinese and finally dissolved (if it is a right word). Disappeared.
Here is an interesting article, you may want to read. http://www.jewsofchina.org/the-lost...ous area of,numbers about 250 thousand people.
Please read this. Hate and enmity existed between the Chinese and this tribe for a long time. They lived independently until the middle of the 18th century when they became part of the general population to earn more freedom. The religious pressure from the Chinese, the spread of Christianity, and the influence of intermarriage caused the Chiang tribe to generally and greatly give up their special monotheistic way of life.
 

Musia

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The language of the Chiang tribe had been forgotten and they had also lost their ancient script. Today they speak Chinese.
They themselves see themselves as immigrants from the west who reached this area after a journey of three years three months. The Chinese treated them as Barbarians, while Chiang people related to the Chinese as idol worshipers.
 

Musia

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It may well be that the original intent of using that symbol was not anti-Semitic

My opinion is that it was just a coincidence.
 

Musia

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@missy sorry for posting so much here today. I don't want any heated discussions here. But this is another educational article from a Jewish website. http://www.jewsofchina.org/a-history-of-the-jews-in-shanghai @voce I hope you won't mind reading it.

During the first five years of Nazi persecution, from 1933 to 1938, about 130,000 of the 525,000 Jews living in Germany left the country. Through the end of 1937, however, only about 300 Jewish refugees had arrived in Shanghai. Michael Blumenthal, who later became Secretary of the Treasury under President Jimmy Carter, had this to say about the choices refugees faced:
It was sort of a hierarchy of things. If you went to the United States, that was a good thing. If you went to England that was a good thing. If you went to another European country, it was fine, to Holland, to France, all that was good. If you went to New Zealand and to Australia and then to Canada, that was good. There were countries that were considered to be okay. Brazil was okay, Argentina and Uruguay were okay, maybe Chile. There were countries that were considered to be not so okay, Paraguay and Bolivia, because they were considered to be primitive countries in which it was difficult to make a living, where a European wouldn’t be happy. Dominican Republic, Panama, certain Central American countries were considered to be semi-desperation countries you went to. And the worst place was Shanghai.
The level of desperation of German Jews was not yet great enough to overcome their disinterest in moving to China.


Quite a contrary to what you wrote, sorry. If you can point what a province in China was a safe heaven for Jews to come, I would love to read more information and educate myself further.
From the same article No nation welcomed Jewish refugees; anti-Semitism was a worldwide disease.
 
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voce

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Wow @Musia OK. I'm not following the red triangle and never have, really. I just know that people who support Trump have been 'Mericasplaining that the symbol isn't anti-Semitic, refusing to acknowledge it's anti-Semitic, on locked PS threads. There would be some people in the world for whom a six pointed star or a crescent moon and a star have no religious association. That doesn't mean those symbols aren't representative of Judiasm and Islam. I am not accusing you of using that symbol or being an anti-Semite. You have already said plenty of times you don't see things that way.

I did not know about the Chiang tribe, and I know that the Chinese have historically been very ethnocentric. They've a long memory of barbarian tribes raiding their lands from the north and the west. A long history of pressuring minority tribes to assimilate. Indeed, for a long stretch of ancient history, the Chinese were more accomplished than any other culture, so they thought themselves as superior.

It's only the modern attitudes towards Jews I'm commenting on. The respect of modern Chinese for Jews came only after Chinese people became well educated in learning about Western history, philosophy, and science.

And with all due respect, that link you provided does not say they were persecuted in Shanghai. I read it. It's probably very true that China/Shanghai was the last choice for those refugees. It's the most remote, alien place for somebody who grew up in Europe to get accustomed to. Refugees probably had relatives in other European and American countries they didn't want to get separated from. The Chinese language is regarded widely, even by Europeans who speak five or more languages, to be the most difficult to learn. Of COURSE they were the least eager to go to China. But once there, despite other difficulties, they were not persecuted, and they were allowed to return to their native countries or go on to emigrate to Israel.

There is a course on Coursera on the modern Jewish diaspora in China. The Jews are well-regarded in China today. This doesn't mean they were never discriminated on in ancient China, but the discrimination was not different from what any other whites would've been facing. I also acknowledge that the Chiang tribe probably face discrimination today, but the Chinese wouldn't recognize them as Jewish, as they've assimilated too much.

 
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Musia

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Wow @Musia OK. I'm not following the red triangle and never have, really. I just know that people who support Trump have been 'Mericasplaining that the symbol isn't anti-Semitic, refusing to acknowledge it's anti-Semitic, on locked PS threads. There would be some people in the world for whom a six pointed star or a crescent moon and a star have no religious association. That doesn't mean those symbols aren't representative of Judiasm and Islam. I am not accusing you of using that symbol or being an anti-Semite. You have already said plenty of times you don't see things that way.

I did not know about the Chiang tribe, and I know that the Chinese have historically been very ethnocentric. They've a long memory of barbarian tribes raiding their lands from the north and the west. A long history of pressuring minority tribes to assimilate. Indeed, for a long stretch of ancient history, the Chinese were more accomplished than any other culture, so they thought themselves as superior.

It's only the modern attitudes towards Jews I'm commenting on. The respect of modern Chinese for Jews came only after Chinese people became well educated in learning about Western history, philosophy, and science.

And with all due respect, that link you provided does not say they were persecuted in Shanghai. I read it. It's probably very true that China/Shanghai was the last choice for those refugees. It's the most remote, alien place for somebody who grew up in Europe to get accustomed to. Refugees probably had relatives in other European and American countries they didn't want to get separated from. The Chinese language is regarded widely, even by Europeans who speak five or more languages, to be the most difficult to learn. Of COURSE they were the least eager to go to China. But once there, despite other difficulties, they were not persecuted, and they were allowed to return to their native countries or go on to emigrate to Israel.

There is a course on Coursera on the modern Jewish diaspora in China. The Jews are well-regarded in China today. This doesn't mean they were never discriminated on in ancient China, but the discrimination was not different from what any other whites would've been facing. I also acknowledge that the Chiang tribe probably face discrimination today, but the Chinese wouldn't recognize them as Jewish, as they've assimilated too much.


Thank you for your kind and calm response. I will read Wikipedia article a little later. But when it comes to anti-Semitism, I prefer to check Jewish sources, not secular. But I promise I will read the article you mentioned. I have a book I bought on a flee market many years ago (maybe 15) and never found a time to read it. I just checked the book on Amazon, it may be very interesting for me to read now. Will go to garage and get it from a box. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008F4NTHO/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Will continue later.
 

voce

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Screenshot_20200709-081812.png
Yes, while you are checking Jews' experiences, to disregard the secular sources would be to miss out on quotes indicating the Chinese attitude to Jews. The quote I've screenshotted from the Wikipedia article is from Sun Yat-sen, whose Republic of China did not last, but regardless of Mao Zedong's regime or Chiang Kai-Shek's regime, the Jews were not persecuted in 20th century China, and Chinese of all political persuasions still do admire the Jewish people for all they've accomplished.
 

Musia

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Great to hear @voce, of course I will read an entire article, just didn't have a time, I am having another busy morning. Allow me to explain something about assimilation of Jews in any county, not only in China. Anyway it is a shame that this thread is only 5 pages short while others full of political debates are much longer. Hope I am not wasting much of your time.
There are 2 laws the religious Jewish people have to obey. One is a Jewish law (Talmudic Law or halakha) and the other is the Law or Laws of the country they live in currently. Jewish law and the laws of the State of Israel are not the same. According to a secular law every Jew may marry any person he/she wants to. There are homosexuals among Jewish people and transgenders too (one of them is a conservative and is one of my favorite persons to follow on-line). By Jewish law it is prohibited to marry non-Jew. Not because religious Jews are racists, but because Talmud as well as Talmudic sages wanted Jewish population to be preserved. It is a matter of survival of Jewish nation. It is extremely rare that if Jew marries non-Jew, the spouse will convert to Judaism and raise children to become devoted Jews. Usually it is quite an opposite. Assimilation takes place.
Speaking Chinese is a great thing for any person in any country. Assimilation of Jewish people is a really bad thing according to the Jewish law. You are not a Jew if your mother is not a Jew. So the more Jewish people marry non-Jews, the less Jews remains on our planet. By the law of Russian Empire my maternal grandpa was 50% Jew or half Jew. By Jewish law he was 100% Jew since his mother was Jewish. If he would marry a beautiful Jewish girl (they are all beautiful to me!), my mom would be a Jew and then I would be a Jew too regardless of who my father was. But she wasn't since he married a Ukrainian-Slavic girl. That's how my mom who was raised in the USSR, grew up to be an anti-Semite. That's why, even if I didn't like my mother calling some of my childhood friends filthy Jews, I myself grew up to be suspicious of Jews. In my opinion they were enemies of my country and anti-communists. And I believed in Communism! I left Ukraine as a 50% anti-Semite and I became 150% anti-anti-Semite here in the USA. I educated myself and I really am ashamed of my past and my mom's anti-Semitism is another thing I will ever forget or forgive. She looked 100% Jewish, her Jewish coworkers always thought she was one of them. I remember my teacher had been harassing me in front of the entire class on several occasions and demanding me to admit that my mom was a Jew. But at home my mom expressed extreme hatred toward her nice coworkers. That was a very-very bad thing to do. She also loved to be pretending she was the greatest mother on Earth, but at home I suffered from severe emotional and physical abuse. I really wish my maternal grandma was Jewish, not Slavic. She was a sweet and a kind woman, I must admit and I loved her a lot. But my grandpa has always been my very favorite person in the whole Universe and is my absolutely favorite Jew. He used many Yiddish words, I thought they were his own creations since he had an exceptional sense of humor but later I figured out they were Yiddish words he inherited from his mother. His mother tongue was Yiddish. Just like Rabbi Akiva I started my Jewish studies at the age of 40, but of course, it is the only thing we have in common. Hope I may be forgiven by Jewish community here on PS for my past mistakes.

I checked all boxes in my garage but didn't found "Peony" book unfortunately. But I am going to order a used one from eBay and read it. The author's name being Pearl S. Buck sounded like a Jewish one to me but she wasn't a Jew.
 
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Musia

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I believe that's because in the 1920s and 1930s, Shanghai was a safe haven for Jews fleeing anti-Semitic Europe

It's only the modern attitudes towards Jews I'm commenting on. The respect of modern Chinese for Jews came only after Chinese people became well educated in learning about Western history, philosophy, and science.

I am just confused now.:confused::confused::confused: And please, the next time someone on PS defends Trump, just report that person to Admins. It is called a discrimination based on political views.

I wish you would stop defending the Trump administration that's destroying good things about America. But that's a topic more suited for another thread.
 

voce

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I am just confused now.:confused::confused::confused: And please, the next time someone on PS defends Trump, just report that person to Admins. It is called a discrimination based on political views.

Musia, you're confusing me as much as yourself. I don't know why you have strung these quotes together. I suggest we just stop and don't detail this thread.

I personally think Jewish culture is great and should be celebrated, not used to negatively stereotype, which is something I think you and I can both agree on. Let's just leave it at that.
 

Musia

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Musia, you're confusing me as much as yourself. I don't know why you have strung these quotes together.

They are your words and these 2 statements contradict each other. Safe heaven in 20th and 30th vs only the modern attitudes towards Jews I'm commenting on. I didn't start. Good thing I have been following this thread so I received an e-mail alarm the firs thing in the morning. I think we can ask someone to start a separate thread for celebrating a great Jewish culture. Here we are talking about ugly anti-Semitism, there is nothing to celebrate. I don't think I deserved mentioning my name in this thread one more time. Unless now some one wants to clarify something I posted today.
Sadly
Anti semitism infects every part of this world still.

Modern China including IMHO. Now let's stop.
 

voce

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They are your words and these 2 statements contradict each other. Safe heaven in 20th and 30th vs only the modern attitudes towards Jews I'm commenting on. I didn't start. Good thing I have been following this thread so I received an e-mail alarm the firs thing in the morning. I think we can ask someone to start a separate thread for celebrating a great Jewish culture. Here we are talking about ugly anti-Semitism, there is nothing to celebrate. I don't think I deserved mentioning my name in this thread one more time. Unless now some one wants to clarify something I posted today.
Sadly


Modern China including IMHO. Now let's stop.

Oh. Those statements don't conflict. Affluent Chinese people were studying abroad and getting Western education after 1900. Those who did respected the Jewish people. Those who didn't get Western educations were ignorant and didn't really know Jew from German. Hard to be racist against an ethnic group you didn't know exists. But the Chinese who did get Western educations were like Sun Yat-sen and saw themselves as a group similarly oppressed by strong European powers. Modern Chinese history begins in 1911, after the imperial dynasty was overthrown. That doesn't mean modern life for the majority of it's citizens, but it well precedes the 1920s and 1930s that saw a small fraction of Jewish refugees into China.

I keep forgetting Chinese history is one of the last things many people bother to learn or actually want to learn about, so I'll shut up. Ignorance is bliss, after all.
 

Daisys and Diamonds

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Here are some books for children and young adults to read about Holocaust. https://www.readbrightly.com/childrens-books-to-remember-the-holocaust/
Actually, there are many books for kids on Amazon on this subject.

There are some excellent things on netflex right now
Every new generation must be taught about what happened and why it must never happen again
I don't remember anyone ever telling me, i must have just watched things on tv from an early age - old railway cattle waggons have always scared me since i was a wee girl
 

partgypsy

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Sorry for this slight threadjack. This youtube video was created in 2017 after Charlottesville. It doesn't speak directly to anti semitism but about fascism. Unfortunately, timely then as it is now.
 

Daisys and Diamonds

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Who on earth thought this was a good idea :x2

Fast fashion retailer Shein sold a pendant necklace with a swastika charm on its website
Rachel E. Greenspan
Jul 10, 2020, 8:34 AM
Snapchat

shein swastika necklace

A screenshot of the necklace for sale on online clothing retailer Shein's website. Shein.co.uk
  • Online fast fashion retailer Shein previously offered a pendant necklace with a "swastika" charm.
  • The product was removed from the website, a representative for Shein confirmed to Insider.
  • The representative said the "necklace is a Buddhist swastika which has symbolized spirituality and good fortune for more than a thousand years," adding that "because we understand the two symbols can be confused, and one is highly offensive, we have removed the product from our site."
  • Multiple Twitter users had called out the brand for its use of the symbol.
  • Shein recently faced criticism for selling Islamic prayer mats under the title of "decorative rugs," and apologized in a statement posted on Instagram.
  • Visit Insider's homepage for more stories.

Online clothing retailer Shein, known for its trendy and cheap fast-fashion, has been selling a gold-colored swastika pendant necklace.
As of Thursday afternoon, the product, called the "Metal Pendant Necklace," appeared among the website's jewelry offerings. The accessory with Nazi symbolism retailed for $2.50. When Insider navigated to the item's information, an error message appeared on the page, and the "add to cart" button yielded the words "Sold Out."
swastika necklace shein

The swastika necklace was "sold out," as of Thursday afternoon. Shein.co.uk
The exact direction of the symbol used in the necklace is a mirrored variation of the swastika — a Sanskrit word that means "well-being" — that is based in Buddhism and is a symbol for peace and luck, Quartz reported. Adolf Hitler commandeered the symbol as the Nazi party's main emblem, changing the symbol's meaning well beyond World War II.
Some tweets that called out the item included screenshots showing that the word "swastika" was part of the product name, but Insider could not independently verify this information. At press time, soon after multiple Twitter users tweeted about the necklace, a representative for Shein confirmed that the item has been removed.

The representative told Insider in a statement that "the necklace is a Buddhist swastika which has symbolized spirituality and good fortune for more than a thousand years." The representative added that because of the direction of the symbol, it was not the Nazi swastika. "However, because we understand the two symbols can be confused, and one is highly offensive, we have removed the product from our site."
 

Musia

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I hate both, the swastika and the star. The swastika (oriented differently) came from Buddhism indeed. Hitler borrowed (I don't know the right word) the symbol since he thought that his race descended from the region. Some sort of high power (I don't want to know the details). I bought several volumes of works by Rudyard Kipling, 1930 edition, on eBay and they had swastika symbol stamped on the covering (listed pictures didn't show swastika). But it amazes as well as angers me that someone thinks it is OK to use the symbol nowadays after all that had happened.
 

missy

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Who on earth thought this was a good idea :x2

Fast fashion retailer Shein sold a pendant necklace with a swastika charm on its website
Rachel E. Greenspan
Jul 10, 2020, 8:34 AM
Snapchat

shein swastika necklace

A screenshot of the necklace for sale on online clothing retailer Shein's website. Shein.co.uk
  • Online fast fashion retailer Shein previously offered a pendant necklace with a "swastika" charm.
  • The product was removed from the website, a representative for Shein confirmed to Insider.
  • The representative said the "necklace is a Buddhist swastika which has symbolized spirituality and good fortune for more than a thousand years," adding that "because we understand the two symbols can be confused, and one is highly offensive, we have removed the product from our site."
  • Multiple Twitter users had called out the brand for its use of the symbol.
  • Shein recently faced criticism for selling Islamic prayer mats under the title of "decorative rugs," and apologized in a statement posted on Instagram.
  • Visit Insider's homepage for more stories.

Online clothing retailer Shein, known for its trendy and cheap fast-fashion, has been selling a gold-colored swastika pendant necklace.
As of Thursday afternoon, the product, called the "Metal Pendant Necklace," appeared among the website's jewelry offerings. The accessory with Nazi symbolism retailed for $2.50. When Insider navigated to the item's information, an error message appeared on the page, and the "add to cart" button yielded the words "Sold Out."
swastika necklace shein

The swastika necklace was "sold out," as of Thursday afternoon. Shein.co.uk
The exact direction of the symbol used in the necklace is a mirrored variation of the swastika — a Sanskrit word that means "well-being" — that is based in Buddhism and is a symbol for peace and luck, Quartz reported. Adolf Hitler commandeered the symbol as the Nazi party's main emblem, changing the symbol's meaning well beyond World War II.
Some tweets that called out the item included screenshots showing that the word "swastika" was part of the product name, but Insider could not independently verify this information. At press time, soon after multiple Twitter users tweeted about the necklace, a representative for Shein confirmed that the item has been removed.

The representative told Insider in a statement that "the necklace is a Buddhist swastika which has symbolized spirituality and good fortune for more than a thousand years." The representative added that because of the direction of the symbol, it was not the Nazi swastika. "However, because we understand the two symbols can be confused, and one is highly offensive, we have removed the product from our site."

Disgusting.

The Anti-Defamation League released an annual audit in May showing that anti-Semitic incidents had climbed to record levels, with more recorded in 2019 than in any year during the four decades the organization has been tracking them.

Yup. I stand by my thoughts regarding anti semitism. That it is, indeed, the last acceptable form of prejudice. Increasing at alarming rates all over the world.

Screen Shot 2020-07-28 at 7.00.26 AM.png





 

Maja

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More sad news about anti-semitism in the US-
ANTI-SEMITISM and Nick Cannon

I won’t link to them because they are easy to find, but another example of current anti-Semitism comes from the recent remarks by American celebrity Nick Cannon.

Although he is a highly-talented, industrious, and creative artist and businessman, he was fired from ViacomCBS because he did not quickly acknowledge the anti-Semitism of his remarks or show any remorse for them.

Cannon did not lose his job as a host at Fox’s “The Masked Singer”, and he was also offered an unspecified position by Sean “Diddy” Combs, founder of Revolt TV, who tweeted “We got your back…”

I saw in the news Cannon is now educating himself about Jewish communities by attending sessions at the Museum of Tolerance at the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. Cannon’s guest on the show in question, Professor Griff formerly of “Public Enemy” is not participating in the rehabilitation process, although he has a record of many years of hate speech against gays and Jews.
 

Musia

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Graffiti on the walls of a synagogue read “Free Palestine” and “f*** Israel.” A statue of Raoul Wallenberg, the Swedish diplomat who saved thousands of Hungarian Jews from the Nazis, was smeared with anti-Semitic slogans.

Along with the synagogues, Jewish-owned buildings and stores were defaced, in several cases also with anti-Semitic graffiti. The businesses were looted, too.
:x2
 

missy

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It will never end.



Almost every week there is something in the news about anti jewish attacks.



 

missy

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Are you familiar with this quote? It speaks volumes. Hate for any one group puts all at risk. IMO.

"
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."



hateforjews.jpg
 

Jambalaya

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This is all so, so terrible. Anti-Semitism makes me :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire: Like racism, it quite literally makes no sense. There is no rationale; it's nothing but pure hate.

I know that quote and I agree with it completely, Missy.
 

TooPatient

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A middle school kid who is the son of a friend's friend was in a rush. He and another kid bumped into each other. The other kid said, "Quit being so violent you f-ing Jew."

This is at least the second incident in that school district this week.
 
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