Anti Semitism....

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I saw that Bee Brisk had posted in the thread and went looking for her words. I guess they were removed. Must have pretty bad?

Well, I;ll give an update on my above post and story. After I posted and said I didn't know what more I could do about the anti-semitism and racism i experienced on these financial boards something came to me. I decided to write to Yahoo through their investor relations and pose the problem to them. I was very clear that I had filed a complaint with the anti-defamation league and wanted them to do something about their sites. I received no answer and thought it was a lost clause.

Within 2 weeks the whole format of the boards changed and the racist and anti-semetic posts were gone. What joy was felt.
There are still some who try to get the evil message across so occasionally i still have to chastise some jerk. Now we just have some jerks. I really think the contact to investor relations did it. I may be giving myself too much credit, but the coincidence is too great, I think. Mark Zucherberg made the same announcement a few weeks ago. He put it that there was too much hate posted on facebook and he was going to change t. Companies don't want this.

This week I began to write a brief history of my fathers Dutch family for my nieces. No one will know some of these things unless I tell them
1. My aunt married a Rajah from indonesia. She died in chidbirth and he raised the twin girls that she bore him. Forty Five yrs later she wanted to meet her Dutch family. They had a reunion, which my mother attended, and all were happy. My Indonesian cousin is a member of Parliment and looks Indonesian. I told my nieces they had brown cousins who were most likely muslims so be nice to everyone. (We aren't a very prejudice family, but I knew they didn't know they had a real relative with those characteristics.

2.When Europe entered the second world war my fathers youngest brother joined the armed forces and died in a concentration camp along with the many jews.

The moral of the story. Even when you can't think of what more you can do, think again.(I hope it was me)

Annette

 

[movie zombie]

good work!
sometimes it just takes one person.......and sometimes companies keep count of how many complaints they get before the correct a problem. either way i'm sure you contributed to an improvement in those forums.
unless we each are vigilant and stand up for what we believe in the world will become an even nastier place with no manners or tolerance.
again, good work and i'm so glad you did a follow up post.
interesting family history you have. perhaps if more people were aware of their own family history they'd be more tolerant of others.
speaking of which did you see the story re Princess Diana's Indian heritage?!

 

[smitcompton]

Hi MZ,

Thanks for the reply. No I didn't see the Princess Di article. It doesn't surprise me when the colonial powers leave the seeds of their journey. That was all my Aunt ws involved in. Our rahja went to the University of Leiden in holland where they met. I'm afraid these stories will die with me so I'm sending the nieces and my son the history as best i can remember it.

My nephew, who suffers from mental illness was arrested recently in England with a group of his mates for beating up some muslins. He is in his early forties and i hoped to bridge those six degres of separation with my family(the kids) with my story.
One of my heros of the 20th century is mahatma Gandi. He told a hindu man to adopt a muslim child to repent for hs own murdering of muslims. The niece that I write to the most just went to Morroco to see if she could adopt a child. She decided against it because she said she would have difficulty raising the child muslim. I just threw that out there. She is childless at 41.

I hope you had nice long walks and have become swelte again.

My best

Annette

 

[movie zombie]

here's the link re Princess Diana:

http://news.yahoo.com/princess-dian...-revealed-170430408--abc-news-topstories.html

 

[Gem Queen]

Sorry to be posting so late in this subject. I've never been to this part or PS.
I am Jewish, but am Blonde hair and have blue eyes. Not many people know I am Jewish, unless they know me personally.
I live in Huntington Beach, California, and while we are more openminded in SoCal, there is a lot of Arian brotherhood and other prejudice groups here. I had a friend who was dating a police officer. He had a boy. The boy had a Jewish friend. The two boys wanted to go somewhere or do something together and the Jewish firend's parents to their son that he couldn't go. The boy was so upset about the situation that he and the officer's son burned a cross in the lawn of the house of the Jewish people. Both kids went to juvenile hall. My friend did not understand the message it sent. I let her know that as a Jewish person that was a threat, and that the boys. Especially the son of the Jewish family should be punished. I was very upset and a little field up. I thought she was very ignorant regarding the situation and was sadly surprised
My husband bought me a beautiful diamond Jewish star and he doesn't like me to wear it. Luckily I work in court as a court reporter and am surrounded by many people of my clan. That is what I call them. I defiantly feel more at home at work. The comments that I've had from people when they find out I'm Jewish is amazing, like you don't have a big nose and other ridiculous comments. If people think the holicaust never happened, I have many stories from survivors that are so sad.

 

[movie zombie]

I'm betting others like you also spoke up as it is always a numbers game before any change is made...but good for you for taking the time and taking action! if you hadn't, well, that number game might not have added up to the magic number that said "there must be change"!

 

[telephone89]

I feel this is more relevant now, with hamas & israel in gaza. I personally do not really know any jewish people, most of the people I grew up with are 'brown' (indian, east african, pakistani, etc), and so with the gaza conflict I feel like they automatically side with the palestinians, which causes everyone else to call them anti-semetic. It's interesting to see from the outside (as I consider myself) the fighting. Netanyahu just recently compared Hamas/isis to the nazis, but it kind of seems like they're doing the same thing as was done to them many years ago.

 

[redwood66]

On the topic of relevant and good movies. I actually love Schindler's List, so well done. A more recent movie about the jewish population in Belarus is Defiance. Excellent and heartbreaking at the same time.

SB621 I have been to Dachau and it amazes me that people lived so close while millions were murdered but I might understand how fearful they were of the nazis and paralyzed to the point of protecting their own families. Propaganda does what it is meant to do on many people, fill their minds with a way of thinking that might not have come about naturally or from their own personal experiences.

 

[SB621]

On the topic of relevant and good movies. I actually love Schindler's List, so well done. A more recent movie about the jewish population in Belarus is Defiance. Excellent and heartbreaking at the same time.

SB621 I have been to Dachau and it amazes me that people lived so close while millions were murdered but I might understand how fearful they were of the nazis and paralyzed to the point of protecting their own families. Propaganda does what it is meant to do on many people, fill their minds with a way of thinking that might not have come about naturally or from their own personal experiences.

We are taking our kids to Dachau this summer since we now live in the "area". Since Europe is sort of exploding right now with anti-semitism we will see how that trip goes. I will say Germany has been very outspoken recently that they will not remain silent on the issue (such as France, NL and Belgium). I just can't believe how everything has flipped in the last few weeks. The swastika is popping up all over Europe and even within America. My cousin who just started college in the States got pelted with eggs not to long ago on her way to class. I used to think my generation was so idealistic and how far we have come in the last 50 years. This has been quite a rude awakening.

 

[missy]

On the topic of relevant and good movies. I actually love Schindler's List, so well done. A more recent movie about the jewish population in Belarus is Defiance. Excellent and heartbreaking at the same time.

SB621 I have been to Dachau and it amazes me that people lived so close while millions were murdered but I might understand how fearful they were of the nazis and paralyzed to the point of protecting their own families. Propaganda does what it is meant to do on many people, fill their minds with a way of thinking that might not have come about naturally or from their own personal experiences.

We are taking our kids to Dachau this summer since we now live in the "area". Since Europe is sort of exploding right now with anti-semitism we will see how that trip goes. I will say Germany has been very outspoken recently that they will not remain silent on the issue (such as France, NL and Belgium). I just can't believe how everything has flipped in the last few weeks. The swastika is popping up all over Europe and even within America. My cousin who just started college in the States got pelted with eggs not to long ago on her way to class. I used to think my generation was so idealistic and how far we have come in the last 50 years. This has been quite a rude awakening.

Very troubling Sarah and I hope things remain safe for you guys. I knew that anti semitism was going strong in Europe but it is one thing to read about it happening and quite another to hear from someone you know that it is indeed alive and breathing. Makes me very sad but not at all surprised. Please stay safe.

 

[AGBF]

I feel this is more relevant now, with hamas & israel in gaza. I personally do not really know any jewish people, most of the people I grew up with are 'brown' (indian, east african, pakistani, etc), and so with the gaza conflict I feel like they automatically side with the palestinians, which causes everyone else to call them anti-semetic. It's interesting to see from the outside (as I consider myself) the fighting. Netanyahu just recently compared Hamas/isis to the nazis, but it kind of seems like they're doing the same thing as was done to them many years ago.

Arabs, of course, are Semites. It has been pointed out many times, but ethnically speaking, Arabs and Jews are closely related. How could they not be? It has always been a misnomer to use the word, "anti-Semite" when referring to the Arab's hatred of the Jew.

Many people here know my story. My husband is an Italian Jew who was born after World War II in Genoa, Italy. His sister, who is 16 years older, was born before World War II. When the Nazis started their successful invasions of Poland, Belgium, and France, my husband's parents tried to flee Europe via Le Havre, France but missed the last ship out due to the successful German occupation of France. His parents and sister, who was 5 or 6 at the start of the occupation, lived in a small town in northern France throughout the German occupation. They were known to be Italian, of course, but said they had lost their papers in a fire. People in their village who suspected they were Jews did not give them away. It was, nonetheless, extremely dangerous. Their little girl had to be told never to say that she was a Jew. (Remember, only Jewish men were circumcised in Europe. My father-in-law was. He had to have a kidney operation. The hospital staff in France would have found out he was circumcised when he had surgery. The play, "Incident at Vichy" by Arthur Miller pivots around this idea.)

We have a photo of my sister-in-law and a another little girl, a French girl of the same age, in the arms of two German soldiers in full uniform with lightning tabs on their shoulders. They posed for the shot thinking the girls were cute little French girls, of course, and that they were welcome in France! I copied the photo from my Italian mother-in-law. When I was a child I had seen photos my father brought home from World War II (which had ended a mere 6 years before my birth). Some were pictures of American tanks and dead German soldiers in the streets of Paris. Not that he had taken the photos personally. They were sold as postcards after the liberation!

After the war when the family, having by a miracle survived the war, returned to Genoa. My sister-in-law decided to go to Israel to "make a new world". Which she did. She told her parents she was was going to a religious kibbutz, and then switched to a communist kibbutz after getting there. She was married at 16 and a mother (of my nephew Uzi, which means "Courage" in Hebrew) shortly afterward. Uzi is almost as old as my husband and was already in the Air Force when I got married and met him him in 1977. My niece, Lily, was in high school then.

Now all of Uzi and Lilly's children (5 of them) have already done their military service in the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces). My great-nephew, who was a medic in the army and saw action during the war in Lebanon, is like a son to me. He put himself through college here in Boston working as a mover. Because he was fluent in Italian as well as Hebrew, the boss had him interpreting to all the Spanish speaking workers. So now he speaks English; Italian; Spanish; and Hebrew. He is 32 and a scientist here in the United States employed by a large pharmaceutical company. I am very, very proud of him.

I have to go. My daughter is calling me!

 

[missy]

Thank you for sharing that with us Deb. Such an interesting and engaging story. Thank goodness your husband's family survived. My aunt's parents and brother were in a concentration camp during the war and her brother was killed in that concentration camp. After the war the parents who survived moved to America and eventually had my aunt who would not have been born if not for the war and the loss of her brother whom she never knew.

As for the term anti-semitism everything you say is technically correct.
However it is generally accepted that the term means hatred and/or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious or racial group.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-semitism

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/fs/2010/122352.htm

 

[AGBF]

Thank you for sharing that with us Deb. Such an interesting and engaging story. Thank goodness your husband's family survived. My aunt's parents and brother were in a concentration camp during the war and her brother was killed in that concentration camp. After the war the parents who survived moved to America and eventually had my aunt who would not have been born if not for the war and the loss of her brother whom she never knew.

As for the term anti-semitism everything you say is technically correct.
However it is generally accepted that the term means hatred and/or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious or racial group.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-semitism

Thank you for the definition, missy. And it makes logical sense that anti-semitism would have the meaning above given that it is primarily Jews, not Arabs, who integrated the once pagan/Christian European countries (with the exception of Spain).

Deb

 

[SB621]

I feel this is more relevant now, with hamas & israel in gaza. I personally do not really know any jewish people, most of the people I grew up with are 'brown' (indian, east african, pakistani, etc), and so with the gaza conflict I feel like they automatically side with the palestinians, which causes everyone else to call them anti-semetic. It's interesting to see from the outside (as I consider myself) the fighting. Netanyahu just recently compared Hamas/isis to the nazis, but it kind of seems like they're doing the same thing as was done to them many years ago.

This has to be one of the most ignorant comments I have ever read on PS. The Nazi's tried to exterminate an entire group of people for no reason. They targeted the in-firmed, elderly, children and women. They were tortured, used as science experiments or worked to death.

The IDF tells you where they are going to bomb. They warn civilians away. They drop flyers and make phone calls. They carry a code of ethics on them where it states specifically they are to respect all life and protect civilians to the best of their ability (civilians not just jews or Israelis). Hamas on the other hand used UN/ US funding for terror tunnels, used UN schools for rocket launches..the list goes on. Oh and Israeli set up hospitals for civilian causalities. Last time I checked they weren't sending people to the ovens or labor camps. I mean really I can't believe you even tried to go for that comparison Telephone. Edit to add that Hamas has publicly for years called for the destruction of Israeli and the Jewish people. Israel has never once done the same. Instead it has entered into peace agreements with whatever neighbor they could.

AGBF your family history is amazing! How wonderful that you can take these family stories and continue to pass down. And thank your nephew for his service. The majority of my cousins have all served in the IDF. They get quite the kick out of me being a military spouse to a wonderful person in the US armed services. We have lots of banter back and forth. My DH always says the best military in the world is the IDF for their ethics and fighting force! You should be proud!

 

[AGBF]

Sometimes I am angered by the excesses of Israel. I really honor the Israelis who speak out when they see what they believe to be abuse of "the enemy" during war, for example. I wish that the Israelis would stop building settlements to make it easier for a two state settlement with the Palestinians.

But I am delighted that Israel exists. Because sometimes, when I see anti-semitism in the United States and in Europe, I know that the "Never Again!" stance of Israel is going to be there no matter what happens in the other wishy washy countries of the world. Israelis are really tough. They are really fighters.

Before I was ever married and before I had ever gone to Israel I was in graduate school in New York City, studying history. There was an Israeli in my Ph.D program. I became friendly with him and his wife. Both of them, like all Israelis, had served in the military before being free to do university level studies. So he had been in the army. Nevertheless, he looked like what he was: a scholar. Or maybe an accountant. He dressed poorly, like many Israelis of that era (pre-blue jeans): in polyester. He was balding and had glasses. he was not very tall or prepossessing.

One day he came into school and told me he had been robbed. He was very angry that anyone would do this to him. (He lived in Brooklyn.) When the robber took his watch and wallet, he pursued him, giving chase to reclaim his belongings. I do not recall the details, but I recall being astonished. I just didn't know any American who would have chased a robber to demand the return of his belongings...especially if the robber had been armed in the first place! As I said, I cannot recall the details now, but the guy must have had a knife. No one pursues someone with a gun.... Especially not a guy who wears polyester and looks like an accountant. But Israelis are trained not to take anything lying down. They fight back.

And I am glad for that. I love the movies that show their heroism rescuing civilans at Entebbe. There is the commercial film, "Raid at Entebbe" and the documentary "Operation Thunderbolt".

Deb/AGBF

 

[telephone89]

I feel this is more relevant now, with hamas & israel in gaza. I personally do not really know any jewish people, most of the people I grew up with are 'brown' (indian, east african, pakistani, etc), and so with the gaza conflict I feel like they automatically side with the palestinians, which causes everyone else to call them anti-semetic. It's interesting to see from the outside (as I consider myself) the fighting. Netanyahu just recently compared Hamas/isis to the nazis, but it kind of seems like they're doing the same thing as was done to them many years ago.

This has to be one of the most ignorant comments I have ever read on PS. The Nazi's tried to exterminate an entire group of people for no reason. They targeted the in-firmed, elderly, children and women. They were tortured, used as science experiments or worked to death.

The IDF tells you where they are going to bomb. They warn civilians away. They drop flyers and make phone calls. They carry a code of ethics on them where it states specifically they are to respect all life and protect civilians to the best of their ability (civilians not just jews or Israelis). Hamas on the other hand used UN/ US funding for terror tunnels, used UN schools for rocket launches..the list goes on. Oh and Israeli set up hospitals for civilian causalities. Last time I checked they weren't sending people to the ovens or labor camps. I mean really I can't believe you even tried to go for that comparison Telephone. Edit to add that Hamas has publicly for years called for the destruction of Israeli and the Jewish people. Israel has never once done the same. Instead it has entered into peace agreements with whatever neighbor they could.

I don't mean to offend, and I definitely do NOT agree with Hamas, but I think both sides are in the wrong here. You may think the IDF has a 'code of ethics', however they are still wiping out the population simply because of who they are. A lot of the palestinians have no where else to go, with blockades and borders closed. Maybe it's not the same as a camp, but it's not that far off. Israel also used chemical weapons on gaza, a pretty big no-no. Was it an oven? Nope, but violated the geneva convention. The disparity in deaths is pretty alarming. You say the IDF has a moral code, but they bomb schools? (is hamas right in putting their weapons in schools, no, but IDF has a choice where they send missiles) Each side is blaming the other "IDF is killing children" "Hamas is using children as shields" but no one seems to stop and realize each side is just as responsible.

 

[AGBF]

I don't mean to offend, and I definitely do NOT agree with Hamas, but I think both sides are in the wrong here. You may think the IDF has a 'code of ethics', however they are still wiping out the population simply because of who they are. A lot of the palestinians have no where else to go, with blockades and borders closed. Maybe it's not the same as a camp, but it's not that far off. Israel also used chemical weapons on gaza, a pretty big no-no. Was it an oven? Nope, but violated the geneva convention. The disparity in deaths is pretty alarming. You say the IDF has a moral code, but they bomb schools? (is hamas right in putting their weapons in schools, no, but IDF has a choice where they send missiles) Each side is blaming the other "IDF is killing children" "Hamas is using children as shields" but no one seems to stop and realize each side is just as responsible.

Israel can be in the wrong without "wiping out the population" (in Gaza) "because of who they are". I do not think that Israel has 100% right on its side in this conflict, but that is a far cry from claiming that Israel is wiping out Arabs simply because they are Arabs, engaging in a campaign of genocide comparable to the one that the Nazis conducted against the Jews. Such a claim is truly farfetched.

Many, many countries have waged wars in which they have been heedless of civilian casualties (not that I am claiming Israel is more careless than most nations at war). Look at the firebombing of Dresden by the Allies during World War II. Look at the atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the United States. Look at the napalm dropped on villages in Vietnam by the United States. And those are just the civilian casualties ignored by our side! In all these cases the military disregarded huge numbers-HUGE NUMBERS-of civilian casualties in pursuit of military goals. The number of casualties in each case far, far outnumbered the casualties in Gaza.

Some countries have conducted deliberate campaigns of genocide. Very few, however, have gone to the lengths or had the "success" of the Nazis' campaign of genocide against the Jews.

Deb/AGBF

 

[SB621]

I don't mean to offend, and I definitely do NOT agree with Hamas, but I think both sides are in the wrong here. You may think the IDF has a 'code of ethics', however they are still wiping out the population simply because of who they are. A lot of the palestinians have no where else to go, with blockades and borders closed. Maybe it's not the same as a camp, but it's not that far off. Israel also used chemical weapons on gaza, a pretty big no-no. Was it an oven? Nope, but violated the geneva convention. The disparity in deaths is pretty alarming. You say the IDF has a moral code, but they bomb schools? (is hamas right in putting their weapons in schools, no, but IDF has a choice where they send missiles) Each side is blaming the other "IDF is killing children" "Hamas is using children as shields" but no one seems to stop and realize each side is just as responsible.

Israel can be in the wrong without "wiping out the population" (in Gaza) "because of who they are". I do not think that Israel has 100% right on its side in this conflict, but that is a far cry from claiming that Israel is wiping out Arabs simply because they are Arabs, engaging in a campaign of genocide comparable to the one that the Nazis conducted against the Jews. Such a claim is truly farfetched.

Many, many countries have waged wars in which they have been heedless of civilian casualties (not that I am claiming Israel is more careless than most nations at war). Look at the firebombing of Dresden by the Allies during World War II. Look at the atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the United States. Look at the napalm dropped on villages in Vietnam by the United States. And those are just the civilian casualties ignored by our side! In all these cases the military disregarded huge numbers-HUGE NUMBERS-of civilian casualties in pursuit of military goals. The number of casualties in each case far, far outnumbered the casualties in Gaza.

Some countries have conducted deliberate campaigns of genocide. Very few, however, have gone to the lengths or had the "success" of the Nazis' campaign of genocide against the Jews.

Deb/AGBF

Deb I was actually just reading about the civilian causalities in Iraq with the bombings directed at ISIS. No one is crying genocide to the US or other countries who participated for that. It is such a double standard.

Blockades and border closures are to ensure more weapons and crazies don't get in/ out. But I'm sure the news isn't reporting how people can get out. Right now the top person at Hamas is having some of his family members treated at hospitals within Israeli (note they were not hurt during operation protective edge, these are for other ongoing conditions- I want to say cancer). Once again double standard you want to demolish a country but are happy to use their healthcare when it benefits you.

And finally yes the IDF bombed school but what else should they have done? Even the US, UK and several other NATO nations agreed Israeli had the right. From the UN schools they were shooting at Israeli civilians, not their military. They hit a kindergarten. Tell me how else should they have handled the threat? Continue to pray that the Iron dome holds and another rocket won't come in and hit another one of their schools? Whether or not you like it Israeli acted as any nation would have should their neighbor had hostile intention. During Operation Protective edge there were at least 6 cease fires that Hamas broke. Hamas also shot over 3000 rockets (imagine how much UN money that was!) over to Israel to kill civilians. The US invaded Iraq on the assumption there were WMD's. Israeli invaded when rocket attacks became a daily occurrence and tunnels were found leading into cities on the borders. Personally I think they had a lot more evidence then the US.

I agree that both sides are not innocent but to me there will always be the defining fact that within Hamas they call for the destruction of a people and country. You get a place in Heaven for killing someone. That just blows me my mind. They attack Israeli civilians. At least the IDF attacks Hamas leaders and military. Unfortunately civilians do get caught in the middle but at the least the IDF attempts to keep them safe, they are never the main target. There is a value of human life there. You can't say the same for Hamas.

 

[missy]

Sarah, I agree completely with your posts. Hamas will not rest until the state of Israel and the Jewish people are destroyed. Period. That is their main goal and they don't care who gets killed along the way.

Telephone, your post comparing the Israelis to the Nazis is offensive and shows your ignorance. And stating you don't know any Jewish people is a poor defense.

I feel this is more relevant now, with hamas & israel in gaza. I personally do not really know any jewish people, most of the people I grew up with are 'brown' (indian, east african, pakistani, etc), and so with the gaza conflict I feel like they automatically side with the palestinians, which causes everyone else to call them anti-semetic. It's interesting to see from the outside (as I consider myself) the fighting. Netanyahu just recently compared Hamas/isis to the nazis, but it kind of seems like they're doing the same thing as was done to them many years ago.

This has to be one of the most ignorant comments I have ever read on PS. The Nazi's tried to exterminate an entire group of people for no reason. They targeted the in-firmed, elderly, children and women. They were tortured, used as science experiments or worked to death.

The IDF tells you where they are going to bomb. They warn civilians away. They drop flyers and make phone calls. They carry a code of ethics on them where it states specifically they are to respect all life and protect civilians to the best of their ability (civilians not just jews or Israelis). Hamas on the other hand used UN/ US funding for terror tunnels, used UN schools for rocket launches..the list goes on. Oh and Israeli set up hospitals for civilian causalities. Last time I checked they weren't sending people to the ovens or labor camps. I mean really I can't believe you even tried to go for that comparison Telephone. Edit to add that Hamas has publicly for years called for the destruction of Israeli and the Jewish people. Israel has never once done the same. Instead it has entered into peace agreements with whatever neighbor they could.

snip.....

Blockades and border closures are to ensure more weapons and crazies don't get in/ out. But I'm sure the news isn't reporting how people can get out. Right now the top person at Hamas is having some of his family members treated at hospitals within Israeli (note they were not hurt during operation protective edge, these are for other ongoing conditions- I want to say cancer). Once again double standard you want to demolish a country but are happy to use their healthcare when it benefits you.

And finally yes the IDF bombed school but what else should they have done? Even the US, UK and several other NATO nations agreed Israeli had the right. From the UN schools they were shooting at Israeli civilians, not their military. They hit a kindergarten. Tell me how else should they have handled the threat? Continue to pray that the Iron dome holds and another rocket won't come in and hit another one of their schools? Whether or not you like it Israeli acted as any nation would have should their neighbor had hostile intention. During Operation Protective edge there were at least 6 cease fires that Hamas broke. Hamas also shot over 3000 rockets (imagine how much UN money that was!) over to Israel to kill civilians. The US invaded Iraq on the assumption there were WMD's. Israeli invaded when rocket attacks became a daily occurrence and tunnels were found leading into cities on the borders. Personally I think they had a lot more evidence then the US.

I agree that both sides are not innocent but to me there will always be the defining fact that within Hamas they call for the destruction of a people and country. You get a place in Heaven for killing someone. That just blows me my mind. They attack Israeli civilians. At least the IDF attacks Hamas leaders and military. Unfortunately civilians do get caught in the middle but at the least the IDF attempts to keep them safe, they are never the main target. There is a value of human life there. You can't say the same for Hamas.

 

[telephone89]

I was NOT using the fact that I don't know any jewish people as a defense, that is absurd. I said that the people I know automatically side with the palestinians? Which is true. Most of them do not take the time to dig through the years (because this isn't a new conflict, just renewed in the media) of things done by both sides. I am not ignorant, just because you do not agree with my opinion does not make me uneducated on the subject.

At least the IDF attacks Hamas leaders and military. Unfortunately civilians do get caught in the middle but at the least the IDF attempts to keep them safe, they are never the main target. There is a value of human life there. You can't say the same for Hamas.

5 or 6 civilians have died in israel - 1500ish? More? in palestine. What kind of value for human life are you talking about?

Blockades and border closures are to ensure more weapons and crazies don't get in/ out. But I'm sure the news isn't reporting how people can get out.

And you know this? The borders are patrolled by israel & egypt, with a giant fence around it. Sounds like some penned in animals to me. I don't believe it is as easy as you make it out to leave, HOWEVER I think Hamas should be partly responsible for that, as they spent so much money and time building their own military sh&t instead of trying to protect/evacuate their own people.

Israel also broke the last ceasefire multiple times. Apparently another negotiation is in the works, we'll see how that goes.

 

[AGBF]

I was NOT using the fact that I don't know any jewish people as a defense, that is absurd. I said that the people I know automatically side with the palestinians? Which is true. Most of them do not take the time to dig through the years (because this isn't a new conflict, just renewed in the media) of things done by both sides. I am not ignorant, just because you do not agree with my opinion does not make me uneducated on the subject.

At least the IDF attacks Hamas leaders and military. Unfortunately civilians do get caught in the middle but at the least the IDF attempts to keep them safe, they are never the main target. There is a value of human life there. You can't say the same for Hamas.

5 or 6 civilians have died in israel - 1500ish? More? in palestine. What kind of value for human life are you talking about?

Blockades and border closures are to ensure more weapons and crazies don't get in/ out. But I'm sure the news isn't reporting how people can get out.

And you know this? The borders are patrolled by israel & egypt, with a giant fence around it. Sounds like some penned in animals to me. I don't believe it is as easy as you make it out to leave, HOWEVER I think Hamas should be partly responsible for that, as they spent so much money and time building their own military sh&t instead of trying to protect/evacuate their own people.

Israel also broke the last ceasefire multiple times. Apparently another negotiation is in the works, we'll see how that goes.

Not knowing someone Jewish is simply a fact as you say. I do happen to know anyone from Belize. I do not think it makes me a better of worse person. I absolutely agree with you that the blockades and closed borders have a terrible effect on the quality of life for every day Palestinian civilans who did nothing wrong. I have seen photos of people outside gates to Israel, waiting to cross so that they can get to the hospital. It is barbaric! These people are simply caught up in the madness. My position is the position of many Israelis, too.

Of course the loss of life in Gaza was disproportionate to loss of life in Israel and appalling. The international community felt that way. The United States felt that way. Many Israelis came to feel that way. But, again, the tunnels were unacceptable and the two sides have been stuck in a stalemate that is of the making of both.

I have a huge amount of sympathy for the people who suffer in Gaza. But I have seen what happens when even a right wing general in Israel tries to make peace. (I was so happy when Anwar Sadat and Menachem Begin signed the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty.) He gets assassinated by by an angry Israeli! The Israelis are sick of being hit by bombs. My husband's family lives in Sederot, the biggest target for rockets from Gaza. They are known as the bomb shelter capital of the world.

A peace settlement has to be brokered to end this. It is the only way. And both sides have to get to the table. And Israel has to offer land for peace. That is my opinion.

It is still a fallacy to compare the number of people dead in a conflict to a deliberate campaign to wipe a certain ethnic group off the map as the Nazis did with the Jews. The Israelis have no such aim with the Palestinians. I will not name other campaigns of genocide that have occurred in history here because I think it may divert the discussion!

Deb/AGBF

 

[missy]

I was NOT using the fact that I don't know any jewish people as a defense, that is absurd. I said that the people I know automatically side with the palestinians? Which is true. Most of them do not take the time to dig through the years (because this isn't a new conflict, just renewed in the media) of things done by both sides. I am not ignorant, just because you do not agree with my opinion does not make me uneducated on the subject.

At least the IDF attacks Hamas leaders and military. Unfortunately civilians do get caught in the middle but at the least the IDF attempts to keep them safe, they are never the main target. There is a value of human life there. You can't say the same for Hamas.

5 or 6 civilians have died in israel - 1500ish? More? in palestine. What kind of value for human life are you talking about?

Blockades and border closures are to ensure more weapons and crazies don't get in/ out. But I'm sure the news isn't reporting how people can get out.

And you know this? The borders are patrolled by israel & egypt, with a giant fence around it. Sounds like some penned in animals to me. I don't believe it is as easy as you make it out to leave, HOWEVER I think Hamas should be partly responsible for that, as they spent so much money and time building their own military sh&t instead of trying to protect/evacuate their own people.

Israel also broke the last ceasefire multiple times. Apparently another negotiation is in the works, we'll see how that goes.

Not knowing someone Jewish is simply a fact as you say. I do happen to know anyone from Belize. I do not think it makes me a better of worse person. I absolutely agree with you that the blockades and closed borders have a terrible effect on the quality of life for every day Palestinian civilans who did nothing wrong. I have seen photos of people outside gates to Israel, waiting to cross so that they can get to the hospital. It is barbaric! These people are simply caught up in the madness. My position is the position of many Israelis, too.

Of course the loss of life in Gaza was disproportionate to loss of life in Israel and appalling. The international community felt that way. The United States felt that way. Many Israelis came to feel that way. But, again, the tunnels were unacceptable and the two sides have been stuck in a stalemate that is of the making of both.

I have a huge amount of sympathy for the people who suffer in Gaza. But I have seen what happens when even a right wing general in Israel tries to make peace. (I was so happy when Anwar Sadat and Menachem Begin signed the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty.) He gets assassinated by by an angry Israeli! The Israelis are sick of being hit by bombs. My husband's family lives in Sederot, the biggest target for rockets from Gaza. They are known as the bomb shelter capital of the world.

A peace settlement has to be brokered to end this. It is the only way. And both sides have to get to the table. And Israel has to offer land for peace. That is my opinion.

It is still a fallacy to compare the number of people dead in a conflict to a deliberate campaign to wipe a certain ethnic group off the map as the Nazis did with the Jews. The Israelis have no such aim with the Palestinians. I will not name other campaigns of genocide that have occurred in history here because I think it may divert the discussion!

Deb/AGBF

yes, I agree Deb and it was this I was responding to...a ridiculous and offensive comparison.

 

[telephone89]

Not knowing someone Jewish is simply a fact as you say. I do happen to know anyone from Belize. I do not think it makes me a better of worse person. I absolutely agree with you that the blockades and closed borders have a terrible effect on the quality of life for every day Palestinian civilans who did nothing wrong. I have seen photos of people outside gates to Israel, waiting to cross so that they can get to the hospital. It is barbaric! These people are simply caught up in the madness. My position is the position of many Israelis, too.

Of course the loss of life in Gaza was disproportionate to loss of life in Israel and appalling. The international community felt that way. The United States felt that way. Many Israelis came to feel that way. But, again, the tunnels were unacceptable and the two sides have been stuck in a stalemate that is of the making of both.

I have a huge amount of sympathy for the people who suffer in Gaza. But I have seen what happens when even a right wing general in Israel tries to make peace. (I was so happy when Anwar Sadat and Menachem Begin signed the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty.) He gets assassinated by by an angry Israeli! The Israelis are sick of being hit by bombs. My husband's family lives in Sederot, the biggest target for rockets from Gaza. They are known as the bomb shelter capital of the world.

A peace settlement has to be brokered to end this. It is the only way. And both sides have to get to the table. And Israel has to offer land for peace. That is my opinion.

It is still a fallacy to compare the number of people dead in a conflict to a deliberate campaign to wipe a certain ethnic group off the map as the Nazis did with the Jews. The Israelis have no such aim with the Palestinians. I will not name other campaigns of genocide that have occurred in history here because I think it may divert the discussion!

Deb/AGBF

I agree, the peace settlement is the only way out. A few years ago Hamas would have been satisfied with the 1967 borders, however I wonder how after this conflict they still feel that way, or if they'd be vindictive and want more as a 'punishment'. It's hard to say, but it would be a start.

 

[AGBF]

Not knowing someone Jewish is simply a fact as you say. I do happen to know anyone from Belize. I do not think it makes me a better of worse person. I absolutely agree with you that the blockades and closed borders have a terrible effect on the quality of life for every day Palestinian civilans who did nothing wrong. I have seen photos of people outside gates to Israel, waiting to cross so that they can get to the hospital. It is barbaric! These people are simply caught up in the madness. My position is the position of many Israelis, too.

Of course the loss of life in Gaza was disproportionate to loss of life in Israel and appalling. The international community felt that way. The United States felt that way. Many Israelis came to feel that way. But, again, the tunnels were unacceptable and the two sides have been stuck in a stalemate that is of the making of both.

I have a huge amount of sympathy for the people who suffer in Gaza. But I have seen what happens when even a right wing general in Israel tries to make peace. (I was so happy when Anwar Sadat and Menachem Begin signed the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty.) He gets assassinated by by an angry Israeli! The Israelis are sick of being hit by bombs. My husband's family lives in Sederot, the biggest target for rockets from Gaza. They are known as the bomb shelter capital of the world.

A peace settlement has to be brokered to end this. It is the only way. And both sides have to get to the table. And Israel has to offer land for peace. That is my opinion.

It is still a fallacy to compare the number of people dead in a conflict to a deliberate campaign to wipe a certain ethnic group off the map as the Nazis did with the Jews. The Israelis have no such aim with the Palestinians. I will not name other campaigns of genocide that have occurred in history here because I think it may divert the discussion!

I agree, the peace settlement is the only way out. A few years ago Hamas would have been satisfied with the 1967 borders, however I wonder how after this conflict they still feel that way, or if they'd be vindictive and want more as a 'punishment'. It's hard to say, but it would be a start.

The problem with Hamas trying to punish Israel is that it it leads to Israel trying to punish Hamas. And, as you pointed out about the Gaza conflict when you mentioned the number dead in the war, Israel is by far the more powerful. That ultimately leads to more suffering for the Palestinian people. Here is how: as more people in southern Israel are being hit by Hamas rockets more anger builds up in Israel. It doesn't happen at once, but eventually it leads to the bombing of Gaza (where the rockets originate) again. And it may lead to a third ground invasion of Gaza by Israel. Then it will be Palestinian civilians in Gaza who are punished for the decisions made by the leadership of Hamas.

Do I understand the desire of Hamas for revenge? Yes.

Do I think it is in the interest of the people? Absolutely not. And Hamas knows that and does not care. It only cares about its ideological goals.


Who will really speak for the people on the ground in Palestine?

I used to love President Jimmy Carter here in the United States, but I seem to be the only US citizen who does. I am hoping that more real peace makers emerge.

When my brother and I fought as children and said, "He did this to me", "She did that to me first" my mother used to say, "I don't care who started it; I'm going to stop it". That's what we need. Someone who helps stop the two sides from endlessly "punishing" each other.

AGBF

 

[missy]

Deb, I agree that both sides just need to make it work. However IMO Hamas will never be satisfied until Israel is gone and with it all the Jewish people. Israel has tried and tried again and yet Hamas is never and will never be satisfied until the above is accomplished. I would love to be proven wrong and hope it happens in my lifetime.

As for Jimmy Carter well I respectfully disagree with your sentiment. Here is an op ed piece that summarizes fairly well how I do feel however.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Why-Jimmy-Carter-is-not-an-anti-Semite

grew up in the US during the 1970s, the one decade universally acknowledged to have truly sucked. In 1970s America we danced to disco music, wore leisure suits and watched the Brady Bunch. But if that wasn't torture enough, we had Jimmy Carter as our president. I can still recall how depressing it was to watch his taciturn face on TV announcing one catastrophe after another, from the skyrocketing misery index, to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, to the capture of our hostages in Iran, to the tragically-botched rescue attempt to free them.

Jimmy Carter was arguably the most hapless president in all American history, and indeed, today most presidential historians today rate him at or near the very bottom of the list. Ronald Reagan was able to crush Carter at the polls with the simple slogan "Morning in America," a tacit acknowledgement that under Carter's watch it had been a cold midnight across the fruited plain.

But with the publication of Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid, his ignorant rant against Israel, many in the American Jewish community believe that Carter is not just a loser but an anti-Semite. I disagree. Jimmy Carter is not so much anti-Semite as anti-intellectual, not so much a Jew-hater as a boor.

The real explanation behind his limitless hostility to Israel is a total lack of any moral understanding. Carter wants to do what's just. His heart's in the right place. He just can't figure out what the right is. He is, and always has been, a man of good intentions bereft of good judgment. He invariably finds himself defending tyrants and dictators at the expense of their oppressed peoples. Not because he is a bad man, but because he is a confused man.

CARTER SUBSCRIBES to what I call the Always Root for the Underdog school of morality. Rather than develop any real understanding of a conflict, immediately he sides with the weaker party, however wicked or immoral. Israel has tanks and F-16's. The Palestinians don't. Therefore the Palestinians are being oppressed. Never mind that the Palestinians have rejected every offer to live side by side with Israel in peace and elected a government pledged to Israel's annihilation. Their poverty dictates the righteousness of their cause even if their actions speak otherwise. If Israel builds a barrier to cordon off the Palestinians, it is not to prevent their suicide bombers from dismembering children but to punish them for having darker skin.

Carter's obsession with the unrighteous underdog has embarrassed him many times before. It was what motivated him to visit and legitimize Fidel Castro and take his side in a bio-weapons dispute with the United States. Castro runs a tiny island in the shadow of the world's superpower. He must therefore perforce be a victim of American bullying, even if he is a brutal dictator and tyrant. Championing the unrighteous underdog also led Carter to praise the murderous North Korean tyrant Kim Il Sung with these words: "I find him to be vigorous, intelligent... and in charge of the decisions about this country." Carter added, "I don't see that [the North Koreans] are an outlaw nation."

He also hailed Marshal Joseph Tito as "a man who believes in human rights," and said of the murderous Romanian dictator Ceausescu: "Our goals are the same: to have a just system of economics and politics... We believe in enhancing human rights." Championing the underdog also had Carter tell the Haitian dictator Raul C dras that he was "ashamed of what my country has done to your country."

AS A MARITAL counselor I have met many well-meaning arbitrators who always take the side of the wife in an ugly dispute in the belief that a woman, inherently weaker than her husband, is always the innocent and aggrieved party. Even where the evidence points to the wife as being violent and unreasonable, such arbitrators cannot conceive of the husband as anything but the oppressor. Needless to say, such arbitrators cause more harm than good, which is why Jimmy Carter would make an even worse marital counselor than he was president.

No, Carter is not anti-Semitic so much as a man whose lack of judgment and shallowness render him absolutely incapable of telling right from wrong. Carter's obscene comparison of Israel with apartheid South Africa ignores the fact that Israel is the first country to airlift tens of thousands of black Africans to become free and full citizens in its borders, a phenomenon that has no precedent in the history of the world. But by saying that the Palestinians are being subjected to apartheid Carter has grossly maligned not Jews, but black South Africans.

Whereas black South Africans inspired the world with their humane capacity for forgiveness and peaceful coexistence with their white brethren, even after having been so egregiously wronged, the Palestinians have unfortunately embraced murderous hatred and racism. Arab newspapers routinely publish grotesque caricatures of Jews, and the Palestinians teach kindergarten children to grow up and blow up Israeli buses.

Nelson Mandela rose to become the world's greatest statesman with his articulation of brotherhood and reconciliation. But Yasser Arafat fathered international terrorism and stole hundreds of millions of dollars from his own people. Which leads to one conclusion: Before one runs around the world as a global do-gooder, one should first develop the ability to identify the good.

 

[telephone89]

Deb, I agree that both sides just need to make it work. However IMO Hamas will never be satisfied until Israel is gone and with it all the Jewish people. Israel has tried and tried again and yet Hamas is never and will never be satisfied until the above is accomplished. I would love to be proven wrong and hope it happens in my lifetime.

As for Jimmy Carter well I respectfully disagree with your sentiment. Here is an op ed piece that summarizes fairly well how I do feel however.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Why-Jimmy-Carter-is-not-an-anti-Semite

Hamas/Palestine has also tried. It's not a 1 sided story, but you seem to ignore the other side. Please do some research on Hamas & 1967 borders. Seriously, just google it.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/05/24/136403918/hamas-foreign-minister-we-accept-two-state-solution-with-67-borders

 

[missy]

Deb, I agree that both sides just need to make it work. However IMO Hamas will never be satisfied until Israel is gone and with it all the Jewish people. Israel has tried and tried again and yet Hamas is never and will never be satisfied until the above is accomplished. I would love to be proven wrong and hope it happens in my lifetime.

As for Jimmy Carter well I respectfully disagree with your sentiment. Here is an op ed piece that summarizes fairly well how I do feel however.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Why-Jimmy-Carter-is-not-an-anti-Semite

Hamas/Palestine has also tried. It's not a 1 sided story, but you seem to ignore the other side. Please do some research on Hamas & 1967 borders. Seriously, just google it.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/05/24/136403918/hamas-foreign-minister-we-accept-two-state-solution-with-67-borders

Telephone, are you familiar with the Hamas Charter?
http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

News




THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS - MAIN POINTS

=======================================



The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August

18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS,

is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the

territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive

manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the

basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad

(Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS

Covenant:



Goals of the HAMAS:

------------------

'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian

movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is

Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of

Palestine.' (Article 6)



On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

----------------------------------------

'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

(Article 11)



'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)



The Call to Jihad:

------------------

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the

individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation,

it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)



'Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses

everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the

call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will

reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is

achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.'

(Article 33)



Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:

-------------------------------------------

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)



Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

----------------------------------------------

'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle

[against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The

Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar

agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason,

and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.' (Article 32)



Anti-Semitic Incitement:

------------------------

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)



'The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have

accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money,

they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred

revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the

French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the

revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret

organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -

which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies

and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ...

and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the

world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge

financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them

having their finger in it.' (Article 22)



'Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet

expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have

finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they

will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out

in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.' (Article 32)



'The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the

circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over

the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped

for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.'

(Article 32)

The Hamas belief is not just anti Israel but anti-semitic and racist at its very core. They call for the complete obliteration of the state of Israel. "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." Hamas does not accept the existence of Israel and continues to pursue its goals through violence and terrorism. Hamas leaders have stated time and again that they will relinquish not even an inch of territory.

Seriously, do you really think one can reason with this terrorist group? When you tell me to google what do you know about me? Do you think I haven't a clue what Hamas is about or asking for or have the ability to see both sides? The problem is I do see both sides and I see how insane Hamas is and how they will never give up. Like the suicide bomber how do you reason with someone with such extremist beliefs that they are willing to kill as many people as possible to get what they think is rightfully theirs?

Do you think it is OK for them to hate a group of people so strongly as to call for their complete and utter obliteration? If you do think it is OK then I guess there is nothing left to discuss with you but I am hoping that you don't think what Hamas stands for is OK or rational or right or ethical. And the fact you compared Israel to the Nazis really blew my mind and does make me question what you do and don't know. In fact, the Hamas covenant reads like a modern day Mein Kampf and that is terrifying. And despite what they say action speaks louder than words. They will never be satisfied. Mark my words. And as I wrote I would love to be proven wrong but I think I have a better chance at winning the billion dollar lottery.

 

[telephone89]

Do note that was written when the group was formed, 1988. Since then, there have been multiple attemps and offers of a (limited) truce. I certainly agree that their manifesto is not fitting with their current views, however I believe that at their core, what they wanted was their land back so their people could live in peace.

I just found this article, from the same site you linked earlier, pretty interesting. http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Green-Lined/Rats-in-the-palace-379735

Jewish tradition teaches that Jerusalem is the palace of the king. Can you imagine if in the palace of the king, a group of rats ran wild, stealing food from the kitchen and terrorizing the royal family in their bedrooms? What would a self-respecting king do? Do you think he would conduct negotiations with the rodents? Might he offer them half the palace so they’ll finally get off of his back?

No chance. What the king would do is - call in the exterminators. He would make sure that the rats are hunted down, one by one, pulling them out of their holes in necessary - and exterminated

...

That is the kind of Jerusalem we have been dreaming of for thousands of years.

Exterminated? I guess that sounds like a value for human life, trying to make peace.

As I've said before, neither side is correct.

 

[missy]

That is the opinion of one man compared to the beliefs of all of Hamas. No comparison. From that very same article by one man that you linked above:

Hamas is a certified terror organization, cut from the same cloth as ISIL and Hezbollah. They were the ones who perfected suicide murder bombings of busses of innocent civilians, in Jerusalem and throughout Israel. They summarily execute their opponents, without trial or due process.

Yes, I agree with that statement in the article completely. Nowhere however can you compare rationally what Hamas wants to and is trying to do to what that man writing that piece is saying Israel should do. It is his opinion only. Compared to all of Hamas and their followers who believe they must annihilate all of Israel and all of the Jewish people. Again, you cannot argue or have a rational discussion with crazy which is exactly what trying to make peace with Hamas amounts to. Sure the Hamas charter was written a few decades ago but for all their backtracking we all know they still believe and intend on following through with it. Actions speak louder than words and they refuse to rewrite it their charter. Wonder why.

Also from the same opinion piece you linked:

And last night, a 20-year old Hamas operative from Jerusalem’s historic City of David neighborhood took his car and - swerving off of the road - plowed into a group of people waiting to board the city’s new light rail train. The car continued onward, slamming into the train itself. A close circuit camera captured the action of the attack.

As a result, 3-month old Chaya Zissel Braun thrown out of her baby carriage, landing several meters away. She suffered severe injuries to her head, and died a few hours later.

Since that time, the Israeli authorities have been reluctant to take the steps necessary to make the city unified in action. The division between the two sides of the city - the Western, Jewish side and the Eastern, Arab side - has remained. As a result, there are entire neighborhoods of Jerusalem that a Jew would not set foot in, at risk of his life.

See? The Israeli authorities do not behave like Hamas and intentionally kill babies and other innocent civilians like Hamas does intentionally. Israel does not want more bloodshed except to do what is necessary to protect themselves as this piece by the author shows. He is complaining about Israel's lack of desire to annihilate Hamas. Your link proves what I have been saying. Hamas is nothing like Israel. Hamas is like a crazed rabid animal intent on killing everyone and destroying everything to get what they want.

 

[AGBF]

I saw this article on the Internet and immediately remembered this thread. I wanted to bring it to the attention of others, because I thought it was worth knowing about, but didn't know where to post it until I remembered missy had raised the topic. Good old missy!!!

This is an example of anti-semitism at work today in the United States, not much attention paid to it since-as the author said-we expect targets of discrimination to be other groups, not Jews. Things worked out for the young woman who was scrutinized for being Jewish...but the fact that she was shows that prejudice was at work.

Link to article...http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/06/us/debate-on-a-jewish-student-at-ucla.html?action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&module=MostEmailed&version=Full&region=Marginalia&src=me&pgtype=article

Deb/AGBF