Another ethics question.

[iheartscience]

The first thing that jumped out to me is that the timing was just as easily (and probably more likely) due to when the client requested the ring and not because BGD was trying to sneak something in under the wire. I really don't see how BGD could have known that WF was adding the ring to their stock settings.

So does WF have the copyright on the design now that it's in their stock setting catalog? It seems common enough to me that it would be hard to copyright, but I don't know how all that works.

 

[Amys Bling]

First I would feel honored that another PSer wanted to copy your exact ring!! (I think many of us do!!) but I do get what you are saying--- the fact that another vendor did the copying for this person and took that exact design. My only other thought though is that the PSer sought out that vendor out of preference and possibly even price and bei g that your design wasn't copyrighted with your vendor they saw no issue with making the same ring.


Ps maybe you are not referring to your ring--/ I just made that assumption.

Maybe it's different in the USA, but there seems to be a misconception that you need to go through some kind of registering process to copyright a design. In fact, as soon as the design exists either as a drawn design or as an actual piece it is automatically copyright.

The issue is that suing for breach of copyright is expensive and time-consuming and so unless there is a lot at stake in terms of damages most people don't pursue it. That doesn't mean that it hasn't been unethically and a definite breach of copyright law (ie illegal) for a copy to have been made.

You can register in order to have extra protection and advantages if you do end up in litigation.

I trained as a Textile Designer and we had a lot of lectures in my final year from legal experts advising us on copyright and design infringment. I've been the victim a number of times and when it is how you put food on the table you take a very dim view of companies who are unethical in this way.

Thanks for explaining that piece to me as this issue is not familiar territory to me.

 

[JulieN]

Depends on how unique it is.... if its ever been done before, or a very unique twist/variation on something that has been done before. In art, I like to see some kind of ownership/philosophy of design that is evident in the piece, like, ahah! that was definitely made by Yessie (or someone intimately familiar with Yessie's philosophy of design.)

Are we talking about your fabulous 3-stone? It's beautiful, but I think I've seen it somewhere before.

 

[Dancing Fire]

i asked BGD to make this 3 stone pendant for me and its been on their website ever since,no big deal to me,nothing special.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/home/ring-details/?product_id=5546

 

[slg47]

i asked BGD to make this 3 stone pendant for me and its been on their website ever since,no big deal to me,nothing special.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/home/ring-details/?product_id=5546

DF I believe what yssie is referring to is having a piece designed by one vendor and then someone else contacts another vendor to make a replica.

there are so many replicas out there...Tiffany solitaires...HW-inspired-halos...that I don't see it as a big deal. However I have zero knowledge of rules that vendors must follow that pertain to this sort of thing.

 

[D&T]

I totally get where you are coming from.

A custom piece I made inspired by another piece has been copied by a vendor not on PS (anymore), but it is clearly being offered on their site.

A bib I made with a little touch of something is now being copied and sold on Etsy, i was on etsy, but I just didn't have the amount of feedback (don't have much time, more of a hobby of mine) this vendor has - so they sell a ton of my creation,, but am fine as like Thing2 said common elements at work. Anyways, at the end of the day, I just say to myself, that they couldn't think of something as original as mine even if inspired by something else, they just didn't know how to put it altogether until I came along

 

[Autumnovember]

I completely understand where you're coming from and why you're feeling the way that you are.

But here is the bottom line:

You're going to feel this way, you may possibly feel less annoyed by hearing our opinions, yes.... but......

Eventually, its going to fade away and you won't be as annoyed anymore. It's just a matter of time and getting over it.

I don't blame you at all for feeling the way that you do but I know its going to be a temporary feeling for you.

 

[yssie]

I completely understand where you're coming from and why you're feeling the way that you are.

But here is the bottom line:

You're going to feel this way, you may possibly feel less annoyed by hearing our opinions, yes.... but......

Eventually, its going to fade away and you won't be as annoyed anymore. It's just a matter of time and getting over it.

I don't blame you at all for feeling the way that you do but I know its going to be a temporary feeling for you.

Thanks, everyone.


Pandora - I'm not sure if it's the same in the US? In any case - my argument here, which I think is in agreement to yours, is that *now* they could not produce that ring (without running into all sorts of trouble), and the underlying ethics have not changed, only (possibly) the legalities. Which to me just sort of says it all.

Gosh AN, a day later, you are so right. I'm peeved, and feel that BGD's actions were unarguably fundamentally unethical, but the end of the day - how on earth we're going to survive our flight across the country with three cats tomorrow is a more pressing worry


The outcome is simply that I will neither patronize nor recommend BGD for setting work.

 

[VRBeauty]

Your ring is lovely, and to me it does look like a unique combination of otherwise common elements. I totally understand why you might be "irked" on behalf of WF. However, I agree with T2T - it's unlikely that BGD made the ring to get under the wire since they don't have control of when they might get a customer requesting a ring like yours.

Gypsy ran into a similar situation a with her e-ring a few years ago - I don't remember the resolution, but the second vendor actually carried her design in his catalog.

I hope this doesn't detract from the pleasure of wearing that beautiful ring!

 

[Laila619]

I don't think there is anything ethically wrong with it unless the design is copyrighted. Most of us look at pictures or actual rings to get ideas of what we want, and let's face it, there isn't much that is truly original out there. Almost all the pieces we see on here are copies of something. We currently are seeing Leon, SK, and Victor C making the same popular designs. I don't see anything wrong with it, personally.

Yep.

 

[karpouzi]

I'd be curious to know whether, when you were working with WF on the ring, you sent them pictures of/links to other rings that you liked certain elements of. I'm not judging but I think it's an interesting question, and if you did borrow elements from other rings, do you think this changes your feelings about the ethics of the situation?

 

[Laila619]

Couldn't edit my previous post, but I also wanted to add that if WF isn't upset about it, then I don't think you should be bothered by it either IMO.

 

[Mayk]

I think it says if this would be an issue in the future if there are certain characteristics about your design that is unique or that you would prefer not to see repeated... some aspects shouldn't be shared... maybe a more general description.. I think this is where we all learn when we are on this site. Based on your experience and how I feel about my setting I think I would have similar feelings... unless I shared all the intimate details which I see done here often which then I think it becomes fair game since it's a public site... how would you control that without a copyright?

I love your ring.. it is a beautiful piece and I went back and read through your posts as you went through the design phase.. much work and thought went into your forever ring...

good luck on the flight... eek.. I wouldn't take my terrorist (cat) on a flight.. he would scare everyone!!!!

 

[Amys Bling]

Couldn't edit my previous post, but I also wanted to add that if WF isn't upset about it, then I don't think you should be bothered by it either IMO.

Very true.

 

[yssie]

I'd be curious to know whether, when you were working with WF on the ring, you sent them pictures of/links to other rings that you liked certain elements of. I'm not judging but I think it's an interesting question, and if you did borrow elements from other rings, do you think this changes your feelings about the ethics of the situation?

Definitely. Lots of different inspiration pics and lots of sketches. I said outright that it's an inspired-by itself, in fact. I don't see why that should that change my opinion of another vendor outright copying the end result.. but I find I am caring less and less at this point. As another poster said - if it doesn't bother WF, why should it bother me?

 

[yssie]

Couldn't edit my previous post, but I also wanted to add that if WF isn't upset about it, then I don't think you should be bothered by it either IMO.

Very true.

Yes, indeed, very true. I imagine if this happened now, they would be bothered, and I don't know why I am bothered on their behalf, truly. I am however far less bothered than I was yesterday, and no doubt tomorrow it'll be one of the last things on my mind.

 

[rosetta]

Ok, I'm the owner of this ring made by BGD.

Firstly, I had no idea that this was a copyrighted design. I thought it was just another 3 stone ring! I initially contacted WF to make it, but they didn't have the right stones for me. BGD made the CAD without much direction from me, with a few changes (thinner shank, pointier prongs, the stone set much lower ie as low as possible etc etc)

Sorry you are upset yssie (even if you aren't angry with me exactly)

Would it help if I told you that I have now seen almost the exact same ring in a UK jewellers already (albeit with smaller stones?) The only difference were the prongs.

ETA: for anyone worried about my enjoyment of my ring lessening due to this thread, please don't. I love it still. It was definitely made before WF made the design into a stock piece. And please, anyone feel free to copy any of my jewellery down to the last detail. Just don't ask me anything about copyright as I'm no expert!

 

[kelpie]

It depends on the uniqueness of the design to me. Everyone offers a version of Tiffany's setting and it is nothing especially unique (perhaps upon it's introduction it was) but the proportions and finishing details all work perfectly so it has been copied a billion times over in some very bad and some superb iterations. From what I recall the ring in question is a similarly classic and well proportioned design but there is nothing that stands out as "one of a kind" or like a signature trademark in which case I am not surprised to see it closely copied, nor was it by any means the first of its type. Even though my own ring was 100% designed by the vendor who was inspired by an antique, I debated long and hard about sharing it here because I treasure its uniqueness. But what the heck, we all need to give back to the bling community and you've done that in spades. Most jewelers will refuse to copy another's design exactly but if what the customer is asking for a three stone with a certain number of prongs, I can see how that's not a proprietary work because many jewelers could produce very close results if the customer insisted on specifications.

 

[yssie]

Ok, I'm the owner of this ring made by BGD.

Firstly, I had no idea that this was a copyrighted design. I thought it was just another 3 stone ring! I initially contacted WF to make it, but they didn't have the right stones for me. BGD made the CAD without much direction from me, with a few changes (thinner shank, pointier prongs, the stone set much lower ie as low as possible etc etc)

Sorry you are upset yssie (even if you aren't angry with me exactly)

Would it help if I told you that I have now seen almost the exact same ring in a UK jewellers already (albeit with smaller stones?) The only difference were the prongs.

Oh, dear.

I'm not at all upset with you Rosetta, truly. I sound like a broken record but I really am totally flattered! Yesterday I was absolutely fuming at BGD. Today... copyright or not (and I don't actually know anything about these sorts of rules) if WF doesn't care, I shouldn't either, and I'm speedily mellowing.

Please enjoy your ring, and the rest of your GORGEOUS wedding jewellery!

 

[iugurl]

I'd just register the compliment and forget about it.
I totally do not understand why women get upset over stuff like this or another woman showing up at a party with the same dress or whatever.

Ok...

 

[rosetta]

Ok, I'm the owner of this ring made by BGD.

Firstly, I had no idea that this was a copyrighted design. I thought it was just another 3 stone ring! I initially contacted WF to make it, but they didn't have the right stones for me. BGD made the CAD without much direction from me, with a few changes (thinner shank, pointier prongs, the stone set much lower ie as low as possible etc etc)

Sorry you are upset yssie (even if you aren't angry with me exactly)

Would it help if I told you that I have now seen almost the exact same ring in a UK jewellers already (albeit with smaller stones?) The only difference were the prongs.

Oh, dear.

I'm not at all upset with you Rosetta, truly. I sound like a broken record but I really am totally flattered! Yesterday I was absolutely fuming at BGD. Today... copyright or not (and I don't actually know anything about these sorts of rules) if WF doesn't care, I shouldn't either, and I'm speedily mellowing.

Please enjoy your ring, and the rest of your GORGEOUS wedding jewellery!

No hard feelings here yssie

Besides, i would climb over broken glass to get to your gorgeous design. I happened to be wearing it at a very high end jewellers about 3 months ago, and the SA literally went gaga over it. Eyes the size of saucers.

 

[yssie]

Ok, I'm the owner of this ring made by BGD.

Firstly, I had no idea that this was a copyrighted design. I thought it was just another 3 stone ring! I initially contacted WF to make it, but they didn't have the right stones for me. BGD made the CAD without much direction from me, with a few changes (thinner shank, pointier prongs, the stone set much lower ie as low as possible etc etc)

Sorry you are upset yssie (even if you aren't angry with me exactly)

Would it help if I told you that I have now seen almost the exact same ring in a UK jewellers already (albeit with smaller stones?) The only difference were the prongs.

Oh, dear.

I'm not at all upset with you Rosetta, truly. I sound like a broken record but I really am totally flattered! Yesterday I was absolutely fuming at BGD. Today... copyright or not (and I don't actually know anything about these sorts of rules) if WF doesn't care, I shouldn't either, and I'm speedily mellowing.

Please enjoy your ring, and the rest of your GORGEOUS wedding jewellery!

No hard feelings here yssie

Besides, i would climb over broken glass to get to your gorgeous design. I happened to be wearing it at a very high end jewellers about 3 months ago, and the SA literally went gaga over it. Eyes the size of saucers.

 

[Amys Bling]

It's a stunning ring and would love to own my own version of it one day!!

 

[Matata]

Ok, I'm the owner of this ring made by BGD.

Firstly, I had no idea that this was a copyrighted design. I thought it was just another 3 stone ring! I initially contacted WF to make it, but they didn't have the right stones for me. BGD made the CAD without much direction from me, with a few changes (thinner shank, pointier prongs, the stone set much lower ie as low as possible etc etc)

Sorry you are upset yssie (even if you aren't angry with me exactly)

Would it help if I told you that I have now seen almost the exact same ring in a UK jewellers already (albeit with smaller stones?) The only difference were the prongs.

ETA: for anyone worried about my enjoyment of my ring lessening due to this thread, please don't. I love it still. It was definitely made before WF made the design into a stock piece. And please, anyone feel free to copy any of my jewellery down to the last detail. Just don't ask me anything about copyright as I'm no expert!

So it sounds as though concerns about "copying" an already copied/existing design is a non issue. Yssie, I think you're being a bit harsh in relegating BGD to the junk pile and impugning their character based on this example.

 

[Haven]

This is a really interesting discussion. I don't know how I feel about this situation, but I do know that I had some concerns about posting pictures of my custom ring on PS because I didn't want to expose my jeweler's work to potential copycats. It wasn't that I don't want others to wear the same ring, I'd find that flattering, it was that I wanted to protect my jeweler's hard work. However, I asked my jeweler about it and he had no concerns whatsoever about having pictures of his ring online. So, I posted a gajillion of them.

My ring isn't really unique enough to compare to yours, though, Yssie, so I'm not sure it's a proper parallel. However, were I in your situation, I imagine I might feel a bit protective of my jeweler and his hard work. Whether that feeling is rational, who knows, but I bet I would have it.

 

[Amys Bling]

This is a really interesting discussion. I don't know how I feel about this situation, but I do know that I had some concerns about posting pictures of my custom ring on PS because I didn't want to expose my jeweler's work to potential copycats. It wasn't that I don't want others to wear the same ring, I'd find that flattering, it was that I wanted to protect my jeweler's hard work. However, I asked my jeweler about it and he had no concerns whatsoever about having pictures of his ring online. So, I posted a gajillion of them.

My ring isn't really unique enough to compare to yours, though, Yssie, so I'm not sure it's a proper parallel. However, were I in your situation, I imagine I might feel a bit protective of my jeweler and his hard work. Whether that feeling is rational, who knows, but I bet I would have it.

I understand this. If you spend time designing with a jeweler I understand the "ownership" you feel over the design and the protectiveness you may feel for the jeweler who designed it with you. I would feel flattered at others wanting the design-- and the fact that the original jeweler asked Yssie's permission to stock it means THEY thought it original enough to make it a stock setting of theirs. I don't know that I would condemn BGD as they were contacted and asked specifically to make it for someone- but it does make you question if it is "fair".

 

[Amys Bling]

Also- Yssie is part of your frustration with BGD also added to the issues you had with your custom cushion DBTY bracelet project?

 

[CaprineSun]

Hmm... this thread is ironic for me because it was not even 2 wks ago I was on a popular brand's website (non PS vendor) & saw a ring that was exactly like Yssie's. I immediately thought to myself "oh, so she copied that exact design for her ring. No wonder because it's beautiful". That design was certainly before your ring except some minor tweaks that may be so subtle, no one will be able to tell the difference anyhow- at least they were not apparent enough to me to even notice at the time (although I did remember you mentioning how much work went into it).

I agree with the others who've said everything here is a copy of a copy of a copy. Look at all the HW micropave replicas ( especially from those like LM-- very HW-esque style) & Tiffany solitaire replicas overflowing on this site. I can *sort of* see the place where you are coming from because it's your ring, but I almost felt like

I honestly do not see anything unethical here-- especially to muddy a PS vendor so wonderful as BGD as being "low." There is no copyright on that design. Makes me think it's more personal/deeper than just defending your vendor & more so that it is your ring being copied with a bit more of a sting that it's being done by another vendor than the one you had personally commissioned (although I acknowledge you have stated otherwise).

I'd let WF take up any issues if there were to be any-- which there shouldn't IMO.

Also- Yssie is part of your frustration with BGD also added to the issues you had with your custom cushion DBTY bracelet project?

I'm getting this vibe as well.


You ring is TDF! And so is Rosetta's! Maybe you can think of your ring as the new HW micropave ring or the new Tiffany 6-prong solitaire.

 

[MonkeyPie]

I'd just register the compliment and forget about it.
I totally do not understand why women get upset over stuff like this or another woman showing up at a party with the same dress or whatever.

Ok...

Just Kenny being rude again.

Yssie, I'm glad you're mellowing about the whole situation. I honestly think this is one of those things with an instinctual, "Hey, NO FAIR!" reaction that calms once you have some time to think about it.

 

[Amys Bling]

I'd just register the compliment and forget about it.
I totally do not understand why women get upset over stuff like this or another woman showing up at a party with the same dress or whatever.

Ok...

Just Kenny being rude again.

Yssie, I'm glad you're mellowing about the whole situation. I honestly think this is one of those things with an instinctual, "Hey, NO FAIR!" reaction that calms once you have some time to think about it.

yep. I think this is the case.