Andesine/Red Laboradite - Does it matter

[MJO]

Does it really matter if a stone is Andesine or Red Laboradite? Doesn't it only matter the beauty of the stone? Attached are some pictures of some of my Andesine and Red Laboardite (Oregon Sunstone) Some of the sunstone are a lighter and brighter color than the Andesine.

 

[MJO]

The large Andesine is an 18.86ct and the smaller pendent is 8cts

 

[Linda W]

Yes, the beauty of a stone does count. But...... if I pay for an Andesine and receive a Red Lab, I will not be a happy camper.


Linda

 

[MJO]

Assorted Andesine and Oregon Sunstone.

 

[Linda W]

I''m sorry, I didn''t know you were selling stones. I was referring to my Andesine I purchased on DSN.


Linda

 

[MJO]

Hi Linda,

I''m not selling. These are part of my collection.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[MJO]

Green Andesine and Oregon Sunstone. Can you tell the difference. Largest is 11+ cts

 

[Linda W]

Maurice, your collection is BEAUTIFUL.



Linda

 

[MJO]

Hi Linda,

Thank you. What I am trying to say is there is such a fine line between Andesine and Red Laboradite that the color and clarity matters most. Extra fine Red Laboradite is just has hard to find as Extra Fine Andesine. Average stones maybe different but the best of either I would be willing to pay the same.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[Linda W]

Hi Maurice,

You are so right. I am really looking forward to receiving my andesine stone from DSN. It is a 3.43 carat. I hope the color and clarity is there. If not, I will return it. I would like to have it made into a ring.

Could you please tell me the hardness of this stone??? Would I be better off making it into a pendant? I wouldn''t want to bang it and chip it. That is why I don''t wear my Tanzanite ring very often.

Linda

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 2/16/2006 12:43:51 PM
Author: Linda W



I am really looking forward to receiving my andesine stone from DSN...I would like to have it made into a ring...Could you please tell me the hardness of this stone???

Most feldspars, which include the very closely related plagioclases labradorite and andesine, are about the same hardness as Tanzanite: 6 to 6.5 on the Mohs scale.

I agree entirely with Maurice that there should be no distinction in value between the two (although who knows what the follow-the-leader market will do?) The difference is so slight that expensive optical and X-ray analysis is needed to separate them. As one famed gemologist writes: "In many cases faceted gems are identified as a feldspar in the plagioclase series, but the finder does not have the instrumentation needed to pin down the species."

 

[Linda W]

Thank you Richard for the info.

I guess with that big of a stone I ordered, maybe a pendant would be best. If I do decide on a ring, I will only wear it on special "dates" with my hubby, like I do my tanzanite ring.

Linda

 

[MJO]

Date: 2/16/2006 1:16:37 PM
Author: Richard M.

Date: 2/16/2006 12:43:51 PM
Author: Linda W



I am really looking forward to receiving my andesine stone from DSN...I would like to have it made into a ring...Could you please tell me the hardness of this stone???

Most feldspars, which include the very closely related plagioclases labradorite and andesine, are about the same hardness as Tanzanite: 6 to 6.5 on the Mohs scale.

I agree entirely with Maurice that there should be no distinction in value between the two (although who knows what the follow-the-leader market will do?) The difference is so slight that expensive optical and X-ray analysis is needed to separate them. As one famed gemologist writes: ''In many cases faceted gems are identified as a feldspar in the plagioclase series, but the finder does not have the instrumentation needed to pin down the species.''

I definately agree with Richard M. I would use it in a pendent for everyday use and in a ring for occassional light wear.

Richard I have a question for you. Most shiller in Oregon sunstone is copper and a copper color. I do have some stones that posess a silver shiller. This shiller is only seen in yellow/gold color sunstone as far as I can tell and is very rare even in that. Any idea''s on what it is?

Regards,
Maurice

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 2/16/2006 11:48:26 PM
Author: MJO
Richard I have a question for you. Most shiller in Oregon sunstone is copper and a copper color. I do have some stones that posess a silver shiller. This shiller is only seen in yellow/gold color sunstone as far as I can tell and is very rare even in that. Any idea''s on what it is?

Not really. The feldspars are ridiculously complex and it''s very hard to sort them out chemically. That problem is compounded by the imprecise use of terminology and it all gives me a headache. The stuff from Tanzania that was making waves in Tucson a year ago showed aventurescence, not schiller. Ditto the famous spangly feldspar ''sunstone'' from India that resembles the man-made glass with copper inclusions called goldstone.

The use of the name ''schiller'' for the Oregon material seems wrong to me -- but who am I to argue it? Hmmm, a bit of further research tells me I''m in good company. John Sinkankas writes: "The [Oregon] sunstone grains display weak to strong aventurescence due to hosts of extremely small platey inclusions if a reddish-orange mineral, which at one time was stated to be copper. This misidentification was made in a paper by O. Anderson (1917)...it is certainly not copper and much more likely to be hematite." (He also mentions the iron mineral goethite as a possible source of aventurescence).

Sinkankas is flatly contradicted the This source. But this guy uses ''schiller'' and ''aventurescence'' interchangeably, which they''re not. He also doesn''t cite a source for the research on copper. I''ve never heard of copper crystallizing in a form like that supposedly seen in the Oregon labradorite. It may be so but color me not yet totally convinced. My spectroscope setup is temporarily out of service or I''d try to detect Cu in a couple of my stones. Maybe someone can point us to the research that will sort this all out.

Regards,

Richard M.

 

[MJO]

Date: 2/17/2006 1:26:42 AM
Author: Richard M.

Date: 2/16/2006 11:48:26 PM
Author: MJO
Richard I have a question for you. Most shiller in Oregon sunstone is copper and a copper color. I do have some stones that posess a silver shiller. This shiller is only seen in yellow/gold color sunstone as far as I can tell and is very rare even in that. Any idea''s on what it is?

Not really. The feldspars are ridiculously complex and it''s very hard to sort them out chemically. That problem is compounded by the imprecise use of terminology and it all gives me a headache. The stuff from Tanzania that was making waves in Tucson a year ago showed aventurescence, not schiller. Ditto the famous spangly feldspar ''sunstone'' from India that resembles the man-made glass with copper inclusions called goldstone.

The use of the name ''schiller'' for the Oregon material seems wrong to me -- but who am I to argue it? Hmmm, a bit of further research tells me I''m in good company. John Sinkankas writes: ''The [Oregon] sunstone grains display weak to strong aventurescence due to hosts of extremely small platey inclusions if a reddish-orange mineral, which at one time was stated to be copper. This misidentification was made in a paper by O. Anderson (1917)...it is certainly not copper and much more likely to be hematite.'' (He also mentions the iron mineral goethite as a possible source of aventurescence).

Sinkankas is flatly contradicted the This source. But this guy uses ''schiller'' and ''aventurescence'' interchangeably, which they''re not. He also doesn''t cite a source for the research on copper. I''ve never heard of copper crystallizing in a form like that supposedly seen in the Oregon labradorite. It may be so but color me not yet totally convinced. My spectroscope setup is temporarily out of service or I''d try to detect Cu in a couple of my stones. Maybe someone can point us to the research that will sort this all out.

Regards,

Richard M.

Hello Richard,

Most "shiller" in Oregon Sunstone has to be copper. When the sun hits it it turns the color of a brand new copper penny. All other sunstone I have seen the shiller is like old oxidized copper, a much browner color. Even the inclussions in the Tanzanitan Illussions stone. In the congo tibetan stones the shiller seems to be whitish hazey inclussions. This is just from observation and in the stones I own.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 2/17/2006 10:07:46 AM
Author: MJO


Most ''shiller'' in Oregon Sunstone has to be copper. When the sun hits it it turns the color of a brand new copper penny. All other sunstone I have seen the shiller is like old oxidized copper, a much browner color. Even the inclussions in the Tanzanitan Illussions stone. In the congo tibetan stones the shiller seems to be whitish hazey inclussions. This is just from observation and in the stones I own.

Maurice, I''m not taking a pro- or anti-copper position, LOL. I''m just trying to locate the more recent scientific studies that looked into it. When (the sadly late) Capt. John Sinkankas made a pronouncement I really paid attention and still do!

I''ve panned a lot of ''gold'' that wasn''t and have seen many mineral inclusions that turned out to be something other than what they appeared to be. Consider the coppery-appearing rutile inclusions in clear quartz as an example (the reddish type, not the gold). Despite appearances titanium isn''t copper. I''ll remain on the look-out for answers.

Meanwhile, the Congo-Chinese-Tibetan labradorite/andesine mystery continues. The current Gems & Gemology carries a piece on it. It seems frankly skeptical of Congo origins. "Since this colorful ''Congolese'' plagioclase first appeared on the market in 2002," it says, "various gem dealers have attempted to verify its origin and obtain rough material, but both endeavors proved elusive. Some dealers pointed to China as the most likely source of the material..."

Again, I don''t have a dog in this fight: I report, you decide. The article says plagioclase, presumably from Tibet, was tested by GIA at the 2005 Tucson Show using "energy-dispersive X-ray spectroscopy...and indicated that the feldspar was andesine (An46) with traces of Fe, Cu and Ti."

The same article discusses an analysis of alleged Congolese material reported in the Spring 2002 Gem News International. Tests on three red samples indicated they were andesine "with less than 50% anorthite content." A later study of green, pale yellow and colorless samples showed they were labradorite "with an anorthite content of An52-55" [M.S. Krzemnicki, "Red and green labradorite feldspar from Congo," Journal of Gemmology, Vol. 29, No. 1, 2003, pp. 15-23].

I''ll hopefully be talking with some of my local plagioclase peddlers next week to try to learn more. BTW, I''m aware of the claims made on the French site about red andesine.

 

[MJO]

Hello Richard,

If you hear anything more please let me know. I''ve been collecting sunstone for a number of years now and am still looking for EX FINE reds and greens. Please let me know.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[colormyworld]

I just thought I'd post a picture of a labradorite/andesine (haven't had it tested) It is 11.99 ct I bought it in an internet auction from a company that is also on the t.v.. I don't know how it could be any more saturated in color.

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In person it looks stop light red. I wish I'd bought some greens.

 

[Linda W]

WOW, that is Beautiful. I bought my stone from DSN (Direct Shopping Network) I can''t wait to receive it.


Linda

 

[MJO]

Date: 2/17/2006 5:00:30 PM
Author: colormyworld
I just thought I''d post a picture of a labradorite/andesine (haven''t had it tested) It is 11.99 ct I bought it in an internet auction from a company that is also on the t.v.. I don''t know how it could be any more saturated in color.

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In person it looks stop light red. I wish I''d bought some greens.

Hi Colormyworld,


Wana sell????? It''s lovely.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[colormyworld]

I think I''ll hold on to it for a while. Thanks for the offer though.

 

[Linda W]

Are the greens more valuable than the red''s or are they equal? The other night I was watching and they had some stones with both colors in them. They went so fast, I didn''t even get a chance to dial the phone number.


Linda

 

[tibetansunstonetrader]

Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to begin by thanking PriceScope Admin for excusing my faux pas in my introductory thread and also to apologize for my blatant, albeit inadvertent advertising. So, I am just here to be with others who love gems and share my personal experience.

I''m in a bit of a pickle because I''ve joined the trade in a rather serendipitous way and I''m still learning more and more about this wonderful world of gemstones.
My initial introduction to gemstones came from a TV show. Although I was familiar with jewelry through the retail trade, I was never emotionally involved with the experience. I started out as a curious shopper, checking out material from the different shows and ended up educating myself through research as time progressed.

I have accumulated some stones of other types but one stone that I was very intrigued with, was one day for sale on one of the TV shows (TV1). They were red and pretty and I purchased some. As it ended up, I was able to get green and orange as well. The stones were sold as Red Labradorite and the TV Host mentioned that some of their customers/vendors, advised them that the material should be sold as Andesine. The TV Host said that they knew that in order for them to unequivocably say that the material was Andesine, the "Labradorite" must contain certain mineral elements - since they could not test all the material, they felt more comfortable calling it "Labradorite" until they could provide conclusive results from testing. As of this week, TV1 says that these results are forthcoming soon.

In November of 2005, I was watching another TV show that was selling the "last of their Andesine". I was able to purchase red, green and orange material. At this point, I decided to take them to my local lab for appraisal. This is where the fun started.

Rather than ramble on, material from TV1 tested as all Labradorite and material from TV2 tested as Andesine for the red and Labradorite for the green and orange. So needless to say, I had a long conversation with the lab and we concluded that more information was needed in order to determine why some of the stones were showing up with similar numbers. (I will show what I mean when I get a minute to type that up).

Because of this curious turn of events, I became more intrigued and purchased more stones from other sources. I have sent all the stones out and the lab is sending them out to a university for more involved testing.

Regardless of where these stones are ultimately from, they are beautiful and I am very happy owning what I have. From a trademember standpoint, I feel it can only be good for the consumer and the industry to know what the material is and exactly where it''s from.

I now have material from 4 sources and still need to acquire from 1 or 2 more vendors. That should be a fairly good sampling of what''s out there and the testing should be able to provide some good insight into the situation.

As far as discussion about rough that I have noticed, I can only contribute my personal knowledge. I was personally told by a mine owner at Tucson that this mine owner donated 3 faceted and 1 rough to the Smithsonian representative. Perhaps if other mine owners did the same and requested assistance from the Smithsonian (I don''t know if I am even close to how it works), various experts in the trade could perhaps lend their knowledge to the unraveling of any mysteries or confusion regarding origin. I''m guessing it''s very expensive to conduct these tests?

Just for the record, I already love the stone, I know it''s value to me and only time will tell what happens next.


Thanks for letting me share.

GS

 

[MJO]

Date: 2/17/2006 8:09:38 PM
Author: Linda W
Are the greens more valuable than the red''s or are they equal? The other night I was watching and they had some stones with both colors in them. They went so fast, I didn''t even get a chance to dial the phone number.


Linda

The Greens are rarer but I think stoplight red stones are going to be the most valuable (they are called spinel red). I collect both. I think the red color is more pleasing to the eye and bright. There aren''t many natural bright and stoplight red stones. Lets say good pendent size 5ct red. Ruby, 2 million that bright red and clean? Spinel, $10,000 easily. Rubilite, Never seen one that big bright and clean. The Brazillian stones are included and the Nigerian ones turn brown in incandecent lighting. Rhodocrosite, You could never mount it much less wear it. Cherry fire Opal, not that bright. Too me in top color it is the ultimate red stone.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[Linda W]

Thank you Maurice for your wisdom. Now I am thinking of just saving my stone and not making either a ring or a pendant out of it.

Linda

 

[MJO]

Date: 2/17/2006 8:55:16 PM
Author: Linda W
Thank you Maurice for your wisdom. Now I am thinking of just saving my stone and not making either a ring or a pendant out of it.

Linda

Hi Linda,

Do not let me talk you out of it. It is beautiful and that is why we buy jewlery. I just think a it should be worn in earings or pendents since they don''t take that much abuse. Plus it should not be worn every day. I like special peices for special occassions.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[Linda W]

I would love to have a pair of earrings, but they always sell out by the time I get through to a phone operator.

I think next time, I will just buy a few small stones and have them made into earrings.


Linda

 

[MJO]

Date: 2/17/2006 9:50:50 PM
Author: Linda W
I would love to have a pair of earrings, but they always sell out by the time I get through to a phone operator.

I think next time, I will just buy a few small stones and have them made into earrings.


Linda

Hello Linda,

It looks like I''m going to be right about the red. I just heard that Tiffany is featuring Red Sunstone in it''s new advertising. A $30,000 peice without much diamonds featuring the beauty of the stone itself. I don''t know anything else but the that it is in print already. I am supposed to getting a copy of the ad next week.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[Linda W]

Good Morning Maurice,


WOW, that is something about Tiffany. We visited their store once and I drooled.

You will get a laugh out of this. I was watching a jewelry show last night on a shopping network and the host was showing red labradorite. Well, he went on to say that red labradorite used to be called andesine. I thought, well now where did he get that from?

I still want to get some small stones to make earrings out of. I hope they show some soon on my other show that I watch.

Linda

 

[MJO]

Date: 2/19/2006 12:10:03 PM
Author: Linda W
Good Morning Maurice,


WOW, that is something about Tiffany. We visited their store once and I drooled.

You will get a laugh out of this. I was watching a jewelry show last night on a shopping network and the host was showing red labradorite. Well, he went on to say that red labradorite used to be called andesine. I thought, well now where did he get that from?

I still want to get some small stones to make earrings out of. I hope they show some soon on my other show that I watch.

Linda

http://cgi.ebay.com/LABRADORITE-GEMSTONES-LOT-OF-2_W0QQitemZ8904793181QQcategoryZ282QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I edited this in after posting. For some reason it doesn't go to the exact auction. The auction number is 8904793181

This ebay auction goes off in 4 hours.

Maurice