An email exchange with David Klass. Regarding copying other vendors' custom works.

[yssie]

Background: David Klass created a CAD to copy a very unique, truly one-of-a-kind ring that I had made ten years ago by another vendor.

I will post my full email exchange with Klass here, as I promised in my now-removed Mothra thread. If I may, I will encourage PSers to ask themselves two questions as they read this:
1. What responsibilities does/should a vendor have regarding avoiding copying other vendors' one-of-a-kind works?
2. If a vendor's professional behaviours happen to be at odds with you personal principles, can you pinpoint a dollar value that makes the savings "worth" supporting that vendor?

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This is the ring in question, for context. David Klass' CAD on left, my original (fully handforged by a vendor in NZ ten years ago) on the right.

I want to be very clear here that the customer did NOT ask Klass to copy my ring. Klass chose to copy my ring wholly of his own volition, in response to the customer's ask and set of inspiration photos (which included my ring and other unrelated pieces). The customer didn't realize that the CAD was a 1:1 copy of mine until it was shared on PS.



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Email: Me to David Klass:


[PHOTO ABOVE, LEFT]

[PHOTO ABOVE, RIGHT]

[SIGNATURE REDACTED]

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Email: David Klass to me:

[GREETING WITH NAME REDACTED]
[SIGNATURE REDACTED]

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Email: Me to David Klass:


[SIGNATURE REDACTED]

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Email: Me to David Klass:

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Email: David Klass to me:

[GREETING WITH NAME REDACTED]

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Email: Me to David Klass:


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Email: David Klass to me:

[GREETING WITH NAME REDACTED]


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Email: Me to David Klass:



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Email: David Klass to me:


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Email: Me to David Klass:



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Email: David Klass to me:

 

[yssie]

Emails: Me to David Klass:




[SIGNATURE REDACTED]

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I did not hear back. However, it seems David Klass alerted the customer to my emails and declined to make the ring per his CAD. Again, the customer did NOT ask Klass to copy my ring. Again, Klass chose to copy my ring wholly of his own volition, in response to the customer's ask and set of inspiration photos (which included pieces other than my ring). Again, the customer didn't even realize the CAD was a copy of mine until they shared on PS.

And I remain angry.

I reached out to nearly all the jewellers I've ever worked with. All but two of those I spoke with (10/12) recognized the name David Klass and had negative commentary - due to prior experiences with him copying their work. One jeweller I spoke with who didn't recognize the name is a pearls specialist; the other works in Thailand. I have not asked permission to publicise those communications - but I wouldn't anyway, frankly, some folks were exceedingly blunt with their frustratrations.

David Klass is very popular on this forum at this time.
Are the professional values espoused in this email exchange the values this forum supports?

 

[yssie]

I just realized that I need to clarify one point:

The customer explained on PS that they had sent David Klass a number of inspirations, of which mine was one, and that at no point had they requested a copy of any of those inspiration pieces. That they had assumed the product would be an amalgam of many of those ideas. And I completely believe them - it was very clear from their posts on PS that they hadn’t realized that my ring had been copied point by point.

However, note that David Klass states that he doesn’t make copies, he simply makes what the customer comes to him with. A direct implication that in this case his customer did, in fact, ask for exactly that, and he simply fulfilled the request.

Not pretty, folks. Vendor point blank offloading full responsibility for this mishap onto his customer. (Well, and me, for posting in public to begin with). But my trust remains with the customer.

 

[purplesilk]

@yssie: I' m sorry you're angry and disgusted, but I think David Klass should not be blamed because:
- you posted detailed pictures in a public forum;
- you don't have proof of legally enforcable trademark;
- if a customer provides inspiration picture , it's obvious that the jeweller sticks to the pictures to keep to customer satisfied: why should the jeweller change something that can be rejected by the customer?
- it's moral since there' no legal and enforcable prohibition.

Again and sincerely, I'm really sorry for you, but I think you're wrong.

Best to you,
purplesilk

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

@yssie, I understand that you’re upset because it’s your custom design etc. but I do see David’s point - if the pictures shared with him did not have another practicing jeweler’s logo on them, how would he know if it wasn’t free domain (I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know the exact term I’m looking for). Besides, there are a zillion posts on PS alone about how to get an exact (or as exact as possible) version of the Tiffany setting; how to get as close as possible to The One by HW setting etc. so it’s not as if big brand designs aren’t copied extensively either (and imo there’s a difference between copying a ring setting and copying something like Cartier Love which is super distinctive). I do think in this case if he declined to make the ring once it was pointed out to him by you that you don’t want him to that’s perfectly reasonable. I don’t think it is feasible to expect him to know right off that what designs are more “public” and what aren’t.

Just my $0.02. I do understand that it is emotionally taxing - I have been on the receiving end where I designed a pair of earrings myself (and I really did ALL the work, like chose the specific angle and size that each stone would be set at) and then my jeweler ended up copying that design and selling it to others. But I got over it, because I recognised that it’s the risk you run when your designs become “public”.

I am sorry that you feel so badly about it, though.

 

[missy]

@yssie I see your point of view. The only thing you can do is not share your photos anymore. We all lose because your pieces are gorgeous and your taste impeccable. I am sorry you are going through this and I am sorry you are so upset.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Did something happen recently that caused you to delete your Mothra thread? Granted, it’s not really my business, but this just seems to be very out of the blue and that was such an amazing post. It’s unfortunate you felt you had to delete it, it’s not everyday you see such a work of art on PS.

 

[kenny]

Yissie, sorry you're going through this.

I was pretty angry when I noticed my macro FCD pics being used by an FCD vendor on their website.
Now I just register the compliment move on.
I accept that, good bad right or wrong, this is just the way of the world now that the Internet makes "stealing" so easy.

Now if I don't want my macro pics stolen, I don't post them or I superimpose a ©KENNY across the center of the image where it can't be cropped off.

 

[yssie]

To be honest I’m not emotional about this thread at all. I feel strongly about this vendor, absolutely, but this thread, no. I waited several days to post this to ensure I’m in this state of mind and okay walking away if that’s what’s best for me

I’m genuinely curious to see if my principles align with PS general zeitgeist or not. So if folks disagree with my perspective I won’t take it personally and I won’t be trying to “convince” anyone, I will simply register that disagreement, and who it comes from, and decide how that impacts my actions moving forward.

I think my views on this issue have been etched in proverbial stone tablets for a long time, so noone’s going to be surprised

I’ll reply to clarify things as needed or requested though -


@AllAboardTheBlingTrain I always make the distinction between “my vendor” and “me” on this topic. My vendors, the people who do the bulk of the work of bringing an idea to life, will always have my full support remaking and selling anything they create for me! My perspective: My vendors are the only vendors who are entitled to profit off something we made together.

Occasionally vendors themselves won’t reproduce pieces they themselves make. This is the case with RDG.

However, I have in the past offered to have someone reach out to me personally to ask about replicating something - that’s for two reasons. First, because I know how my vendor will feel about it, and second, because I can broker an introduction to my vendor if desired - for either direct communication or for having that piece made. Sometimes it’s just a matter of two people being able to get in touch


@YadaYadaYada Yes. Klass copied my RDG. I don’t want to see Klass copy my bracelet one day, and unfortunately my photos are liabilities, so I had the thread removed.


@purplesilk I’m not a lawyer. And this is further complicated by the fact that RDG was based in NZ and the owners now have a new company. I suspect those two facts render any legalities unenforceable - not, at least, without throwing more money at the issue than boutique jewellers generally have. I’m fascinated by Klass’ perspective on the moral distinction, and I was curious about other vendors’ who’ve had their custom works copied by him, and I’m interested to read yours.

Aside from ethics conversations, blindly replicating pieces of unknown origin seems a dangerous business practice in general. Because there are houses that maintain their trademarks (or whatever else is needed!) and have deep pockets to enforce them, and with neither diligence to determine legality nor effort to alter an inspiration - running afoul of those maintained and enforceable and enforced trademarks seems inevitable.

 

[stracci2000]

Perhaps the PSer should have asked your permission to share the image of your ring with DK.
You would have declined, and all of this would never have happened.

 

[yssie]

@kenny I recall. And I was angry for you at that time, because your photos are works of art that take substantial time and effort.

Anything I don’t want copied, in future, I will either refrain from sharing on here or watermark just as you do. In my case, though, it’s the product that’s being copied, not the photo - and I feel the vendor is the “owner” of the product - so here’s an example. Isn’t it just horrid to look at



@stracci2000 The PSer truly didn’t realize the CAD was a replica of mine.

They trusted that the vendor - who came recommended from PS initially - would create something unique. Multiple PSers who frequently work with Klass explained in the customer’s now-removed thread that when they work with him, they make a point to alter the design from their inspirations themselves, “because I know that he’ll copy as-is” (quote). So they accept that the responsibility to avoid that is on them. But that’s not an onus I would ever expect a vendor to place on a customer so I don’t blame the PSer for not expecting this outcome.

In this specific case - it’s actually worse. By stating that he doesn’t make exact copies, he just makes what customers give him, he is directly implying to me that this customer gave him photos of my ring and asked for it to be copied - which was not what happened here, I have zero doubt.

 

[lissyflo]

@yssie: I' m sorry you're angry and disgusted, but I think David Klass should not be blamed because:
- you posted detailed pictures in a public forum;
- you don't have proof of legally enforcable trademark;
- if a customer provides inspiration picture , it's obvious that the jeweller sticks to the pictures to keep to customer satisfied: why should the jeweller change something that can be rejected by the customer?
- it's moral since there' no legal and enforcable prohibition.

Again and sincerely, I'm really sorry for you, but I think you're wrong.

Best to you,
purplesilk

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I do think it’s important to say that just because something isn’t illegal it doesn’t make it right.

 

[purplesilk]

My local jeweller sells his designs to big jewellery companies ... that 's what he says:
reproduction (even the same exact copy) is ok,
putting a fake brand logo is against laws , stamping fake precious metal content is illegal.
If you post pictures on a pubblic forum, you should be aware that they can be seen and used by anyone.
My rules:
I never got the exact copy of someone else's jewels because I like to add my personal "touch";
if I'm emotionally attached to a jewel and I'd be upset if someone else got the same exact object, I don't post on the net.
Again just my opinion.

 

[House Cat]

It would have been nice if he would have taken some personal responsibility. Simply agreeing not to copy THIS PIECE doesn’t seem to clear up the ethical dilemma presented in this email exchange.

 

[musicloveranthony]

That really sucks!! I would be really sad if this happened with one of my designs. I know it isn't illegal, but it's still poopy behavior to not at least take accountability and apologize

 

[Matata]

Yssie, I know this has been an issue for you for a long time. I'll repeat what I've said before, generally speaking there's nothing new under the sun. Claiming a piece is one-on-a-kind is difficult to defend because there is no way to know how much one has been influenced throughout time by things owned/created by others. Designers concerned about their work being copied should engrave their pieces with a "original design do not copy" warning. I doubt many of them could do so as I doubt many of their pieces are original in every aspect.

Apparently there are differences in the psychological motivations of jewelry owners who don't care about their personal jewelry being copied and those who do. Perhaps examining your motivations would help bring you some peace about things that you can't control. Even if you never post another piece of jewelry in the public domain again, I suspect someone else would eventually post their piece that they think is one-of-a-kind/unique and which looks exactly like or closely resembles one of yours, or mine, or some other member's here.

Your challenge to members here about how willing they are to compromise your ethical standards to save money on a piece is arrogant. Live your standards well and proudly but don't try to impose them on others.

If there is legal standing to stop Klass from copying what someone believes is an original one-of-a-kind piece, they should take advantage of the legal system to do so. Whichever side wins sets the precedent for the future.

 

[mrs-b]

Interesting thread.

I agree with not copying other designers' pieces exactly, and have advocated for that on PS a bunch of times.

However, what I've never understood in this (ongoing over years) argument is why the person who knew full well this was your design, included it in the inspiration photos they sent.

And just on that point - I never saw the CADs the PS member were sent - were they exactly the same as your ring? And if the customer sent a bunch of photos and *didn't* ask for yours to be exactly copied, why would DKJ specifically pick yours to copy? Because DKJ doesn't work like that, so I feel as tho we're missing something here. In my experience of something like this, the first CAD is a starting point which is then changed from there. Was the client told this was the finished piece? Or was this more of a "Here's a CAD, we'll work on it to make it yours from here" situation?

But my main question is - what's the customer's responsibility in this? And - did they forward your sketches WITH the maker's stamp on it, as I believe was on the original drawing you were sent when making this ring (I am very familiar with every photo of this ring you've ever posted on PS!), or did they purposely crop them, and if so - why? Could it be to purposely mislead DKJ into thinking this was a more generic design than it actually is? I think when clients purposely act in a misleading manner, the blame should be shared, at best.

Like DKJ said in their emails, I don't want to get pulled into an ongoing debate on morality, but I would encourage you to recognize that you came on very strong, and then accused people who have no idea who you are of being unwilling to enter into a discussion on morality and ethics. I can tell you for nothing, Yssie, if a stranger contacted me, accused me of a bunch of stuff, then wanted to enter into a lengthy debate about ethics, I wouldn't do it, either. To you, DKJ is a known quantity (tho I also believe you have never had a good grasp on who they are, personally); to them, you are a complete stranger.

And I think one distinction is very important to make here. DKJ was given a design and asked to copy it - whether it be to a greater or lesser degree. They have never been accused, to the best of my knowledge, of trawling the websites of others, and stealing their designs knowingly from their sites. Their fault here, in my opinion, is in not asking the provenance of the photos they're sent. I think that should always be a starting point in an exchange with a client asking for this sort of service - to protect themselves as much as anyone else.

I'll be honest with you tho, Yssie, and say I'm not a fan of the idea that you've obviously been discussing DKJ with other jewelers, and are now here basically doing that schoolyard thing - "I think you're creepy - and all my friends think so too!" With this sort of complaint, I think you need to speak for yourself, and let other people speak for themselves. Anything else is just gossip.

Having said all of that - let me add - the ring in question is my favorite ring on PriceScope. I've come out and said that more than once, and I stand by it. In my opinion, that ring should NEVER be copied - and I'm soothed by the fact that I don't believe anyone except the original designer/jeweler COULD copy it. It's unique. It's a masterpiece.

More than anything, tho, I'm sorry that you've been upset. I know this is a really tough time for you, and I'm sorry this situation has coincided with everything else you have going on.

Can you develop your own watermark so you can protect your pieces without destroying your beautiful photos? Your photos are outstanding and your pieces unique and the height of creativity, and, if you were to remove them, PriceScope would be the lesser because of it.

 

[Ionysis]

Am I missing something? It isn’t an exact replica. Aren’t there two side stones vs three each side?

I’ve had designs made and have been thrilled and flattered when my jeweller has added another similar or even identical piece to his own shop inventory. It will never be an exact match anyway because stones are all different- especially if using coloured stones.

I think there is a big difference between trying to pass something off as a specific, particularly branded, item (making a deliberate knock off) and making jewellery from a photo found on the internet.

Not sure why people make such a ridiculous fuss about it frankly. Doesn’t make me think badly of David Klass in any way.

 

[yssie]

@Matata It’s been a hot button issue for me for a long time.

I do wish PS had a facility to share things only with members with # posts or # tenure. Seems like it would eliminate some of these situations. On the other fora I dabble on it doesn’t diminish traffic to the fully-public arenas. But I can also understand if this poses an excessive moderation burden. Just my wishlist!


@mrs-b I was absolutely furious when I wrote the initial email, and the responses I received merely made me more angry, and I know that shows through the exchange. It seemed only fair to share exactly as is, with no needless redactions. Unflattering to me though that fact may be.

I personally feel the customer’s responsibility in any moral debate pales in comparison to the vendor’s - I can’t tell if that’s clear from my posts so far. So let me clarify that just in case.

I consider many of my vendors friends, as I know you do as well. And their work is their livelihood - so other vendors copying the fabric of their livelihood often actually just comes up without prompting. So in some cases this was merely a rehash of prior conversations - but in some it was a brand new topic that I raised. I’m comfortable with having done so, as there was no other way for me to find out if this opinion (that he doesn’t make exact copies) was shared by industry colleagues. I can completely understand that this makes people who consider him a personal friend uncomfortable, though, and I’m sorry that had to be outcome.

 

[yssie]

@Ionysis You are entitled to your opinion and I’m glad you feel comfortable sharing it.

I have also had jewellers add custom pieces that they made for me to their stock/inventory, and have been thoroughly chuffed. Those vendors have every right to profit off their designs. I won’t re-explain here but one of my earlier responses (to allaboardtheblingtrain) has more explanation on how I feel and why I think this topic is worth raising.

In any case, in the original thread multiple long-time David Klass customers were very explicit about taking on personal responsibility for avoiding having him copy other vendors’ works. So it seems the fact that he does make exact copies isn’t actually in question by many people, including his own customer base! And down the rabbit hole we go from there.

 

[Ionysis]

I didn’t mean to be offensive Yssie - I just genuinely don’t get it because I wouldn’t feel the same way at all. But I suppose we all feel differently about things, or else it would be a dull world.

I guess I just don’t think it is a black and white “YTA” situation - to paraphrase Reddit and therefore to write an entire thread calling out this specific vendor and sharing emails is… rather excessive. And I’ve never worked with the vendor in question so no axe to grind.

 

[Niel]

He isn’t claiming to have invented the design nor passing it off as the original producer. I don’t have a moral issue. I’d have much more of a moral issue working with Mike, given his history.
Interesting to see where different people draw the line.

DKs people seem professional and respectful in this interaction.

 

[yssie]

@Ionysis No offense taken on my end, no worries, I am genuinely glad you are comfortable sharing a differing opinion. This thread is for me to share an exchange as promised, understand general PS sensibilities, and decide what I’ll do moving forward.

@Niel Don’t get me wrong, I won’t be working with Mike Robinson again.

 

[mrs-b]

@mrs-b I was absolutely furious when I wrote the initial email, and the responses I received merely made me more angry, and I know that shows through the exchange. It seemed only fair to share exactly as is, with no needless redactions. Unflattering to me though that fact may be.

I personally feel the customer’s responsibility in any moral debate pales in comparison to the vendor’s - I can’t tell if that’s clear from my posts so far. So let me clarify that just in case.

I consider many of my vendors friends, as I know you do as well. And their work is their livelihood - so other vendors copying the fabric of their livelihood often actually just comes up without prompting. So in some cases this was merely a rehash of prior conversations - but in some it was a brand new topic that I raised. I’m comfortable with having done so, as there was no other way for me to find out if this opinion (that he doesn’t make exact copies) was shared by industry colleagues. I can completely understand that this makes people who consider him a personal friend uncomfortable, though, and I’m sorry that had to be outcome.

In any case, in the original thread multiple long-time David Klass customers were very explicit about taking on personal responsibility for avoiding having him copy other vendors’ works. So it seems the fact that he does make exact copies isn’t actually in question by anyone except himself! And down the rabbit hole we go from there.

Hi Yssie -

So I just got off the phone with DKJ re this situation, because I DO know them and have talked with them many times about this situation. I know their frustration and the number of times they've been sent photos of other designers' pieces, and have responded to the would-be client that they are unable to replicate the work of other designers, unless they're vintage. I know this is standard practice for them.

The timeline, as I understand it, was that DKJ had some interaction with the client, which resulted in the client sending them a selection of 5 photos as inspiration photos.

Amy then asked the client to pick one as a starting point, telling them that they would then modify from there to get a unique design. She chose your ring, and a working CAD was made. But at that point, the client then posted on PS asking for suggestions.

Meanwhile, Amy came up with what was supposed to be the first modified CAD, which I do not believe you saw, but which she just sent me. And I should also note, the starting CAD has been destroyed. This was the first iteration after initial changes, but - again - not the final iteration. And this is upside down for some reason, so - sorry about that.




In the meantime, and after 2 free CADs, the client disappeared, and now we have this thread.

This "we'll take an idea and modify from there" is completely in keeping with my experiences with DKJ, and a process common for them. As time has gone by, they've tried increasingly to avoid the designs of others, but, unlike you, I still believe that the person who sneakily pics a ring, removes a trademark stamp, then just sort of vaguely says "let's copy this...." - then posts it on PS before doing any of the modifications suggested to them and included in a latter CAD sent to them, has an agenda - and it's a self-serving one at best.

Anyway, I hope this brings some clarity. And to be very clear - there is nothing wrong with my morals or ethics, and I stand behind DKJ 100%. I know the personal pain this causes the people involved, and the depiction of them as uncaring, money-driven, design-stealing, morals-free business people is so far from the truth as to be flatly inaccurate.

I would strongly suggest you either call them or drop in to meet them. But if you do, try to do so with an open mind; sometimes our pre-judgments can be louder than the truth. For example, Amy said to me "Do you think she'd like to do a ring with us so she can see our process from the inside?" Personally, that's what I call transparency of the highest order.

ETA. I accidentally left out a couple of key steps in the timeline, but have now edited and added them, so this post may read differently to how it did when you first read it, if you read it very soon after I posted it.

 

[yssie]

@mrs-b There is a lot to take in from your post.

Let me first say that the secondary CAD you shared is beautiful. I would have feedback on it, yes - as its own unique and beautiful design.

The customer was horrified, in the original thread where this came up, as was I. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that they’ve decided to take a mental break from the project.

Regarding long-term practice - this vendor has a long-time reputation for copying other vendors’ pieces, unfortunately. I was expecting to receive confirmation that more diligence to determine origin of a piece will be done in future, however I was given no such reassurance in that email exchange. Quite the opposite. So whilst I do appreciate that this particular scenario has been avoided, and the CAD of my ring destroyed, any moral debate worth having remains, of both history and future practices.

Is David Klass willing to state that moving forward he won’t copy existent pieces unless he’s confident, in a best-effort sort of way, that their origins render them open for replication? And in cases of non-confidence - will always work with his customers to make meaningful design changes? I would be thrilled with this outcome, it would alleviate every single one of my concerns and frustrations. I say best effort because every vendor might make mistakes on this front occasionally - mistakes don’t matter. Process and effort to practice is the only thing that matters.

And that ring is really beautiful and I hope it comes to life one day.

 

[Niel]

Mike notwithstanding, actions by Leon in the past have been morally if not legally dubious.
CVB has been banned from this site for morally questionable behavior.

But those didn’t affect you directly so they aren’t getting this treatment, despite being jewelers you use.

one would think this might be less about morals and more about you being upset someone used your ring. To that point, you’re allowed your feelings. But recognizing how the internet works and how your content is controlled might do you well in the future.

 

[yssie]

@Niel, I don’t know what legally-questionable actions you feel Leon has undertaken, but that is a serious statement to toss out. I strongly suggest you reconsider doing so cavalierly. You’ll note that on this entire exchange with David Klass, I did nothing of the sort - there’s good reason for that.

CvB was banned because one of her associates was shilling, I believe? She and her associates left PS and haven’t returned. If what I’m thinking is actually correct - I don’t know, I never tried to confirm the story - that was a stupid decision. However, it caused harm to none of her industry colleagues. Just got her banned from PS.

Bigger issue here. You’re welcome to presume whatever you’d like regarding my motivations. You’re not welcome to throw out vague accusations of legal wrongdoing.

 

[Niel]

@Niel, I don’t know what legally-questionable actions you feel Leon has undertaken, but that is a serious statement to toss out. I strongly suggest you reconsider doing so cavalierly. You’ll note that on this entire exchange with David Klass, I did nothing of the sort - there’s good reason for that.

CvB was banned because one of her associates was shilling, I believe? She and her associates left PS and haven’t returned. If what I’m thinking is actually correct - I don’t know, I never tried to confirm the story - that was a stupid decision. However, it caused harm to none of her industry colleagues. Just got her banned from PS.

Bigger issue here. You’re welcome to presume whatever you’d like regarding my motivations. You’re not welcome to throw out vague accusations of legal wrongdoing.

Oh I think I am welcome to question the legality of his actions

 

[yssie]

What you say on the internet stays forever, and everything you say can always be traced back to you. That fact generally engenders a degree of self-restraint when it comes to accusing people of legal wrongdoing, but perhaps not in everyone. So you do you But as far as I can tell this has nothing to do with a discussion on the morality of copying jewellery, so if you’d be amenable to doing you in your own thread I’d be most appreciative.

Oh I think I am welcome to question the legality of his actions

 

[liaerfbv]

Yssie the way you’re coming at this is very hostile and seemingly calling out everyone who doesn’t agree with you on this issue as “immoral” which is a pretty slippery slope.

Also it’s pretty well documented that Leon held a PSer’s stone hostage due to a dispute and didn’t return it until attorneys were involved.