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am i correct to assume that a H&A stone cost about 8 % more..

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Dancing Fire

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than a non H&A stone of the same color/clarity grade ? would you pay the 8 % difference for the cream of the crop top ideal cut ?
 

AprilBaby

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Probably not.
 

geckodani

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For an engagement ring? Probably. For earrings or a pendant? Probably not.
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Hi DF,

I have thought about your question for a long time, and cannot really answer it. At least not the part about that claimed difference being correct.

To start, what is known as the H&A-effect can be acquired in many proportion-sets. These proportion-sets are not necessarily the best, and as such, even with H&A, these stones will not be the best looking. It is probably the main reason why there is a camp of non-believers in H&A and its positive effect on light performance. That is why we are anxiously waiting for scientific confirmation of our observations.

Back to topic: your original question also needs a definition of a non-H&A-stone, and I find this fairly difficult. You can have same weight, colour, clarity, that is clear. But does your comparison end if you take stones with the same average angles? I think that you can still find highly varying prices and performance-levels within this group.

All in all, I think that the difference in a real apple-to-apple-comparison is way smaller. But is very difficult to accurately define the apples.

Live long,
 

oldminer

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I think that people who have bought into the "importance" of H&A are definitely willing to pay a premium for this attribute. Those that think the H&A effect is a fortunate accident of fine cutting may be far less inclined to pay a premium for this visual effect which can only be fully observed on an unset diamond. Now, it would be way cool if a diamond could show both hearts and arrows when it is set. That might be some sort of commercial masterpiece.

Because there are believers and non-believers, there is a two tier market of asking prices and supposed values. Whether it is justified or not, it exists. I don't believe anyone would claim a particular percentage premium as a general rule although 8% might exist at some quality and size level. There are thousands of possible quality combinations, so 8% is likely wrong for the entire market as a whole.
 

Allison D.

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Date: 4/3/2009 10:05:37 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Hi DF,

I have thought about your question for a long time, and cannot really answer it. At least not the part about that claimed difference being correct.

To start, what is known as the H&A-effect can be acquired in many proportion-sets. These proportion-sets are not necessarily the best, and as such, even with H&A, these stones will not be the best looking. It is probably the main reason why there is a camp of non-believers in H&A and its positive effect on light performance. That is why we are anxiously waiting for scientific confirmation of our observations.

Back to topic: your original question also needs a definition of a non-H&A-stone, and I find this fairly difficult. You can have same weight, colour, clarity, that is clear. But does your comparison end if you take stones with the same average angles? I think that you can still find highly varying prices and performance-levels within this group.

All in all, I think that the difference in a real apple-to-apple-comparison is way smaller. But is very difficult to accurately define the apples.

Live long,
Paul''s post echoes my thoughts. Often times, the differences between the stones are not just the H&A pattern, so it''s a bit presumptive to assume that a price differential is solely attributable to H&A (or not).

I''ve posted in other threads examples of non-H&A stones that were priced on par with branded H&A stones to illustrate that it''s typically make-related factors that more heavily influence price.

Not AGS0s are created equal; not all GIA ex stones are created equal. Most grades include an acceptable range of specimens, and while it''s easier today than ever to identify if you''re in the right ballpark, diamonds are still not widgets. Their worth is based on the sum of their collective parts.
 

strmrdr

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This brings up the old question of at what point is it good enough.
There is really no set answer to that question.
I believe that face up optical symmetry with a good angle combination should be the min. that most people should shoot for.
Beyond that the performance benefits are had to prove with current science but there are other valid reasons to go beyond it.

The difference will be found in extreme lighting conditions and in scintilation which is little understood today other than that looks better or not to detail oriented people.

Myself I love the craftsmanship that goes into the best cut diamonds and that makes it worth it to me at internet premiums but not at hof premiums.
 

Dancing Fire

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Date: 4/3/2009 10:05:37 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Hi DF,

I have thought about your question for a long time, and cannot really answer it. At least not the part about that claimed difference being correct.

To start, what is known as the H&A-effect can be acquired in many proportion-sets. These proportion-sets are not necessarily the best, and as such, even with H&A, these stones will not be the best looking. It is probably the main reason why there is a camp of non-believers in H&A and its positive effect on light performance. That is why we are anxiously waiting for scientific confirmation of our observations.

Back to topic: your original question also needs a definition of a non-H&A-stone, and I find this fairly difficult. You can have same weight, colour, clarity, that is clear. But does your comparison end if you take stones with the same average angles? I think that you can still find highly varying prices and performance-levels within this group.

All in all, I think that the difference in a real apple-to-apple-comparison is way smaller. But is very difficult to accurately define the apples.

Live long,
Paul
yes, that very well could be the case.
 

Dancing Fire

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Date: 4/3/2009 12:00:52 PM
Author: strmrdr
This brings up the old question of at what point is it good enough.
There is really no set answer to that question.
I believe that face up optical symmetry with a good angle combination should be the min. that most people should shoot for.
Beyond that the performance benefits are had to prove with current science but there are other valid reasons to go beyond it.

The difference will be found in extreme lighting conditions and in scintilation which is little understood today other than that looks better or not to detail oriented people.

Myself I love the craftsmanship that goes into the best cut diamonds and that makes it worth it to me at internet premiums but not at hof premiums.
Karl
can you please post some images with different combo specs inside the H&A cuts? like...good,better and best combo.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 4/3/2009 8:31:11 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 4/3/2009 12:00:52 PM
Author: strmrdr
This brings up the old question of at what point is it good enough.
There is really no set answer to that question.
I believe that face up optical symmetry with a good angle combination should be the min. that most people should shoot for.
Beyond that the performance benefits are had to prove with current science but there are other valid reasons to go beyond it.

The difference will be found in extreme lighting conditions and in scintilation which is little understood today other than that looks better or not to detail oriented people.

Myself I love the craftsmanship that goes into the best cut diamonds and that makes it worth it to me at internet premiums but not at hof premiums.
Karl
can you please post some images with different combo specs inside the H&A cuts? like...good,better and best combo.
If you go to the hearts and arrows tutorial here on Pricescope you will find a link to HRD that takes you here
http://www.hrdantwerp.be/content/certification/certificates/additional_services/pdf/hearts_arrows_guidelines.pdf
which shows what standards they deem as being need for the patterns.

Somewhere in the HRD site there is also a chart with the proportions that produce H&A''s - I would liketo find it so that we can include it in the tutorial here.
If anyone can find it please let me or the administrators know.
 

strmrdr

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Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 4/3/2009 8:31:11 PM
Author: Dancing Fire


can you please post some images with different combo specs inside the H&A cuts? like...good,better and best combo.
HCA under 2 with some shallow pavilion combos filtered out for contrast reasons if used in a ring and some combos added back in that are at 41 pavilion or just over that have long lgf%.
See my pavilion mains article in the journal for proof that long lgf% can cancel out leakage.
 
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