AGS000 Stones

[AGBF]

In a thread about diamond color in "Diamond Hangout" the topic of the AGS000 rating came up. In the recent past to be called an AGS000 a diamond had to have ideal cut, ideal color (D), and ideal clarity (IF). An ideal CUT stone was colloquially referred to as an AGS000, but it wasn't correct.

Apparently AGS changed that and now the AGS000 is given to a stone with ideal cut in all three areas: proportions, symmetry, and polish.

Has this been discussed here before? There was still some confusion about it in the other thread and I have to admit that I was unaware of the change.

Deborah

 

[Kamuelamom]

In all honesty, I always thought AGS000 had only to do with the latter you mentioned. Goes to show how much *I* know.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Here is the link to the AGS site's FAQ (and the info that is causing the stir).

http://www.agslab.com/faq_consumer.html

Click on "Grading" and a list of FAQs appears.
Halfway down, rollover "What is an AGS '000' or Triple Zero?"

Surprise, surprise.

If no one here can clarify, perhaps someone at AGS will this week.

(reading it again)
Hmmm...It says 'Historically' is was 0 cut 0 color 0 clarity, but 'Astute' observers noticed 0 polish 0 sym 0 proportions...

Deb.  Does this mean we are history now?
Or just not astute?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

No you are definitely ASTUTE John

Adjective: astute (astuter,astutest) u''st(y)oot
Marked by practical hardheaded intelligence
"an astute tenant always reads the small print in a lease"
- sharp , shrewd

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/24/2005 2

1

0 AM
Author: JohnQuixote
Here is the link to the AGS site's FAQ (and the info that is causing the stir).

(snip)

Hmmm...It says 'Historically' is was 0 cut 0 color 0 clarity, but 'Astute' observers noticed 0 polish 0 sym 0 proportions...


Deb. Does this mean we are history now?

Or just not astute?

We are toast. Seriously. The AGS website ITSELF says that AGS is a source of consistency. (And who are we to question them, right?) Here we were thinking that the people who said "AGS000" were just using shorthand...but it turns out they were astute, not wrong or casual. That makes us toast.

Deb

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/24/2005
Author: JohnQuixote

If no one here can clarify, perhaps someone at AGS will this week.

This from AGS:

Technically an AGS triple zero was a diamond with a 0 grade in cut (Ideal), 0 in clarity (IF or Flawless) and 0 in Color (D). AGS 000. However, sellers (internet sellers at first) started calling diamonds with the 0 in cut triple zeros because proportions, polish & symmetry all had to be 0 to get the cut grade AGS 0.

AGS tried to address this, but it has entered the modern lexicon. It became an “if you can’t beat them, join them” thing.


Editorial:

I informed my source at AGS that there are sellers, internet and otherwise, who have always maintained the correct historical definition.

It’s regrettable that people on this side of the profession caused the dilution of a formerly unique term. For me the designation AGS 000 used to imply a “Holy Grail” of diamonds. It’s easy to imagine slick, anxious (or uninformed) sellers using a “hip” Triple Zero moniker to move any Ideal cut…

“Yes sir. You’ll love this beauty. Not only is it an eye-clean G, it’s a triple zero!”
And of course, there are many more Ideal cuts to sell than D Flawless Ideal cuts.

As misuse of a term becomes common there comes a point when it’s no longer misuse; It “enters the lexicon.” Now it’s conceivable that many sellers honestly don’t know the difference…thus the AGS decision. An entity like AGS does not sell. Neither can they control the patois used unless it appears in black and white on the report. I suppose AGS could have printed the words “Triple Zero!!!” and engraved a big smiley face on D Flawless Ideal DQDs, but one would think that would not be necessary.

One was wrong.

And so commercialism, enthusiasm and mediocrity corrupts another small idealistic concept. Just as interpretations of “Ideal” cut itself are misrepresented. Just as standards for H&A patterning are diluted.

In the past I’ve referred to an AGS 0 in cut as a “Triple Ideal” (if anything). I still will. To me the “Triple Zero” remains the paragon of DQD grading, even if I must grin and bear the new definition.

On the bright side, this allows me to appear long-of-tooth to consumers and fellow pros who don’t know the origins. “Come here Sonny… Let me tell you about the days when a Triple Zero meant a certain, special kind of diamond. Pull up a hover-chair. Okay, now. It all started with this chap named Tolkowsky…”

 

[AGBF]

I very much enjoyed reading what you wrote, JQ, but what is DQD grading? It sounds as if it is something very standard, but I would have to guess. Do tell.

Deb

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/26/2005 5:45:12 PM
Author: AGBF
I very much enjoyed reading what you wrote, JQ, but what is DQD grading? It sounds as if it is something very standard, but I would have to guess. Do tell.Deb

Hello Dearest Deb

DQD = the AGS Diamond Quality Document.
DQR = the AGS Diamond Quality Report.

They are both grading reports.

You may submit stones to be graded using either one, but the DQD is the only document which uses the word "Ideal" and assigns numerical grades. The DQR''s highest grade is excellent (making it more like a GIA cert, except it includes more proportions).

Here is a DQD.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Avast! ...A DQR.

Note that if this stone had been submitted for a DQD instead of a DQR it could have come back "Triple Ideal" (0 in cut) if the polish and symmetry were to be evaluated as ideal.

 

[AGBF]

Thank you, JQ. Does that mean that somebody goofed when submitting it or that the symmetry and polish are a mere excellent and that no one could AGS to say otherwise? (I mean in your opinion, of course. I know you were probably not around when someone decided to submit the stone for a DQR rather than a DQD which could have come up triple oranges or cherries or whatever.)

Deb

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/26/2005 6:59

0 PM
Author: AGBF
Thank you, JQ. Does that mean that somebody goofed when submitting it or that the symmetry and polish are a mere excellent and that no one could AGS to say otherwise? (I mean in your opinion, of course. I know you were probably not around when someone decided to submit the stone for a DQR rather than a DQD which could have come up triple oranges or cherries or whatever.)

Deb

Deb, LOL at "triple cherries." Since the AGS is located in Vegas you may have something - hope for no triple lemons!

As to your query...

DQD is the “top shelf” AGS report - but not every stone that could receive Ideal grades is necessarily sent in for a DQD. The reasons can vary. It does cost more for a DQD, but not much.

Our own reasons have to do with consumer perception: We obtain a DQD for each “A Cut Above,” because they are Brian’s signature line. Part of the package includes acquiring this document with the prized “Ideal” nomenclature and specific 0 grade for cut.

Alternately, we request a DQR for most Expert Selection diamonds sent to AGS. Of course, because Ideal polish and symmetry are reported as excellent on the DQR I’m sure we have AGS 0 “Triple Ideal” diamonds in Expert Selection which remain “disguised”

as simple Ex/Ex on the DQR.

 

[AGBF]

Whoa!!! I feel I am being let in on the inner secrets of the diamond industry! How infinitely sexy!!!

Deb

 

[JohnQuixote]

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/26/2005 10:18:12 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
Not nearly as sexy as a woman with a cello.

A small faux pas, John. I love my daughter very much, but she is still 12 and in seventh grade, so I would prefer *not* to think of her as sexy just yet . Oh...and did you see the topic I posted on Italian driving? Her father is an Italian-born Italian...did you ever see that bit in "The Godfather" when Michael Corleone...well, never mind. He doesn''t read Pricescope. Not Michael Corleone. He *may* read pricescope. It is my *husband* who doesn''t...and that is what counts. Trust me.

Your friend,
Deb

 

[Rank Amateur]

John''s goin" to jail!!

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/26/2005 10:22:36 PM
Author: AGBF

Oh...and did you see the topic I posted on Italian driving? Her father is an Italian-born Italian...did you ever see that bit in ''The Godfather'' when Michael Corleone...well, never mind. He doesn''t read Pricescope. Not Michael Corleone. He *may* read pricescope. It is my *husband* who doesn''t...and that is what counts. Trust me.

Your friend,

Deb

Woop! Thought it was you - a fellow musician - in that photo...(cflutist is never going to let me live this down)
Only 12 y.o. thing I think is sexy is single malt Scotch.

Hubby (and Michael) can call off the hit.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/26/2005 11:19:59 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 1/26/2005 10:22:36


Hubby (and Michael) can call off the hit.

shoot and I needed the money too sheesh that means I have to go to work tomorrow :{

 

[lostdog]

Okay, but would this one, from the example, come back with id/id sym/pol?

I assume we can assume from the numbers that proportions would make it an AGS0?

http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-802450.htm#


We can't be sure that a DQR ex/ex stone would be id/id DQD, but what might be the clues here that it wouldn't get id/id?

Any thoughts after looking at that IS? Something else?

 

[Bagpuss]

Just a thought but perhaps a diamond with perfect colour clarity and cut AND perfect proportions, symmetry, and polish could be termed a double triple zero. In the interests of clarity.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Date: 1/26/2005 11:19:59 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Only 12 y.o. thing I think is sexy is single malt Scotch.

Then You better see if you can find Lagavoulin - see what another 4 years of maturing can do for a whiskey...


The 16 Year old whiskey is so popular that stocks are getting low (exchanging hands now for £40 a bottle - used to be £25 last year or so)

 

[Nicolas]

I agree with you, Lagavulin is my favorite. Note that is an Islay Whisky, that's the big difference with other Single malts of Scotland.
You can easily taste the smell of spray and iodize (not sure about these words in english...)
Try to taste the Talisker too

NB : Sorry for not replying about ideal 000.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Aye, no forgettin the most important disinguishing feature of an Islay Whisky (made the most heinous of crimes in the last post... tarnishing a Scotish whisky with the irish moniker of adding a E! argh i''ll be strung up for that!)

Anyway PEAT...

Can be seen in most of Islays whiskys...

from Lagavulin mature, smooth fireyness... Bowmore''s richness, the rawness and head blowing flavour of Laphriogr (can never spell these places lol)

not had Talisker... will add it to the list of ''to try''


Getting back on Subject...

So are we going to end up with premium diamonds being sold as an ''AGS Sextant''? (AGS000000 - Ideal Proportions, polish, sym, cut, colour and clarity)

or is that just getting daft and we''ll stay with a AGS000 Triple Zero?

*head a spinning*

 

[dobie]

Here''s my sextant. The arc is one sixth of a circle.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/27/2005 5:51:37 AM
Author: lostdog
Okay, but would this one, from the example, come back with id/id sym/pol?

I assume we can assume from the numbers that proportions would make it an AGS0?

http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-802450.htm#

We can't be sure that a DQR ex/ex stone would be id/id DQD, but what might be the clues here that it wouldn't get id/id?

Any thoughts after looking at that IS? Something else?

Lostdog,

That stone is not level in the IS image. The difference in arrow shaft lengths at 3 & 9-o'clock, the disconnect of arrowheads at 12 & 6-o'clock and the off-center look of the culet give that away. I've often said the most difficult thing about accurate representation of a diamond in any table-up image is getting it level.

As to the point... What the labs grade, symmetry-wise is not optical symmetry. Here are some good reads on this:

Garry on symmetry grading
John on symmetry differences

When splitting the Ideal or Ex hair, consider that the GIA concluded that there is no visible difference in diamonds with G, VG and Ex lab-graded symmetry and polish grades. This makes the dif in Ideal and Ex on a DQD or DQR even less significant, except to nomenclature fans (of which there are, admittedly, plenty).

On the stone in question you're right...the proportions do an AGS0 make.
Would it be Ideal Ideal if submitted for a DQD?

The world may never know

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/27/2005 6:59:28 AM
Author: Bagpuss
Just a thought but perhaps a diamond with perfect colour clarity and cut AND perfect proportions, symmetry, and polish could be termed a double triple zero. In the interests of clarity.

Hehehe.

I like this, along with the triple cherries idea.

"I'll have the AGS Double Triple Cherry - with sprinkles, please."

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/27/2005 9

4:57 AM
Author: Nicolas
I agree with you, Lagavulin is my favorite. Note that is an Islay Whisky, that's the big difference with other Single malts of Scotland.

You can easily taste the smell of spray and iodize (not sure about these words in english...)

Try to taste the Talisker too

NB : Sorry for not replying about ideal 000.

Nicolas (and M'Lord),

I have Balvenie on a shelf, but Lagavulin and Laphroaig are the Islay staples of a friend's collection. He’s a relocated highlander, complete with tartan, dirk, brooch a sporran and even a claymore hanging over his bar. He touts the merits of the Islays. The Laphroaig has too much iodine for my palate (it’s his favorite), but the smoke and clover in a potent snifter of Lagavulin has been my companion for a few late-night dissertations on life, the universe and everything. Segue…Douglas Adams might say “Lagavulin is hoopy.”

Back on-topic: Lagavulin gets 0 in peat, 0 in smoke and 0 in iodine. A “Triple Nip.”

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/27/2005 4

9:52 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
Back on-topic: Lagavulin gets 0 in peat, 0 in smoke and 0 in iodine. A “Triple Nip.”

Oh... so that's the topic! No wonder I got lost! I recently "researched" single-malt scotches on the 'net before deciding on one to give my father for Christmas. (I think he had been drinking Glenlivet.) One site I visited said that one should save Glenlivet for the times when he was stuck on an ice floe or some such thing! I don't know how any of you can tell the difference!!!

Deb

 

[Lynn B]

Date: 1/27/2005 6:59:28 AM
Author: Bagpuss
Just a thought but perhaps a diamond with perfect colour clarity and cut AND perfect proportions, symmetry, and polish could be termed a double triple zero. In the interests of clarity.

ROFLMHO!!!!!

Reminds me of Dumb and Dumber... "LLOYD! YOU CAN'T DOUBLE STAMP A TRIPLE STAMP!!!"

Lynn

 

[lostdog]

"That stone is not level in the IS image. The difference in arrow shaft lengths at 3 & 9-o'clock, the disconnect of arrowheads at 12 & 6-o'clock and the off-center look of the culet give that away."

Thanks for clearing that up for me, John. I have seen plenty IS images now, especially on the WF site (

), so while that just didn't look right, I wasn't sure why.

There's no real way to distinguish EX and ID symmetry in an IS image, I take it? It's undetermined, like a certain kind of cat.


- - -

As for Scots gems, I am not the most adventurous, but I tend toward Glenmorangie and the Macallan, of voting age when possible (I am hording the stuff I bought duty free in New Zealand for 50% off back home pricing). And a remarkable Cadenhead's Speyside arrived on the shelf last year.....Great clarity, not at all colorless, ideal finish. Hmm, it's 5pm here. Maybe I should go and certify a bit of it right now....