AGS round ACA 1.24 H Si1 turns out to be an J Vs2

[Demelza]

Date: 2/4/2006 9:15:20 PM
Author: diamondstud
Yes, the AGS and the incription match. The inclusion map was dead on. The diameter he had was .06 less than what was on the report. He also had one of the numbers at 33, rather than the 34 the AGS says it is. His response about the symmetry was that AGS isn't as good of a report as the GIA. And that my stone as an AGS 0 would be a GIA of 1?


scott

Rich -- would you agree with this appraiser's claim that AGS is not as reputable a lab as GIA? I always thought they were on par. If anything, I guess I would have said that AGS is even a bit better?? What do you say??

 

[JohnQuixote]

Hi Scott. We’ll be back in the offices Monday. Your peace of mind is as important to us as her happiness is. We will gladly go over what was said/done and take it from there. Please don’t worry.

In the meantime, I’ll send you a PM with my email address. I’ll be glad to answer any questions I can, although my window of time is narrow tomorrow.

I’d like to thank Richard Sherwood for providing his professional input here. I would add that, in my opinion, the AGS is ahead of any other lab when it comes to understanding and rewarding cut precision and performance.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 2/4/2006 10:30:37 PM
Author: Demelza

Date: 2/4/2006 9:15:20 PM

Author: diamondstud

His response about the symmetry was that AGS isn''t as good of a report as the GIA. And that my stone as an AGS 0 would be a GIA of 1?

scott

Rich -- would you agree with this appraiser''s claim that AGS is not as reputable a lab as GIA? I always thought they were on par. If anything, I guess I would have said that AGS is even a bit better?? What do you say??

Demelza, it looks as though what Scott is quoting of the appraiser is that GIA is stricter or tougher on their symmetry grading than the AGS.

You often hear GIA proponents saying this, while you hear AGS proponents saying AGS is stricter. I''ve found them to be pretty much equivalent (in regard to technical symmetry grading), with maybe AGS nudging out GIA by just a nose. Just in regards to technical symmetry (not optical symmetry), mind you. In regards to the entire gamut of cut grading, AGS outdistances GIA by two or three lengths, in my opinion.

I''m pretty much an AGS proponent though. Their emphasis on cut grading throughout the years impressed me so much that I joined their organization and am participating in their ICGA (Indepedent Certified Gemologist Appraiser) program.

 

[XChick03]

"The diameter he had was .06 less than what was on the report. He also had one of the numbers at 33, rather than the 34 the AGS says it is."

I'm new to PS, but aren't the measurements and carat weight allowed to be off by no more than .07? Or is that only in ct? I'm also confused about the 33, 34. What was the 33 supposed to represent?

If the color is only off by one, I wouldn't be too upset, but I probably would seek another opinion.

 

[Jelly]

For a customer to come on Pricescope and announce his AGS graded H color stone is a J after he took it to the appraiser sounds like serious business! HOWEVER, for him to say it is a J based on his own opinion, is RIDICULOUS!

Comparison: I love my new K stone and my own personal, untrained eye thinks it looks like a I. Is it fair to come onto pricescope, a consumer''s forum, and start a thread saying, "MY AGS CERTIFIED WHITEFLASH K STONE TURNS OUT TO BE AN I COLOR DIAMOND!" ???

 

[Demelza]

Date: 2/4/2006 10:51:17 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 2/4/2006 10:30:37 PM

Author: Demelza

Date: 2/4/2006 9:15:20 PM


Author: diamondstud


His response about the symmetry was that AGS isn''t as good of a report as the GIA. And that my stone as an AGS 0 would be a GIA of 1?


scott

Rich -- would you agree with this appraiser''s claim that AGS is not as reputable a lab as GIA? I always thought they were on par. If anything, I guess I would have said that AGS is even a bit better?? What do you say??

Demelza, it looks as though what Scott is quoting of the appraiser is that GIA is stricter or tougher on their symmetry grading than the AGS.


You often hear GIA proponents saying this, while you hear AGS proponents saying AGS is stricter. I''ve found them to be pretty much equivalent (in regard to technical symmetry grading), with maybe AGS nudging out GIA by just a nose. Just in regards to technical symmetry (not optical symmetry), mind you. In regards to the entire gamut of cut grading, AGS outdistances GIA by two or three lengths, in my opinion.


I''m pretty much an AGS proponent though. Their emphasis on cut grading throughout the years impressed me so much that I joined their organization and am participating in their ICGA (Indepedent Certified Gemologist Appraiser) program.

Thanks, Rich! As always, very helpful info!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Just out of curiosity, I would be happy to analyze the color of this stone on the SAS-2000 spectrophotometer at no charge (except for return shipping) if either party is interested.

DiamondStud, if you like the stone but are just concerned about the color grade, that would be a good way to put your mind at rest. That machine is pretty damn objective. I fondly refer to him (it) as "butthead". He doesn't give an inch.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 2/4/2006 11:05:10 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I would be happy to analyze the color of this stone on the SAS-2000 spectrophotometer at no charge (except for return shipping) if either party is interested.

DiamondStud, if you like the stone but are just concerned about the color grade, that would be a good way to put your mind at rest. That machine is pretty damn objective. I fondly refer to him (it) as ''butthead''. He doesn''t give an inch.

That is very generous of you Richard. Thank you for all your insight on this thread.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 2/4/2006 11:11:07 PM
Author: kaleigh

Date: 2/4/2006 11:05:10 PM

Author: Richard Sherwood

I would be happy to analyze the color of this stone on the SAS-2000 spectrophotometer at no charge (except for return shipping) if either party is interested.


DiamondStud, if you like the stone but are just concerned about the color grade, that would be a good way to put your mind at rest. That machine is pretty damn objective. I fondly refer to him (it) as ''butthead''. He doesn''t give an inch.

That is very generous of you Richard. Thank you for all your insight on this thread.

I agree. Sounds like a very good offer to me

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/4/2006 11:05:10 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
Just out of curiosity, I would be happy to analyze the color of this stone on the SAS-2000 spectrophotometer at no charge (except for return shipping) if either party is interested.

DiamondStud, if you like the stone but are just concerned about the color grade, that would be a good way to put your mind at rest. That machine is pretty damn objective. I fondly refer to him (it) as ''butthead''. He doesn''t give an inch.

That is a gracious offer Rich. We''re fine with that if Scott decides he wants to do it.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 2/4/2006 11:03:52 PM
Author: Jelly
For a customer to come on Pricescope and announce his AGS graded H color stone is a J after he took it to the appraiser sounds like serious business! HOWEVER, for him to say it is a J based on his own opinion, is RIDICULOUS!


Comparison: I love my new K stone and my own personal, untrained eye thinks it looks like a I. Is it fair to come onto pricescope, a consumer''s forum, and start a thread saying, ''MY AGS CERTIFIED WHITEFLASH K STONE TURNS OUT TO BE AN I COLOR DIAMOND!'' ???

From what I read, the original poster claims the appraiser said the stone was "in the H-I range, no lower than a J" then CHOSE to list the stone as an "I" on his assesment. He''s allowed to summarize this HOWEVER HE WISHES. The title isn''t "appraiser said J" ... it''s a summary of how he feels his experience went ... and he clarifies in the post with a carefully detailed summary that lets everyone form their own opinions.

If I were him, and my stone got an appraisal SIGNIFICANTLY different than what he expected, I''d be upset too & my emotions might show in my choice of wording etc.

You state "pricescope is a consumers forum". EXACTLY. IMHO what''s fair is for people to present their situations as they occur to them. He may not have been aware when he started the thread that color grades are a RANGE of tolerances. Something the appraiser would have been wise to point out if he didn''t. Other posters have reasonably stated their knowledge and advice. BTW ... PLENTY of people around here start threads & continually claim their stones look so much "whiter" than their assesed color grade (me included ... GIA H, appraised "G")

 

[XChick03]

I thought that was pretty harsh also. Pricescope is an absolute blessing to people like me. And I''ve found that its the best place to learn everything you need to know about buying a great diamond and also a great place to get advice from those knowledgable and kind enough to help. He was concerned about a purchase he made and wanted advice from people who know a lot about diamonds. I don''t see how he''s wrong in doing that.

On a side note, that''s a very nice offer, Richard.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I only skimmed these posts, so forgive me if I asked what has been asked.

did you know there is not a lot of price difference between I vS2 and H SI1?

Otherwise I think you have had excellent advice from Rich, and i am sure Sir John will make you happy (if you need that).

 

[Jelly]

What''s the price difference between a J and an H?

 

[Mara]

personally i feel in general that GIA and AGS are at least on par with each other if not preferring AGS for myself personally...

and i have to say that even if a reputable independent appraiser said that my stone was an I or a J with VG symmetry but it had those 40x mag images and the idealscope images, and the branding that it does, i know what a stickler brian is for his ACA brand stones, he kicks out perfectly stunning stones into the ES selection and doesn't give them the brand....so i have to think that if this was really not a serious top notch stone that they would have caught it. just my own experience with WF and knowing how picky they are with stone selection (in a good way of course).

so i'd get another independent appraisal opinion and rich's offer to check out the stone sounds great, rich is excellent and i would trust him hands down as another opinion. good luck!!

ETA I do agree that the terminology in the subject is a little alarmist...aka it does read a little freaky..aka i was sold this ACA H SI and it's really a J VS..when it sounds like there's alot more to the story than just being that simple. retitling it something like 'independent appraisal came back different than AGS cert' sounds a little more realistic. just my two cents!

 

[Jelly]

Date: 2/4/2006 6:30:09 PM
Author:diamondstud
I took my internet purchase to an independent appraiser. He was very close on many things regarding the angles, but they weren''t exact. This diamond is ideal round ACA H SI1, but the indep says the diamond is a J Vs2 with a polish that is excellent and symmetry as very good. I was a bit surprised by this. I was concerned so I asked to compare against something I knew about and that was color. He put out the master diamonds that were 1ct. When we compared it to a K, the color of my diamond looked very close to it in my eyes,,,, im still young. It looked more ''COLORFUL'' than the 1ct H we were comparing it to.

So my question is: does the color become darker when the stone becomes bigger? Eg like when you pour a glass of water it is clear, but the lake the water is from is brown? Meaning, the smaller the H, the lighter it appears, but would be a K if it was a 2 ct?

Should I expect that the report isn''t exact, and is this typical of AGS report? That it isn''t ideal to GIA standards but to AGS it is?

scott

I apologize for being too harsh in my earlier post. Basically, diamondstud claims in his first post that his independant appraiser said the diamond is a J Vs2. Not until a later post do we find out that this wasn''t exactly true.

There are two sides of every story. I appreciate concerns from consumers, and I wouldn''t want to be accused of defending WF if they made an actual mistake. However, I don''t see WF at fault at all. I also know that the ACA diamonds are beautiful and great buy. They come with AGS certs, and an appraisal from an independant source in the form of a letter when you buy their stones. To accuse them of being two color grades lower when the appraiser never said that seems wrong. JMHO

 

[ame]

I think Id be taking Rich up on that extremely generous offer!!! IF for no other reason than to have the peace of mind that I got what I paid for!

 

[Mara]

Oh and I wanted to address what Deco said re: the appraisal being $9k when he paid $7500 for it...." in my limited experience web-purchased stones often appraise for 2x the amount paid -- so your 9K appraisal for a 7500 stone ain't great."

Just because most typical appraisals are totally inflated ~2x does not mean that this appraiser did it that way. Bottom line is that a stone should appraise for at least what you paid if not more but just because something did not appraise at 2x does not mean anything to me. My appraiser does not give overinflated appraisals and she typically does a grand or two more than what I paid because it's realistic..and it's what I could REPLACE the stone for. Plus I really don't see a need to overpay for insurance.

So as a totally separate issue as to whether or not this is an H I J etc...but I don't think that people should be expecting their stone to appraise for ~2x more or close to that just because some people do it that way.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 2/5/2006 12:05:42 AM
Author: Mara

Oh and I wanted to address what Deco said re: the appraisal being $9k when he paid $7500 for it....'' in my limited experience web-purchased stones often appraise for 2x the amount paid -- so your 9K appraisal for a 7500 stone ain''t great.''

Just because most typical appraisals are totally inflated ~2x does not mean that this appraiser did it that way. Bottom line is that a stone should appraise for at least what you paid if not more but just because something did not appraise at 2x does not mean anything to me. My appraiser does not give overinflated appraisals and she typically does a grand or two more than what I paid because it''s realistic..and it''s what I could REPLACE the stone for. Plus I really don''t see a need to overpay for insurance.

So as a totally separate issue as to whether or not this is an H I J etc...but I don''t think that people should be expecting their stone to appraise for ~2x more or close to that just because some people do it that way.

Very good point, ditto on that.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 2/4/2006 11:18:44 PM
Author: decodelighted


From what I read, the original poster claims the appraiser said the stone was ''in the H-I range, no lower than a J'' then CHOSE to list the stone as an ''I'' on his assesment. He''s allowed to summarize this HOWEVER HE WISHES. The title isn''t ''appraiser said J'' ... it''s a summary of how he feels his experience went ... and he clarifies in the post with a carefully detailed summary that lets everyone form their own opinions.

If I were him, and my stone got an appraisal SIGNIFICANTLY different than what he expected, I''d be upset too & my emotions might show in my choice of wording etc.

Actually, I think the title suggests a bit more than that, Deco.....and misleads.

"Turns out to be" means that''s what it was graded.....and that''s not true. "H turns out to be J" strongly suggests that a stone that received an H from AGS was subsequently GRADED as a J by someone else.....and that''s not so. H looked more like a J, or H seemed more like a J isn''t nearly as definitive (and therefore misleading) as "H *turns out* to be a J"....meaning the ultimate result.

An appraiser ultimately assigns a grade based on what he thinks the stone is. If this appraiser thought "well, it could be an I or a J, but in my heart of hearts, I really believe it leans more closely to J than to I".......then it would have been graded as a J. It wasn''t.

I agree with the earlier comments.....title isn''t really factual and seems to exaggerate in a misleading way (even though I don''t think that was the intention.)

 

[solange]

Th original appraisal on the stone I bought from Whiteflash came back with an appraisal of about double what i paid. However, I felt this was a value if I bought the stone in a high end retail store.

I requested an appraisal that was more in the line of replacement value plus a few thousand dollars. It might give some pleasure to think their ring is worth twice what they paid but in actuality, you would be paying insurance on an inflated price not related to the replacement value if you bought it from a Pricescope vendor. The appraiser probably should have discussed with you whether he was appraising it at the full retail price or as a replacement value . In that case, an appraisal of $2,000 more than you paid is realistic as a replacement value plus some extra allowing for price increases.

I hope you will take advantage of Richard Sherwood''s generous offer to give you a scientific color evaluation so you can have peace of mind that you got what you paid for. i look forward to hearing how it all turned out.

It does seem that the information as to color left somethig to be desired because it was a combination of the appraiser''s opinion and your guesswork and i felt that your title was a little misleading.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/5/2006 12:05:42 AM
Author: Mara

Just because most typical appraisals are totally inflated ~2x does not mean that this appraiser did it that way. Bottom line is that a stone should appraise for at least what you paid if not more but just because something did not appraise at 2x does not mean anything to me. My appraiser does not give overinflated appraisals and she typically does a grand or two more than what I paid because it''s realistic..and it''s what I could REPLACE the stone for. Plus I really don''t see a need to overpay for insurance.

Mara
i agree.

hope i''m not sick

i been agreeing with Mara and Alj lately. that''s not a good sign.

 

[Mara]

Date: 2/5/2006 1:09:53 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 2/5/2006 12:05:42 AM
Author: Mara


Just because most typical appraisals are totally inflated ~2x does not mean that this appraiser did it that way. Bottom line is that a stone should appraise for at least what you paid if not more but just because something did not appraise at 2x does not mean anything to me. My appraiser does not give overinflated appraisals and she typically does a grand or two more than what I paid because it''s realistic..and it''s what I could REPLACE the stone for. Plus I really don''t see a need to overpay for insurance.

Mara
i agree.

hope i''m not sick

i been agreeing with Mara and Alj lately. that''s not a good sign.

It just means you are getting smarter, DF!!

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 2/5/2006 1:21:05 AM
Author: Mara

Date: 2/5/2006 1:09:53 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 2/5/2006 12:05:42 AM
Author: Mara



Just because most typical appraisals are totally inflated ~2x does not mean that this appraiser did it that way. Bottom line is that a stone should appraise for at least what you paid if not more but just because something did not appraise at 2x does not mean anything to me. My appraiser does not give overinflated appraisals and she typically does a grand or two more than what I paid because it''s realistic..and it''s what I could REPLACE the stone for. Plus I really don''t see a need to overpay for insurance.

Mara
i agree.

hope i''m not sick

i been agreeing with Mara and Alj lately. that''s not a good sign.

It just means you are getting smarter, DF!!

True that, Lol.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 2/4/2006 7:10:18 PM
Author: diamondstud
I believe he is putting color of i on the report, but to me it looked like a K when i compared it.

"K" would have been the original poster''s opinion. "J" was something the appraiser thought was possible. I still believe the title is completely fair and that consumers have a right to their opinions and to express their concerns without being personally criticized.

As to the popular "2x appraisal" amount ... it''s just that: "popular" ... not in every case for sure and savvy consumers do ask for "replacement value" or more "realistic" appraisals to save on insurance. But I *personally* would not be thrilled to find a stone I paid $7500 for appraised even in the most stringent terms at $9K. That''s just me. I expect to "do better". As it seems CLEARLY the poster expected to ... when he expected to have an IDEAL cut H instead of an I/J Very Good. It should be noted that he also posted that the clarity he expected was of a LESSER grade than it was "judged" to be by the appraiser ... which may even out the overall valuation situation some ... and it still could be an AWESOME stone at an AWESOME price. Personally I''d need more information before I could really "feel okay" about it.

I''m very happy none of the "pros" has criticized the original poster in any way - just tried to be more than helpful and offer knowledge and guidence and even free services. Kudos!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/5/2006 1:34:00 AM
Author: kaleigh

Date: 2/5/2006 1:21:05 AM
Author: Mara

Date: 2/5/2006 1:09:53 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 2/5/2006 12:05:42 AM
Author: Mara




Just because most typical appraisals are totally inflated ~2x does not mean that this appraiser did it that way. Bottom line is that a stone should appraise for at least what you paid if not more but just because something did not appraise at 2x does not mean anything to me. My appraiser does not give overinflated appraisals and she typically does a grand or two more than what I paid because it''s realistic..and it''s what I could REPLACE the stone for. Plus I really don''t see a need to overpay for insurance.

Mara
i agree.

hope i''m not sick

i been agreeing with Mara and Alj lately. that''s not a good sign.

It just means you are getting smarter, DF!!

True that, Lol.

hey Kaleigh

what time is it back east? why aren''t you in bed? it''s pass your bed time.

 

[Mara]

Okay deco, my sweetie, if we really want to be specific...here is what he also said:

"He got the master's back out first the E, that wasn't it,, then the H. It still didn't look correct so then it was to the K. It looked much closer to the K than the H to me."

_____________

From the post above it looks like no master J stone was brought out, instead he brought out an E, then an H and then a K. Pretty big leaps IMO! Not an exact H but closer to a K. The appraiser also said he'd judge it an I and AT WORST a J. So it wasn't that it looked literally like a K as you quoted up above but seemingly rather that it was 'closer' to the K than the H.

Personally, and this is just me...I judge a stone with my OWN EYES. I don't need to really get appraisals anymore because I trust my own judgement in terms of the stones I gravitate towards, trust that Brian and WF know how to choose their stones, and trust that if my own eyes love it then it's a keeper. But I surely wasn't like that on my first stone, so I can understand wanting 'validation' on what you bought.

That said, seriously any sort of grading is subjective!!!! It's really important that people realize that. AGS could have had a bad day. The appraiser could have had a bad day. Right now we only have ONE appraiser opinion on the table with another being offered.

One other question which I don't know if it has been asked to the original poster is...What were your thoughts when the diamond arrived? Before going to the appraiser? Did you feel the stone was beautiful? Faced up white? Were you happy with it? If so, another question is why let what one appraiser said affect you?? Since grading is subjective. If you loved the stone, love it now regardless if it's an H or I or closer to a J. It still appraised at more than what you paid which IS a positive.

And lastly, I really feel like what is the big deal if people criticize the original poster for how it was worded? No one here was rude in what they said re: their feelings. Big deal, life sometimes deals out criticisms. I personally think the title could have been worded better, but who cares what I think...

I think that people can voice their own opinions re: possibly a better delivery and someone can agree or disagree, and people can just get past that and address the issue at hand which is what is going on with the stone.

 

[diamondstud]

Diamond grading is subjective - at least color grading is. I understand this. I am sorry my title infers anything. I didn''t think I would get such a response and concern from everyone about my purchase. Keep in mind, i had nothing to compare to other than the E H K stones as mentioned, and who is to say those were correct? My real dilemma is who is correct, what is correct and how i can make myself feel better about my purchase. I believe WF is, but an indep has no incentive to be biased either...

scottt

 

[Mara]

Scott, I am not sure if you saw this in my previous post, but I am curious...can you please respond?

"One other question which I don't know if it has been asked to the original poster is...What were your thoughts when the diamond arrived? Before going to the appraiser? Did you feel the stone was beautiful? Faced up white? Were you happy with it? If so, another question is why let what one appraiser said affect you?? Since grading is subjective. If you loved the stone, love it now regardless if it's an H or I or closer to a J. It still appraised at more than what you paid which IS a positive."

Who is right? I don't know if there is any correct one definitive answer and you may have to reconcile yourself to that, what if you take it to 2 other appraisers and they all say different things?

That is why I ask about what was in your heart about the stone before you took it to an appraiser and felt like maybe it was not what you thought originally.

 

[diamondstud]

...What were your thoughts when the diamond arrived?

It arrived at the appraiser, so I had but 1 minute to fall in love with it. i really liked it. A LOT. I was excited because I thought I purchased something that was considered rare and difficult to achieve. I only brought it to the appraiser for further eval of the final ring for insurance purposes. He began to look at the diamond to verify the cert. Numbers were close... color off, symmetry off blah blah and everything seemed down hill from there. The only thing that was in jive was the incription and the map. I was a bit disturbed and my confidence in my purchase dwindled as the appraisal continued because it seemed to me like he "see''s these all the time." How many people come in with a supposed perfect cut diamond that sparkles like no other. So when i walked out, I was confused and stressed. More so than wiring my 7500 for a diamond I never saw.

Did you feel the stone was beautiful? yes
Faced up white? It has some tint to it when placed on white paper.
Were you happy with it? If so, another question is why let what one appraiser said affect you??
I am a numbers guy, and 3 months ago you could have duped me into thinking I could buy a diamond based on price only. It bothers me to think that someone who is supposedly an expert on diamonds isn''t impressed with my purchase other than the price I paid for it. I felt like I just got a regular diamond, and not one within the 10% in the world.

Since grading is subjective. If you loved the stone, love it now regardless if it''s an H or I or closer to a J. It still appraised at more than what you paid which IS a positive."
True. He said that too, and that I did get a better clarity. But like I said, the color seemed off to me and to him ( based on HIS masters) and that bothers me the most and the fact he didn''t think it had perfect symmetry - which was really the reason i downgraded from an F and vs2 which I was focused on from the start.

scott