AGS Light Performance

[climbman]

I''ve noticed that some AGS certificates include a category for Light Performance. In such cases, there is an overall cut grade, polish grade, symmetry grade, and light performance grade. In other cases, the first three are included, but not the light performance grade. If a diamond is AGS 000 and not graded with light performance, is it somehow less strict than an "AGS 0000"?

In general, what does this one number mean, and does it affect the overall cut grade?

Is it something to really use as a point of comparison? Does it relate to H&A images?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/10/2009 10:40:58 AM
Author:climbman
I've noticed that some AGS certificates include a category for Light Performance. In such cases, there is an overall cut grade, polish grade, symmetry grade, and light performance grade. In other cases, the first three are included, but not the light performance grade. If a diamond is AGS 000 and not graded with light performance, is it somehow less strict than an 'AGS 0000'?

In general, what does this one number mean, and does it affect the overall cut grade?

Is it something to really use as a point of comparison? Does it relate to H&A images?

There are 2 AGS reports, the premier report ( now Platinum) which is the AGS Diamond Quality Document which gives the 0 cut grade based on ideal in all areas and the cut grade is light performance based.

Also h&a images are not related in anyway, the new Plat reports have an ASET simulation image on each report.

The Diamond Quality® Document is AGS Laboratories' premier diamond grading report, The Diamond Quality® Document provides a complete diamond grading analysis of the 4Cs: the diamond’s Cut Grade, Color Grade, Clarity Grade, and Carat Weight. Included in the Diamond Cut Grade is information on the diamond’s light performance, proportions, polish, and symmetry. The Diamond Quality® Document is the industry’s only document that offers a cut grade for Round Brilliant, Princess, Emerald, and Oval shaped diamonds---and more diamonds are coming online soon. The Diamond Quality® Document is known in the diamond industry as "the" diamond grading report for Ideal Cut diamonds, the highest grade a diamond can achieve by AGS Laboratories.


The AGS Diamond Quality Report ( now Gold report) gives a cut grade which is performance based, it could be this you are thinking of.

http://www.agslab.com/ags_products.php

AGS Laboratories' new proportion-based Diamond Quality® Report is based upon the patented AGS light performance system. The report offers a complete grading analysis of the 4Cs: Cut, Color, Clarity and Carat Weight, and features word descriptors ranging from Ideal to Very Poor in order to give a clear, concise explanation of the diamond’s quality. The Diamond Quality® Report is the gold standard in proportion-based grading reports.

 

[climbman]

For example, one of the following says it is a Platinum report, but the other is a diamond quality document (I could not see any differentiation in the link you sent). Consider, for example, the certificate for the following:

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1253591.asp

as versus:

 

[climbman]

platinum

 

[climbman]

platinum

 

[climbman]

Note: I''m not asking you to compare the diamonds, but rather to tell me if one of the reports has more information than the other, if you would. Thanks.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/10/2009 11:27:36 AM
Author: climbman
For example, one of the following says it is a Platinum report, but the other is a diamond quality document (I could not see any differentiation in the link you sent). Consider, for example, the certificate for the following:

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1253591.asp

as versus:

Ah ok, I am with you! The DQD you posted above is the older style which is being replaced with the platinum report, the new DQD. The report for the diamond above is being phased out and replaced with the new Platinum report for Diamond Quality Documents, the old Diamond Quality Reports which have cut grades based on proportions will be replaced with the Gold reports.

The new Platinum reports have the ASET light map simulation whereas the old DQD did not.

 

[climbman]

Not to belabor the point, but you are saying that:

(1) the JA report I sent a link to is an old report which is being phased out (Gold report)
(2) the JA cut grade is based on proportions (the old-fashioned AGS000, rather than light performance)
(3) the form physically attached in this thread is the new Platinum report
(4) on the above form, the cut grade is not based solely on proportions, but also light performance. in this sense, that report is possibly a more reliable (or, at least newer) indication of cut quality, as versus the JA cut quality score?

Thanks. I don''t mean to be excessive, but I was not quite sure which report you were referring in your previous comments.

 

[Allison D.]

Climbman, the reports are essentially the same in that they are both performance based. The Platinum report wasn''t rolled out until January, 2009; prior to that, the top performance-based document from AGS was the version you see with the JA stone.

I don''t know if you''d consider it ''added'' information, but the Platinum report assigns a separate grade for light performance and it includes a light performance map of the actual stone.

Oh, and a quick note about the AGS Gold report - it''s not actually ''performance'' based, it''s proportion-based. Granted, the assigned proportions are based on AGS light performance data, but it''s still a parametric system based on proportions.

 

[oldminer]

"The Diamond Quality® Document is the industry’s only document that offers a cut grade for Round Brilliant, Princess, Emerald, and Oval shaped diamonds"



I often see this quote from AGSL literature. I have writtent to AGSL and have gotten response that they would no longer say this without qualification, but they have not kept their word on the matter. The AGSL was NOT the first lab to do this and my friend, Peter Yantzer would admit that this is salesmanship and not the entire truth. My old lab, AGA, was offering cut grades for nearly every shape of diamond from the early 1990's, before the AGSL was even in existence. I can't say the AGSL has not done a better job of marketing their product and few would doubt the quality of their work, but this ongoing mis-statement of fact does disturb me because it is wrong, they have been put on notice and acknowledged it, and it is not of great importance to their continued success. Just because something is in print, does not make it accurate.

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 8/10/2009 12:08:38 PM
Author: climbman
Not to belabor the point, but you are saying that:

(1) the JA report I sent a link to is an old report which is being phased out (Gold report)
(2) the JA cut grade is based on proportions (the old-fashioned AGS000, rather than light performance)
(3) the form physically attached in this thread is the new Platinum report
(4) on the above form, the cut grade is not based solely on proportions, but also light performance. in this sense, that report is possibly a more reliable (or, at least newer) indication of cut quality, as versus the JA cut quality score?

Thanks. I don't mean to be excessive, but I was not quite sure which report you were referring in your previous comments.

No.

The JA report you linked to was performance-based; see the top right corner of the report where it says "performance" based. This report has/had an additional flap that you can't see because it's beyond the scan area.

Take a look here: http://agslab.com/trade_product_diamond_quality_document.php. You'll see in this sample that there is an additional flap to the right that you can't see on the stone you linked to becuase it's beyond the scan area of a standard page size.

ETA:

Climb, the report on the JA stone was the "performance-based" report of its era. It's dated November, 2008, and at that time, the Platinum report wasn't yet being issued. When it began to be issued in January, 2009, it replaced the report the JA stone has. It's entirely likely that stone would earn the Platinum report today since its grade has been performance based, not proportion based.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/10/2009 11:04:52 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 8/10/2009 10:40:58 AM
Author:climbman
I''ve noticed that some AGS certificates include a category for Light Performance. In such cases, there is an overall cut grade, polish grade, symmetry grade, and light performance grade. In other cases, the first three are included, but not the light performance grade. If a diamond is AGS 000 and not graded with light performance, is it somehow less strict than an ''AGS 0000''?

In general, what does this one number mean, and does it affect the overall cut grade?

Is it something to really use as a point of comparison? Does it relate to H&A images?

There are 2 AGS reports, the premier report ( now Platinum) which is the AGS Diamond Quality Document which gives the 0 cut grade based on ideal in all areas and the cut grade is light performance based.

Also h&a images are not related in anyway, the new Plat reports have an ASET simulation image on each report.

The Diamond Quality® Document is AGS Laboratories'' premier diamond grading report, The Diamond Quality® Document provides a complete diamond grading analysis of the 4Cs: the diamond’s Cut Grade, Color Grade, Clarity Grade, and Carat Weight. Included in the Diamond Cut Grade is information on the diamond’s light performance, proportions, polish, and symmetry. The Diamond Quality® Document is the industry’s only document that offers a cut grade for Round Brilliant, Princess, Emerald, and Oval shaped diamonds---and more diamonds are coming online soon. The Diamond Quality® Document is known in the diamond industry as ''the'' diamond grading report for Ideal Cut diamonds, the highest grade a diamond can achieve by AGS Laboratories.


The AGS Diamond Quality Report ( now Gold report) gives a cut grade which is performance based, it could be this you are thinking of.

http://www.agslab.com/ags_products.php

AGS Laboratories'' new proportion-based Diamond Quality® Report is based upon the patented AGS light performance system. The report offers a complete grading analysis of the 4Cs: Cut, Color, Clarity and Carat Weight, and features word descriptors ranging from Ideal to Very Poor in order to give a clear, concise explanation of the diamond’s quality. The Diamond Quality® Report is the gold standard in proportion-based grading reports.

The above highlight is an error, I meant to write proportion based, not performance!

 

[denverappraiser]

The difference between the old DQD and the current platinum report is purely one of formatting of the document. This change happened in 2009. The ‘light performance’ grade on the DQD is on a flap attached to the right hand margin that isn’t included on the scan. For a stone to receive an overall cut grade of ‘0’, as this stone has done, it must have 0’s in light performance, polish and symmetry as well. The procedure for determining the cut grade on a stone has not changed between the recent DQD’s and the platinum (It changed back in 2005 so older DQD’s use a different approach).

The gold report is a completely different thing that really doesn’t apply to either stone you’re considering.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/10/2009 12:14:23 PM
Author: oldminer
''The Diamond Quality® Document is the industry’s only document that offers a cut grade for Round Brilliant, Princess, Emerald, and Oval shaped diamonds''



I often see this quote from AGSL literature. I have writtent to AGSL and have gotten response that they would no longer say this without qualification, but they have not kept their word on the matter. The AGSL was NOT the first lab to do this and my friend, Peter Yantzer would admit that this is salesmanship and not the entire truth. My old lab, AGA, was offering cut grades for nearly every shape of diamond from the early 1990''s, before the AGSL was even in existence. I can''t say the AGSL has not done a better job of marketing their product and few would doubt the quality of their work, but this ongoing mis-statement of fact does disturb me because it is wrong, they have been put on notice and acknowledged it, and it is not of great importance to their continued success. Just because something is in print, does not make it accurate.

Good to know, thanks David!

 

[climbman]

Thanks all! Good to know that these reports are truly apples to apples. That was my only real concern.

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 8/10/2009 12:14:23 PM
Author: oldminer
'The Diamond Quality® Document is the industry’s only document that offers a cut grade for Round Brilliant, Princess, Emerald, and Oval shaped diamonds'



I often see this quote from AGSL literature. I have writtent to AGSL and have gotten response that they would no longer say this without qualification, but they have not kept their word on the matter. The AGSL was NOT the first lab to do this and my friend, Peter Yantzer would admit that this is salesmanship and not the entire truth. My old lab, AGA, was offering cut grades for nearly every shape of diamond from the early 1990's, before the AGSL was even in existence. I can't say the AGSL has not done a better job of marketing their product and few would doubt the quality of their work, but this ongoing mis-statement of fact does disturb me because it is wrong, they have been put on notice and acknowledged it, and it is not of great importance to their continued success. Just because something is in print, does not make it accurate.

David, I may be missing something, but the statement you highlighted in yellow doesn't claim that AGS was the first to offer it. As written, it claims to be the only lab *currently* (see use of present tense in their statement highlighted in orange) offering a cut grade for these shapes.

Unless your old lab is still offering grading reports (which seems not to be the case from your reference in past tense), it wouldn't be an invalid claim.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 8/10/2009 12:37:31 PM
Author: Allison D.

Date: 8/10/2009 12:14:23 PM

Author: oldminer

'The Diamond Quality® Document is the industry’s only document that offers a cut grade for Round Brilliant, Princess, Emerald, and Oval shaped diamonds'




I often see this quote from AGSL literature. I have writtent to AGSL and have gotten response that they would no longer say this without qualification, but they have not kept their word on the matter. The AGSL was NOT the first lab to do this and my friend, Peter Yantzer would admit that this is salesmanship and not the entire truth. My old lab, AGA, was offering cut grades for nearly every shape of diamond from the early 1990's, before the AGSL was even in existence. I can't say the AGSL has not done a better job of marketing their product and few would doubt the quality of their work, but this ongoing mis-statement of fact does disturb me because it is wrong, they have been put on notice and acknowledged it, and it is not of great importance to their continued success. Just because something is in print, does not make it accurate.

David, I may be missing something, but the statement you highlighted in yellow doesn't claim that AGS was the first to offer it. As written, it claims to be the only lab *currently* (see use of present tense in their statement highlighted in orange) offering a cut grade for these shapes.


Unless your old lab is still offering grading reports (which seems not to be the case from your reference in past tense), it wouldn't be an invalid claim.

David’s old lab continues, they just aren’t owned by David any more (they are now under the excellent leadership of Chris DeCamillo) , hence the use of the past tense. Actually, most of the 'boutique' style labs will offer cut grading on stones other than rounds including mine and Richard’s down in Florida. AGSL was definitely not the first and they are definitely not the only one to be doing this. They may not even be the biggest because I think IGI does at least some of this as well.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[oldminer]

AGA still offers a cut grade diamond report. If this was not an ongoing issue, I would not have brought it up. AGSL is not the first lab and not the only lab...............Thanks.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/10/2009 1:15:47 PM
Author: oldminer
AGA still offers a cut grade diamond report. If this was not an ongoing issue, I would not have brought it up. AGSL is not the first lab and not the only lab...............Thanks.

I would expect a reputable Lab like AGS to respect your wishes...
Its amazing how these Entities are sometimes acting with no sense...

 

[oldminer]

The bigger picture is that I am still able to consider that Peter Y. as a friend and that I do have respect for what AGSL has accomplished. My relatively little issue means a lot to me and very little to them and it is definitely not worth any legal action to stop it. I doubt I have suffered any actual financial damages and I doubt it has done them much good to exaggerate. I just do what I can to set the record straight from time to time.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/10/2009 1:42:57 PM
Author: oldminer
The bigger picture is that I am still able to consider that Peter Y. as a friend and that I do have respect for what AGSL has accomplished. My relatively little issue means a lot to me and very little to them and it is definitely not worth any legal action to stop it. I doubt I have suffered any actual financial damages and I doubt it has done them much good to exaggerate. I just do what I can to set the record straight from time to time.

Thats what I mean..., sometimes the little things are the ones that can do more damage than any good....
Good to know..., I will pass on the "straight record" from time to time as well...

We live in a rather small community...