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AGS Ideal-0 but HCA > 2

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WalnutCrunch

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Feb 21, 2003
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Here's an H&A diamond I was looking at:

AGS Cert
0.608ct, F, VS2
cut: ideal
table: 55%
depth: 62%
crown: 35.2 deg
Pav: 41 deg
culet: none

Its HCA score is 2.9, yet it's an AGS ideal-0 stone (so there's a premium on it because AGS considers its proportions ideal). Was I right to pass on it?

Thanks
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
WalnutCrunch:
----------------
... Was I right to pass on it?
----------------
)

Diamonds like this usually have more light leakage and smaller spread (diameter for its weight).
[/u]
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
The AGS scale is very broad and will thus encompass
diamonds that are not top-performers on maxing out
on light output and minimizing light leakage.
No need to pay premiums for these kind of stones.

Stick with diamonds that have
55-57% Tables
60.5-61.8% Depth
Pavillion angles=40.7-41

There is a noticeable difference.

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
6,271
Barry his stone meets all the criteria you list with the exception that his stone had 62% depth and you wrote up to 61.8% Do you think .2 % difference in depth is going to make a difference?

Or perhaps did you mean to add crown angles around the 34.5 degree zone?

Rhino
 

WalnutCrunch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
48
----------------
On 3/4/2003 9:38:52 PM leonid wrote:


)

Diamonds like this usually have more light leakage and smaller spread (diameter for its weight).

----------------
It's about an average price for a Canadian stone sold in Canada. It's hard to compare apples to apples with prices on the net because it's a Canadian stone and we have weird "luxury" taxes that are included in our prices (although for most guys it's a requirement to get one of these things in order to get married, how is that a luxury??). But it's comparable to other prices I've seen (like on diamondfile.com); so it's a fair price for a Canadian .60 F VS2 AGS-ideal0.

The jeweller said before that a stone sometimes doesn't quite make an ideal-0 grade and the cutter recuts it and sends it back to AGS. Is it possible that this is a recut? (not that anyone is able to tell me for sure, just wondering if it's really worth their time/money to do this).


[/u]
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
Walnut;

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but Canadian diamond prices are a joke.

Even with your confiscatory and onerous taxation policies,
you can still get a better quality, higher performing
diamond, purchased here in the USA over the internet
for less money and sent to you across the border.

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 

niceice

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
1,792

----------------
On 3/4/2003 9:26:39 PM WalnutCrunch wrote:
Here's an H&A diamond I was looking at:

AGS Cert
0.608ct, F, VS2
cut: ideal
table: 55%
depth: 62%
crown: 35.2 deg
Pav: 41 deg
culet: none

----------------

It is doubtful that the hearts and arrows pattern was crisp and complete with that crown angle, it's too deep and will usually produce a faded pattern of arrows... And with that total depth, it is going to "face up" smaller than a diamond of the same carat weight that is cut with a total depth below 61.8% you would be better to find a diamond that is a "tighter zero" with proportions within the following range:

Total depth 59 - 61.8%
Table: 55 - 56%
Crown angle: 34.3 - 34.8 degrees
Pavilion angle: 40.5 - 40.9 degrees

And if you want the diamond to "score" higher, just keep the pavilion angle under 40.8 degrees - something that we don't agree with since many a beautiful stone has a pavilion angle of 40.9 degrees, but that's how the scale goes these days... By the way, the "target" pavilion angle for the original H&A diamonds was 40.9 degrees with a 34.5 degree crown angle...

The AGS scale like most "scales" is based on a range with a high and low end of parameters to make it acceptable to the trade, the range we suggest above is essentially the center of the range which we speculate is what the AGS Lab would have made the parameters for the zero cut to be if they could have gotten away with it (read: and still got the cutters to use their services).
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
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Hard call to make Walnut concerning the recut. If we use the philosophy of innocent until proven guilty then we'll have to assume it wasn't. Only way to know for sure is to ask and hope you're getting the truth. However whether it was a recut or not should not so much be the problem as much as how beautiful it is NOW.

The fact that the diamond is a hearts & arrows stone means that in diffuse light you should get nice contrast and a very good looking stone. In direct light there are hearts & arrows that do have more intense brilliancy (or scintillation) but compared to what jewelery stores are selling you could be doing a lot worse. That's for sure. Attached is a .gem file potentially showing how your stone may indeed perform so you'll need the Gem Advisor software which is free on this site to open the attached file. Here's the link. http://www.pricescope.com/MSU/default.asp (btw Leonid, how do I post a clickable link?)

Here is a simulated FireScope image. Chances are that the stone isn't as perfectly symmetrical as this picture (before Gary gets onto me for posting such a perfect symmetrical picture
) but the pale white under the table is indicative of leakage in those areas which a stone with those angles would produce. If the jeweler is treating you right and giving you a fair shake for your money go for it. It depends on how anal you want to get.


Peace,
Rhino
 

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Rhino

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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btw ... here's another .gem file showing you want you COULD be getting if you got the typical kaka that's offered in most stores. If you pull up both .gem files and do a side by side comparison you'll see what I mean by "you could have done much worse".
Tip ... put them both in disco light and hit the green play button and you'll see how much more beautiful the H&A is in a side by side comparison. Hope that helps.

Peace,
Rhino
 

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canadianice

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
82
WalnutCrunch -

I am in Canada too (Toronto) and after looking at local options, I decided to get a diamond sent from the USA. If you decide to do the same you will save a bundle.

I went through USA Certed Diamonds and SuperbCert, and am thrilled with what I got: a truly spectacular stone!

USA Certed Diamonds is actually in Thornhill, Ontario, and helped with all aspects of shipping the diamond into Canada.

I was initially apprehensive about buying sight unseen, but if you can find a site such as USA Certed, SuperbCert or Good Old Gold -- with the information such as Brilliance Scope, enlarged 10X photos, certificates, Sarin analysis --you won't go wrong with that route.
Good luck!
CI
 

TigerWoods

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2003
Messages
26
Walnut,
I'm in the same boat as you. Living in Canada, I've been doing my research (quite obsessively, I might add) on this site and others. I consider myself to have above-average intelligence (and obviously above-average cockiness), and am quickly learning that Canadian diamond prices are generally garbage.

I have found a couple of prospects here in Toronto that may be able to compete with the likes of Jonathon of GoodOldGold.com (an internet and B&M jeweler) and Barry of SuperbCert.com (currently I'm in preliminary talks with one of his vendors-Martin)

Dude, it's like finding a needle in a haystack, but the cheap (I like to call it "consumer savvy") b*stard that I am, I will make sure I am getting the best deal possible on crazy-super-cut diamond.

Having said that, I've done all the ground work for you already. If quality is the number one priority, then look no further on the internet. You've got a good enough inventory with the 2 sites I've already mentioned. Any more will just confuse the crap outta you. Use them as the bar to measure against. Go and find someone in Canada to see if they can give you a diamond that is as well cut and as low in price.

I haven't even bought the rock yet but as long as these 2 sites check out in the integrity/ethical department because they're internet dealers (and it seems that they do check very well from what I've read so far), one of them will probably earn my money, from just price and reputation alone.

Check it out and let me know if you or anyone else reading this finds out otherwise, 'cause this is the sad truth.

Walnut, If you wanna know who the vendors in Toronto that I'm talking about are, feel free to private message me.
I'm still looking for more Canadian vendors that can almost stand up to these U.S. vendors in price.

Enough, I gotta go to sleep....this is consuming me.....
Hope this helps...
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Messages
441
CI;

Let me guess; are you the "kindred spirit"?

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
6,271
Thanks for the kind words Tiger and CI. Tiger, by all means you'd do everyone a favor by saying who the Canadian person is. Listen, there's plenty to go around and sharing the name of a good contact with anyone can't be a bad thing. If I have a counterpart B&M in Canada I'd like to know as well and if it's more convenient for any of my clients in Canada to go there I wouldn't hesitate to send business his way. I know it's tough for Canadian B&M's with all the taxes and all but if there's a way they can work around that more power to em. My goal is not to steal sales from Canadian jewelers and if I can help any out in any way I am for that.

Peace,
Rhino
 

canadianice

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
82
Barry -

Good detective work! Maybe diamond cutting wasn't your only calling...

Canadian "SuperbCerted" Ice, perhaps?
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
"By Golly, Holmes! You've found it!

Seriously CI, a pleasure to meet you on this forum.

My best to your family.

Regards,

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 

WalnutCrunch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
48
Thanks Barry, Tiger, CI...

I've got my reasons for choosing to go with a Canadian stone from a Canadian jeweller. I know I'll pay more for it and that's okay, as long as it's a good stone for a good price (relative to prices from other Canadian vendors, that is).

Thanks for the suggestions though.
 

canadianice

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
82
... and your reasons are more than good enough to buy from a Canadian jeweller, as long as you buy informed!

Good luck with your decision, WalnutCrunch.

Please post more stats and stones for us to dissect!

Cheers
 

WalnutCrunch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
48
----------------
On 3/4/2003 10:27:48 PM Rhino wrote:
If the jeweler is treating you right and giving you a fair shake for your money go for it. It depends on how anal you want to get.
----------------
Rhino:

Thanks for running it thru the diamcalc for me. You've been a real help!

I am quite anal and, like I said, the price is average for what looks like a below average AGS ideal-0 stone. I'll pass on it.


NiceIce, Rhino, Barry:

Thanks for your expert opinions on this and on every other topic in this forum. I've been keeping a close eye on this forum for a month now and I've learned so much during my diamond search!


Leonid:

Fantastic site. You have a great bunch of helpful, knowledgeable people here. Keep up the good work.
 

PuddyKat

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 4, 2002
Messages
91
Hi WalnutCrunch!

So this is what happens when you make your first post! LOL!
I'm glad the pros are able to help you with your decision. Good luck with your continued search....

Puddykat

P.S. My fiance and I were at Parker Place on Sunday and we walked by Albert's again! What kinda certs does he have there?
 

WalnutCrunch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
48
----------------
On 3/4/2003 10:23:39 PM niceice wrote:


It is doubtful that the hearts and arrows pattern was crisp and complete with that crown angle, it's too deep and will usually produce a faded pattern of arrows... And with that total depth, it is going to "face up" smaller than a diamond of the same carat weight that is cut with a total depth below 61.8% you would be better to find a diamond that is a "tighter zero" with proportions within the following range:


----------------
You're right, niceice! I think I noticed the H&A pattern was "different" than others I've seen. I'll watch for that from now on.

Here's the latest stone I was given to consider... Another poor scorer on the HCA (2.5, poor for an AGS ideal anyway). I'm guessing it'd have the same problems?

AGS ideal
H&A
F SI1
5.78 - 5.80 x 3.52
.706ct
table 55%
depth 60.8%
crown 34.7deg
pav 41.1deg
culet pointed

If anyone could help me run DiamCalc on it, that'd be great!

Thanks.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,271
Well ... you just happened to catch me as I was playin around so ... before is share with ya possibilities of your next consideration check out this FOR REAL stone I downloaded off a wholesale inventory that lists 3 dimensional Sarin data. I simply named the file poop and it is a stone being offered for sale on the net. I'll let the pajama boys sell this one.


poop.jpg
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,271
Here are 2 possibilites of your stone and it is possible your stone may not be either. One is with the shorter star/lower girdle combo the other is a longer star/lower girdle combo. In the case of the one you're looking at the longer s/lg combo seems to flatter those proportions best but both are showing considerable leakage under the table and is why it scores over a 2 on the HCA.

Hope this helps.

Rhino

walnut02.jpg
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,271
For those interested here is the .gem file on the poop stone. It's interesting to look at and also to check out the Gem ADvisor score too.
 

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TigerWoods

Rough_Rock
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Feb 8, 2003
Messages
26
One place in Toronto that carries good H&A stones is called Ani Jewelers.
Walnut, give them a shot. They're located in the Eaton Centre and they sell Hearts on Fire and Aurias (Canadian diamonds). You can negotiate the price with them and if you're not in Toronto, I believe they have a few locations across the country.

If you want to go totally pro-Canadian, Aurias/Ekati is a Canadian branded H&A, Canadian diamond (mined in the northwest territories).

I too would rather buy from a Canadian business (should support our own economy), but if the price discrepancy is big enough, I'll do what I gotta do.
 

niceice

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
1,792

----------------

Here's the latest stone I was given to consider... Another poor scorer on the HCA (2.5, poor for an AGS ideal anyway). I'm guessing it'd have the same problems?

AGS ideal
H&A
F SI1
5.78 - 5.80 x 3.52
.706ct
table 55%
depth 60.8%
crown 34.7deg
pav 41.1deg
culet pointed

If anyone could help me run DiamCalc on it, that'd be great!


----------------

Here again, the pattern of hearts and arrows is probably a bit off, but this time it is likely due to the pavilion angle being a bit steep. Just for fun, run the numbers on the HCA again, but this time drop the pavilion angle to 40.8 degrees and watch what happens to the score... Okay, with the understanding that we would prefer to have the high / low measurements for the crown and pavilion angles that the averages are based upon AND we let the DC estimate the girdle thickness for itself since it wasn't provided... Here is what we got:



Now last time we posted one of these, Garry Holloway told us that we weren't doing it quite right yet and that may still be true... Certainly the results would be more accurate with more information... So take this with a grain of salt...
 

WalnutCrunch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
48
Rhino,

Thanks for spending the time to run it thru diamond calc (again). It helps me a lot!

Would you say that HCA is a good indication of how the stone would perform in diamcalc? Or are there some that can do well in one but not the other?


Nice Ice:

Thanks for your input as well. Think I won't be buying this stone either.
 

WalnutCrunch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
48
----------------
On 3/5/2003 10:54:38 PM Tiger Woods wrote:

One place in Toronto that carries good H&A stones is called Ani Jewelers.
Walnut, give them a shot. They're located in the Eaton Centre and they sell Hearts on Fire and Aurias (Canadian diamonds). You can negotiate the price with them and if you're not in Toronto, I believe they have a few locations across the country.

If you want to go totally pro-Canadian, Aurias/Ekati is a Canadian branded H&A, Canadian diamond (mined in the northwest territories).

I too would rather buy from a Canadian business (should support our own economy), but if the price discrepancy is big enough, I'll do what I gotta do.

----------------
Thanks for the suggestions, Tiger. I'm actually in Vancouver. I've found a couple of jewellers so far with Canadian diamonds (mined and cut in Canada but not branded like Aurias/Ekati or Sirius, etc). So far the selection hasn't been great. Hoping for more stones to come in, whenever that's going to happen.

I've also found some Ekati and Sirius diamonds at a couple of mall stores, but they want waaaay too much for them. They're nice but not for those prices.

There's only a handful of jewellers here that sell unbranded (well they only have a maple leaf and some sort of number or NWT number on them) Canadian AGS triple-ideal stones.

While I would really prefer to get a Canadian stone from a Canadian vendor, I'll start looking elsewhere if I find I'm not getting what I need at a price I want to pay.
 

mattinSD

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
23
Walnut,

If you're in Vancouver, try "Excusively Diamonds" ask for Dean (they have an internet site). They only deal in D,E,F colors and ideal, H&A cuts. Although I didn't buy from them, they offered excellent pricing.

Edited to add:

Diamond I was looking at:

.796cts
D
AGS0
SI1
Scored 0.8 on HCA
Table: 56%
Depth: 61.4
Crown Angle: 35.3
Pavillion Angle: 40.6
Medium Facet
Pointed

Quote was $3250 US (which is a good price for those specs).
 
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