AGS H vs GIA

[ringtoma]

Hey,

I just bought a 1.15 carat, ideal cut, H-color, SI1 round diamond from Ritani. As its my first online purchase I took it to a wholesaler I know to see if what I bought is actually what I received. He told me all the other specs spot on, but said the color was a J. He told me that AGS is usually 2 shades off GIA. This is really drilling my brain because I don't know if I should return the diamond or he was just bitter as online retailers are stealing part of his business. Please help

 

[Gypsy]

No. He's lying because you didn't buy the diamond from him and wants you to return it by scaring you.

This is why we always say that you NEVER get another jeweler to appraise for you. Because they will lie.

You need an independent appraiser. https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers Find one here.

AGS trades at a HIGHER price than GIA. WHY because it is considered a preimum certification. And is never 2 shades off on color. Only VERY RARELY have they been one shade off on color. And it is so very rare that it is not reflected in their trading prices. And even GIA is ocassionally wrong (you send your diamond in to update your lab report and it comes back a different color than your original certificate).

 

[ame]

No. He's lying because you didn't buy the diamond from him and wants you to return it by scaring you.

This is why we always say that you NEVER get another jeweler to appraise for you. Because they will lie.

You need an independent appraiser. https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers Find one here.

AGS trades at a HIGHER price than GIA. WHY because it is considered a preimum certification. And is never 2 shades off on color. Only VERY RARELY have they been one shade off on color. And it is so very rare that it is not reflected in their trading prices. And even GIA is ocassionally wrong (you send your diamond in to update your lab report and it comes back a different color than your original certificate).

Cosign. This guy does not have your interests in mind, at all, he wants you to buy from him. Find someone who's not affiliated with a jeweler.

 

[Gypsy]

On appraisals:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/content.php?c=17


On lab reports
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-report

From that link:
"IGI and EGL are like large statewide universities.

GIA is Ivy League, and AGS is like the MIT rocket-science program.

A polisher or manufacturer sends each diamond (student) to the place it will get the best grade (earn more $).

The good to average go to the large universities (IGI/EGL).

The better ones are sent to the Ivy League (GIA / HRD) and a few nerds go to MIT (AGS).
Drop outs end up in a ‘program’ at a chain store or Joe's Bar & Grading Lab.

This fun analogy underplays complex factors such as a cutters specialty and client base and a dealers target market."

 

[heididdl]

Hey,

I just bought a 1.15 carat, ideal cut, H-color, SI1 round diamond from Ritani. As its my first online purchase I took it to a wholesaler I know to see if what I bought is actually what I received. He told me all the other specs spot on, but said the color was a J. He told me that AGS is usually 2 shades off GIA. This is really drilling my brain because I don't know if I should return the diamond or he was just bitter as online retailers are stealing part of his business. Please help

SOUR grapes who is this guy is he GIA or AGS or is he someone who graduated from their and is disappointed you didn't buy from him. He's lying. AGS is not usually 2 shades of from GIA...

 

[ChristineRose]

Oh yeah, the ever popular wholesaler who will take time out from his busy day negotiating with the handful of diamond cutters and diamond miners scattered across the world to pick out a nice rock to sell you at retail. I'm amazed any diamonds ever get cut what with all the wholesalers pressing those cutters for bargains.

 

[ringtoma]

He is kind of related to me. I thought he was very trustworthy as he regularly sells to retailers more than individuals. He showed me a couple of stones, but I decided to go with the other one. Like I said I think he is very trustworthy, but I was surprised that he said that regularly AGS grades 2 shades lower than GIA. On the appraisal, are all of the ones featured in periscope legit in the sense that they won't switch my stone? Thank you for all your advice, as you can clearly see I am a beginner

 

[ChristineRose]

Check their memberships and then check with the issuing organization to verify their memberships and certifications.

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond_appraisers_why_you_need_one_and_what_expect

There's always a chance that someone with legit credentials will turn crooked on the day you walk into the office but nobody gets away with that sort of think for very long, at least not without coming to the attention of the certifiers.

 

[Dancing Fire]

He is kind of related to me. I thought he was very trustworthy as he regularly sells to retailers more than individuals. He showed me a couple of stones, but I decided to go with the other one. Like I said I think he is very trustworthy, but I was surprised that he said that regularly AGS grades 2 shades lower than GIA. On the appraisal, are all of the ones featured in periscope legit in the sense that they won't switch my stone? Thank you for all your advice, as you can clearly see I am a beginner

Rule #1...never buy from a friend of the family.

 

[AprilBaby]

It's possible he is honest but really ignorant.

 

[ringtoma]

So it seems that an AGS H would be considered near colorless by the strictest standards?

 

[krisjon]

On appraisals:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/content.php?c=17


On lab reports
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-report

From that link:
"IGI and EGL are like large statewide universities.

GIA is Ivy League, and AGS is like the MIT rocket-science program.

A polisher or manufacturer sends each diamond (student) to the place it will get the best grade (earn more $).

The good to average go to the large universities (IGI/EGL).

The better ones are sent to the Ivy League (GIA / HRD) and a few nerds go to MIT (AGS).
Drop outs end up in a ‘program’ at a chain store or Joe's Bar & Grading Lab.

This fun analogy underplays complex factors such as a cutters specialty and client base and a dealers target market."

That was awesome, Gypsy. Still laughing. That needs to be a forum sticky.

 

[Gypsy]

Listen.

Here's the thing. An appraiser won't switch out your stone, not a reputable one. And no offense but a 1.15 carat stone isn't exactly worth your reputation and livlihood, not to mention your freedom if you are caught. But the best thing about appraisals is that they can be done RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU.

So make an appointment and go in for yourself.

Also have the appraiser show you how to identify your own stone with a loupe, and you never have to worry about that again.

There will be an AGS inscription. And inclusions. You should note both.

 

[MarionC]

He is kind of related to me. I thought he was very trustworthy as he regularly sells to retailers more than individuals. He showed me a couple of stones, but I decided to go with the other one. Like I said I think he is very trustworthy, but I was surprised that he said that regularly AGS grades 2 shades lower than GIA. On the appraisal, are all of the ones featured in periscope legit in the sense that they won't switch my stone? Thank you for all your advice, as you can clearly see I am a beginner

Just last week I had a trusted gemologist whom I've known for 20+ years tell me my newly purchased GIA G was an H. I got an independent GIA gemologist appraisal. The appraiser determined that the stone was a true G ...and warned me about completely trusting an appraiser who may have an agenda.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Grading of color and clarity remains subjective, and this is against the grain of the consumer's desires.

Judging diamonds graded by various labs on a daily basis, with the goal of purchasing, we constantly reject stones because we do not feel comfortable with the lab's grading. This can be GIA, HRD, ... At the same time, we also buy a lot because we agree with the grade, and sometimes, because we judge the grade to be too strict.

All that does not mean that the labs are wrong on those stones, it just means that we see them differently.

Live long,

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Like Paul says, because official color calls are made at the lab by human graders, there is some element of subjectivity involved. And because colors are very small ranges of the spectrum a given diamond could be a high H or a low H, in which case it becomes understandable that another experienced grader could call it a grade higher or lower. For this reason, there is an understood and accepted potential variance of one grade between top tier labs.

It should be pointed out that the labs use many tools to maintain consistency in human grading, including electronic color scanning technology. In addition, a carefully vetted set of color masters are used to compare the diamond being graded. (color masters assembled by AGSL are also graded by GIA for maximum synchronization). And as the diamonds get larger, the labs require consensus from multiple graders of increasing experience levels before a report is finalized.

For a diamond trader to make the assertion that he regularly sees a differential of two grades between AGS and GIA is either disingenuous or uninformed. First, because of costs very few diamonds are submitted to both labs. Therefore, you would have to have a very special business to see many examples. It would be the manufacturers who would have occasion to see a statistically significant sampling and to therefore have an informed opinion of any particular grading trends.

Most of the experts will tell you that there is variance in a minority of cases. And it is typically a one grade variance which goes both ways. Since the same is true of clarity grading, in some cases where the two labs do not completely agree, one lab will lower on color while the other is lower on clarity.

The key for the consumer regarding the grading of diamonds is the quality and especially the integrity of the lab issuing the report. GIA and AGS are sister organizations with a shared heritage of consumer protection and education. The same cannot be said for all labs, and certainly is not true of everyone practicing diamond trading!

 

[downundermate]

I just recently purchased a H color AGS Brian Gavin Siganture round diamond.
I'm yet to receive the stone.
I'm worried now as my gf has been wearing a G color GIA stone for the past 2 months.
Also, it is being set in a 18k white gold ring with f/g color side diamonds.
Do you think my gf would notice any difference in the color?
Anyone else have H color AGS stones? What are your experiences?

 

[WinkHPD]

I just recently purchased a H color AGS Brian Gavin Siganture round diamond.
I'm yet to receive the stone.
I'm worried now as my gf has been wearing a G color GIA stone for the past 2 months.
Also, it is being set in a 18k white gold ring with f/g color side diamonds.
Do you think my gf would notice any difference in the color?
Anyone else have H color AGS stones? What are your experiences?

It has been my experience that many of my clients, when viewing well cut diamonds, can not differentiate between a G and an H color when viewed face up. Some can not even when viewed from the side. And this is when the two diamonds are side by side. I really expect her not to notice any difference when the diamond is mounted, as the BG Signature diamonds are going to be well cut. Of course, the only way to know for sure is for her to see the diamond.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

Converting from the grade of one lab to the grade of another is a topic of GREAT interest both here and in the trade and, put blunty, it simply doesn’t work.
The problem is inherent in the way statistics work.
For example:
Take 100 stones and send them to 2 labs for color grading. 75 of them come back identical, 12 of them come back one grade off one direction, 2 come back 2 grades off, one in each direction, and 12 come back one grade in the other direction.

On average, these two labs are identical.
The median is identical.
The mode is identical.
None of that is consolation if you got one of those outliers.

It gets worse, and the labs cheat here. Send those same 100 stones back to those same 2 labs and you’ll get different results! When I say the labs cheat, I mean that they use Sarin and other data to recognize stones that they’ve seen before so when a grader makes a color call they know what they called it last month. This doesn’t mean they will always match the prior results but I’m confident it colors their judgment. In any case, that’s the problem. Not only can’t you say that one of the above 2 labs is better than the other, they don’t even need to be different!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

On average, these two labs are identical.
The median is identical.
The mode is identical.
None of that is consolation if you got one of those outliers.

Neil,
I bolded what I think is the essence of your summary and which I also believe is the main concern most people have about diamond grading. And this is why many consumers choose to consult independent professionals that are knowledgeable, experienced and ethical when it comes to their major diamond purchases.

I think there is an even broader perspective to be considered in regard to this issue. While we have tools and methods to compare apples to apples with respect to some diamonds, particularly round diamonds cut to a high level of precision and graded by the top labs, in the end each diamond retains some individuality. Many decry "commoditization" of diamonds, but the lack of it is what causes the consumer concerns about even slight differences of opinion between the top labs.

And it is because there are financial implications of one grade vs another that consumers are understandably concerned. Because an element of subjectivity is inherent, I think the best advice for the consumer is to take a holistic approach to the purchase. Just as we say that there is no one magic crown or pavilion angle or table, star or lower girdle percentage that is ideal - they all work in combination - the 'ideal' purchase is about a number of considerations in combination. It's about getting a beautiful diamond that has the properties that are most important to you and that fits your budget, and having peace of mind in knowing that it has been evaluated by a trusted laboratory and that you are dealing with an reputable merchant. It is also about considering the policies of that merchant in terms of things like trade-up in case the properties that are important to you today happen to change in the years ahead.

You are in fact buying a diamond and not a piece of paper. When you buy a true commodity, each unit is identical and the mentality of the purchase is very different. Buying a diamond can be a much more gratifying experience if you take a balanced approach to all the elements.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Hey,

I just bought a 1.15 carat, ideal cut, H-color, SI1 round diamond from Ritani. As its my first online purchase I took it to a wholesaler I know to see if what I bought is actually what I received. He told me all the other specs spot on, but said the color was a J. He told me that AGS is usually 2 shades off GIA. This is really drilling my brain because I don't know if I should return the diamond or he was just bitter as online retailers are stealing part of his business. Please help

Never trust a person who could possibly be someone who's trying to sell you a diamond because they might be bitter (as you said) or make you second guess your purchase so you buy from them instead.

Just an experience I had: I took a pair of earrings to one jewelry store (Ben Bridge), to have them cleaned, and they said the earrings were one of the prettiest pairs of earrings they had ever seen, then I showed the exact same pair to two sales people in a second jewelry store (Jared's), to show what I could get online, and they told me the diamonds were cloudy and horrible *and at this store, I was also expressing my interest in buying a loose stone for a pendant*, then I took the same pair to DIFFERENT sales people at the first store many months later and the different sales people also raved on how fabulous the stones were... Point is the middle store had an agenda so they tried to make me question my purchase!