AGS, GIA, IGI question

[Dreamgirl]

I''ve looked and haven''t found the info I am looking for. Can someone explain to me what AGS, GIA, IGI and the others mean and the differences between them please? I understand that (ex.) a GIA brings "peace of mind" where as an IGI doesn''t, but how/why? I don''t understand and would like to know. Does this have something to do with the quality of the diamond then too?

Thanks!

 

[John P]

To the surprise of many consumers diamond grading is not regulated. This means different labs have different standards.

In a nutshell, the labs of the GIA and AGS (both organizations were founded long ago by Robert Shipley) have the strongest reputations for overall strictness in color and clarity, and the AGS is elite in its strictness in terms of cut.

The IGI grades the most diamonds but in America that's because their standards are softer. A diamond sent to IGI will typically receive higher grades than it would if sent to AGS or GIA. This makes IGI popular among manufacturers and sellers (who profit from this) but it dilutes the original standards and creates confusion among consumers.

There is currently a call for international grading standards. As human subjectivity is coupled, more and more, with technology I think this is inevitable someday.

Past discussion of IGI/GIA in this thread.

 

[oldminer]

The categories of grading; color, clarity and more recently cut are all arbitrary determinations primarily based on human observation and perception. At the time color and clarity grading began in somewhat the form it has still today, little equipment or science was used. Master sets were put together and people who were skilled and dedicated to gemology worked on the creation of a pretty decent system. As labs came on the scene each one tweaks the existing system to suit their comfort zone and the demands of their biggest clients. This doesn't always appear to be the best, purest model, but it is the way a free market works. No markets work better than free ones although many experiments with highly regulated markets have been tried all around the world. Few markets where government tampers with freedom work well for long unless you happen to be the ruler of the country.

GIA and AGS grade quite similarly. There are nuances of how they vary a bit from one another, but not enough for a consumer to become anxious. IGI definitely knows what they are doing, too. Their grading is thought to be a bit, or a bit more, looser, but we have found them quite consistent in result. In India, where I am a partner in a lab competing with the huge and well accepted IGI, the Indians have grown to accept IGI grading as correct and GIA grading as too harsh for most regular diamonds.

No one is in charge of how to slice the cake. The free market adjusts pricing in a very intelligent way, but a consumer who is committed to a letter of the alphabet for color or a paticular clarity grade ought to understand that the systems of every lab differ from one another a tiny bit to noticeably different. Do not let a retailer convince you into thinking that every lab is the same. This is not true. Labs bring a semblance of order to grading a natural product such as a diamond. It is not perfect science. Essentially you should set a budget, look into various diamonds you can afford, understand the grade of the stone and the lab, select one which is pretty and enjoy giving it to someone you have deep feelings for.

You can shop and learn on the Internet. You can buy from an on-line or B&M seller once you know the drill on how much you should be paying. It is competitive once you have done your homework.

 

[wisteria]

sorry that I''m hijacking the thread.

Talk about GIA certificate, I read everywhere that the crown and pavilion angles are not listed on GIA reports. That''s why people may want to look at Sarin or ogi reports. However, when I was looking for diamonds on JamesAllen website, most of the GIA certificates DO have these angles listed!

I''m confused.

 

[mercoledi]

Someone please correct me if I''m wrong, but I believe often on GIA reports the angles are indicated in a diagram of the diamond and not listed separately. Also older GIA reports (early 90''s?) don''t always include that information.

 

[wisteria]

exactly what I was talking about. The angle information was indicated on that little diagram.

 

[John P]

Date: 6/17/2008 1:39:39 PM
Author: wisteria
sorry that I'm hijacking the thread.

Talk about GIA certificate, I read everywhere that the crown and pavilion angles are not listed on GIA reports. That's why people may want to look at Sarin or ogi reports. However, when I was looking for diamonds on JamesAllen website, most of the GIA certificates DO have these angles listed!

I'm confused.

They began grading cut for round brilliants in 2006. The new generation of reports includes the diagram Mercoledi mentioned with proportions (some are rounded).

 

[sukiisukii]

quick question, where does the EGL stand amongst the labs?

 

[John P]

Date: 6/17/2008 1:56:59 PM
Author: sukiisukii
quick question, where does the EGL stand amongst the labs?

EGL-USA is better than their labs abroad (EGL-Israel, in particular, has a dubious rep). In my experience they're between IGI and GIA, and the people I know at EGL-USA & Canada would like to close the gap.


I posted this in a previous thread. It's a comparison I use for dealer training:

IGI is the world's largest.
EGL is also vast.
GIA is global, but more elite diamonds are sent there.
AGS' presence is largely in North America and they grade a fraction of the diamonds the others do.

Think of grading labs like universities: IGI and EGL are like large statewide universities. GIA is like an Ivy League school and AGS is like the MIT advanced rocket-science program. As a manufacturer I will send each diamond (student) to the place he or she will have most success. The average to good ones (most) go off to the large universities (IGI/EGL). The fewer, more elite ones with the ability to score high or with a specialty are sent to the Ivy League (GIA). A few I know to be worthy of passing the rigors of rocket-science (these will be sold to NASA) will go to MIT (AGS).

A few at the bottom of the pile go to city college (Joe's Bar & Grading Lab).

The above is meant as humor, but there is a parallel logic: The path a diamond takes from cutter to lab to seller is chosen on-purpose based on a number of factors which include the target market and knowing how well (or not) a diamond will score at one lab vs the next.

 

[sukiisukii]

thanks john! i love your analogies! definitely puts things into perspective. let me know if you plan on teaching a GIA course, i''ll be there

 

[mercoledi]

Nice break-down John! Thanks!

 

[Dreamgirl]

Thank you for your help John and oldminer. I think this makes more sense to me now.

john- Your example of universities makes complete sense to me.

oldminer- I would like to have a Tiffany ring and I just read one of your posts about how Tiffany does their own grading system.

I had a concern for a ring my boyfriend happened to notice at Sams Club. I guess it caught his eye while walking by when he saw the price tag because he said he thought they only sold cheap jewelery. They claim it came out of another retailer on 5th Ave NYC. I looked at it just for the heck of it but knew right away I didn't like the setting as it stood too high for me. It was an IGI h&a, I, vs1, 1ct plat. solitaire claiming the original price to be $14,000+ but selling it for $6,000. I saw the arrows through an ideal scope and the cut seemed off to me, as if it were not centered (unless it was just me.) The prongs looked a little off and the stone seemed like a .60ct rather than a 1ct stone with a poor spread. I remembered seeing IGI on PS and I was thinking that this stone at Sams was poor quality due to all these faults I saw as well as thinking 14,000 seemed like (a lie?) to make the consumer think they were getting a good deal because they were shopping at Sams. I also happen to know that you could get a Tiffany 1.01 I, vs1 for less than $14,000. I myself, am not comfortable at all with purchasing a diamond from them as they don't specialize in it. Would you agree with that?

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 6/17/2008 2:04:05 PM
Author: John Pollard

Think of grading labs like universities: IGI and EGL are like large statewide universities. GIA is like an Ivy League school and AGS is like the MIT advanced rocket-science program.

John, how dare you steal this idea from the tutorial!

(Bad joke...it was lifted from JQ, actually...with his blessing, I''m sure).

Sorry to interrupt this important discussion...but my guess is that when Garry found guys like JQ missing from his more recent attempt to update the tutorial, he just decide to co-publish it for reasons not specified.

But I dunno.

 

[oldminer]

Inflated appraisal values combined with inflated theoretical retail amounts always have been a sore subject for me. Buying from firms which use unrealistic comparative "retail" prices and then immediately discount to their regular, discount prices are taking advantage of the naive consumer who often believes there is a tooth fairy, too. There just happen to be a whole lot of very naive consumers for them to work with. It is all so very tempting if it helps make sales.

There are so many differences between a Sam''s Club and a fine jewelry retailer that it would be an entire book to put it into print. The diamonds can be identical, but nothing about the feeling, atmosphere, ambiance, etc is remotely similar. More than likely, the diamonds won''t be the same either. People buy from mass marketers and are very happy most of the time. We buy lots of food from our local Sam''s Club, but we don''t shop there for jewelry. I don''t shop at Tiffany either, but I recognize the value behind the brand name Tiffany has built over many decades.

Tiffany grades their own diamonds because they feel they are very consistent in their grading and skilled at what they do. They are not rushed in the lab and are not grading for a profit. They are grading with their eye firmly set on building and retaining the integrity of their brand. If it costs them a few thousand bucks to do it their way, then they consider it money well spent. They grade conservatively and carefully and they have no one to please exzcept themselves and the consumer who shops in their stores. Few, if any, other retailer could do the same and survive.

 

[Dreamgirl]

Ok good. I thank you so much for these comments! I knew $14,000 sounded outrageous for this ring. I guess my boyfriend looked thinking it was something great based on that pricetag when I knew it wasn't right away. I couldn't believe he even stopped to look because he always felt the same way I did about jewelery from places like this. I think I will let him know about what you said here. As terrible as it sounds, I was not happy at all to have that ring on my finger. Compared to Tiffany, there was no comparison in my opinion, even in the setting. It just felt so wrong to me. haha! It was one extreme to the other. I agree with you on mass marketers, as I always felt I would never get any jewelery from Sams Club or any other place like this. Which is why I never physically looked at anything there before and honestly plan on never looking again.

 

[John P]

Date: 6/17/2008 2:23:55 PM
Author: Regular Guy

John, how dare you steal this idea from the tutorial!

(Bad joke...it was lifted from JQ, actually...with his blessing, I''m sure).

In fact they did ask me, which was kind, but I don''t think they needed to (see number 7).