Advice needed on a loose 1.26 RB stone. Yay or nay?

[lollipop282]

My SO and I went into a local store a couple of Saturdays ago when a sales associate at a reputable local jeweler called me to show me a loose stone a local diamond dealer brought her that morning. It was at the time uncertified but it was estimated by the store to be a 1.26 H - I, VS2 stone.

I compared it at the time to both a "good" and an "ideal" cut stone the store had in stock. I looked at the stones in the store and outside in both the shade and in the sun. The 1.26 had a lot more flash imo than the good (which I immeadiately ruled out) and a bit less than the ideal. Not enough less for me to rule it out as my forever stone, but it was a bit less if I'm being completely honest. (My SO and I have a no upgrade agreement that I fully intend to honor).

They offered us the stone for $5100 and the dealer sent it off to be certified the following Monday.

It came back today and here are the stats:

Carat: 1.26
Color: H
Clarity: VS2
Measurements: 6.77 x 6.7 x 4.44mm
Table: 56%
Total Depth: 65.9%
Crown Height: 15.6%
Crown Angle: 35 degrees
Pavillion Depth: 45.7%
Pavillion Angle: 42.3
Girdle: Very thin to Slightly thick
Cutlet: None

I understand that the stone is deep and as a result faces up a bit small. My questions are as follows:
* Is this a good price for a stone with these stats?
* Is the fact that I see good scintillation attributed to the crown measurements?
* So much of the stone measures nicely, except for the Pavillion and the total depth. Should those measurements make this stone a dealbreaker in your opinion?

Thanks in advance, I'm cursing myself for not taking pictures or video of the stone.

 

[RockAndRoll2006]

Was this certified by GIA?

 

[lollipop282]

Was this certified by GIA?

The LA branch of EGL USA. I was disappointed to see they certified it instead of GIA but it is what it is.

Since posting I've plugged these numbers in the tools provided by GIA and AGA and GIA ruled the stone "very good" (I know it's not the same as having them certify it but I'm trying to work with what I can) and AGA ranked the stone as 2A overall if that helps.

 

[teobdl]

Ignoring cut for a second, it's a good price for the carat weight color and clarity [edit:assuming they are accurate! You could also be getting totally screwed with a K SI2 or worse]. But I would not buy it because the most critical angle (pavilion) is way way way too deep. If your eyes like it then great you'll save lots of money. Still, I'd go back and make sure the ideal cut comparison diamond was one with superb proportions. It's possible that the ideal compassion stone you initially looked at was crappy as well.

 

[teobdl]

I should also say that a very thin girdle may affect durability. Just another point to consider.

 

[lollipop282]

Ignoring cut for a second, it's a good price for the carat weight color and clarity [edit:assuming they are accurate! You could also be getting totally screwed with a K SI2 or worse]. But I would not buy it because the most critical angle (pavilion) is way way way too deep. If your eyes like it then great you'll save lots of money. Still, I'd go back and make sure the ideal cut comparison diamond was one with superb proportions. It's possible that the ideal compassion stone you initially looked at was crappy as well.

I should also say that a very thin girdle may affect durability. Just another point to consider.

Thanks for your prompt responses teobdl!

I inspected the stone using both a loupe and a gemscope. It's definetely a VS clarity stone. As far as color goes I suspect that GIA or AGS would have called this stone an I in color. The dealer mentioned he thought it was going to come back an I too so I wouldn't be surprised if the H is a soft grade.

The part of your statement I bolded is what I'm torn on. Visually tbh I like the stone. It faces up very white and has nice scintillation. On the other hand if it's not truly a good value then I want to go back to the drawing board.

I forgot about the durability concern, I guess I thought that applied if it was very thin all over.

 

[Stive85]

The numbers for that stone are far from ideal, so I say you pass...

You'll hear a lot of opinions as per EGL USA graded stones on here, but I for one have had a good experience with them (although only one, rest GIA)... The LA lab is said to be the best of the bunch too..

HOWEVER... why not just get a 1.1 EGL USA certed stone that have ideal proportions, that is one thing they are right on the money about. As long as you can inspect the stone magnified etc, to make sure it matches your clarity expectations, why not?

I say it's an easy pass on this stone. Get something a tad bit smaller but with ideal proportions, as well as an idealscope if at all possible.

You set with this vendor? Your budget is?

 

[lollipop282]

The numbers for that stone are far from ideal, so I say you pass...

You'll hear a lot of opinions as per EGL USA graded stones on here, but I for one have had a good experience with them (although only one, rest GIA)... The LA lab is said to be the best of the bunch too..

HOWEVER... why not just get a 1.1 EGL USA certed stone that have ideal proportions, that is one thing they are right on the money about. As long as you can inspect the stone magnified etc, to make sure it matches your clarity expectations, why not?

I say it's an easy pass on this stone. Get something a tad bit smaller but with ideal proportions, as well as an idealscope if at all possible.

You set with this vendor? Your budget is?

I'm not set with this vendor, and our budget is around 5k. I found this stone on B2C, it seems like it would be a nice one. I'm not sure on experiences with this vendor on PriceScope, (even though they are a vendor here) so I looked at ones with the Blueprint.

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-5087273-1.00-carat-Round-diamond-I-color-VS2-clarity.aspx

 

[Stive85]

Again... Pass on that one, comes back 5.4 on HCA which is quite bad. Is there any stretch to your budget? Just an opinion, but get the best stone for the price you can afford.. If that means going just under a caret, it is a sacrifice worth it. There is no comparison with a top cut diamond, trust me.

 

[lollipop282]

Again... Pass on that one, comes back 5.4 on HCA which is quite bad. Is there any stretch to your budget? Just an opinion, but get the best stone for the price you can afford.. If that means going just under a caret, it is a sacrifice worth it. There is no comparison with a top cut diamond, trust me.

I am more than willing to sacrifice carat for cut. I'd be happy with a .80 tbh. This 1.26 was more of a surprise than a purposeful seek out.

I called the store (after calling EGL) and they actually have a 1 carat EX/EX/EX stone another customer ordered so tomorrow I'm going to compare the two to see if the difference is deal breaking for me.

 

[Stive85]

Again... Pass on that one, comes back 5.4 on HCA which is quite bad. Is there any stretch to your budget? Just an opinion, but get the best stone for the price you can afford.. If that means going just under a caret, it is a sacrifice worth it. There is no comparison with a top cut diamond, trust me.

I am more than willing to sacrifice carat for cut. I'd be happy with a .80 tbh. This 1.26 was more of a surprise than a purposeful seek out.

I called the store (after calling EGL) and they actually have a 1 carat EX/EX/EX stone another customer ordered so tomorrow I'm going to compare the two to see if the difference is deal breaking for me.

Under their lighting it will make the EGL stone look great too.. The lights are thousands of dollars and meant for that purpose. Let us help you get the best bang for your buck! Trust us!

I think it is great you would sacrifice caret for cut, because cut is by far the most important, but judging by the price of that EGL stone that is super deep, you can do better online and we can help!

Here is one I think you should ask for more info on (put on hold)... It's got great size and an excellent cut (also scores 1.6 on HCA)... I've bought a J colour and they are great, face up nice and white for the price for sure. I think this one is worth taking a look at for your budget.

http://www.exceldiamonds.com/Diamon...nd-1-12-Carat-J-Color-VS1-Clarity-353706.html

Ask to put on hold until you can get some pictures and an idealscope and post them on here..

 

[Dancing Fire]

Again... Pass on that one, comes back 5.4 on HCA which is quite bad. Is there any stretch to your budget? Just an opinion, but get the best stone for the price you can afford.. If that means going just under a caret, it is a sacrifice worth it. There is no comparison with a top cut diamond, trust me.

I am more than willing to sacrifice carat for cut. I'd be happy with a .80 tbh. This 1.26 was more of a surprise than a purposeful seek out.

I called the store (after calling EGL) and they actually have a 1 carat EX/EX/EX stone another customer ordered so tomorrow I'm going to compare the two to see if the difference is deal breaking for me.

Take a look at this one from BGD...

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/0.803-g-vs2-round-diamond-ags-c-104071505047

 

[SirGuy]

Lots of good points about cut being the most important of the 4 C's.

DF linked to what seems a very promising stone!

No reason to go for a heavier diamond that isn't cut as well. All that means is you'll have a bigger rock that isn't as sparkly. A diamond on its own isn't too special. The cut makes it so. Heck you could have a fist-sized quartz, that doesn't mean it's brilliant and full of fire. A smaller stone with ideal cut will look better than a bigger one without!

 

[Gypsy]

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only. EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

 

[lollipop282]

Thank you everyone for the fantastic advice!

I admit I tried to see if I could buy an idealscope on Amazon and overnight it

The Gavin Diamonds suggestion looks really nice! Thank you for showing it to me.

I found this one on excel diamonds from the original suggestion, it's EGL HK but has a hearts and arrows pic on the cert....

http://www.exceldiamonds.com/Diamon...lor-VS1-Clarity-429030.html?action=email_sent


Btw I told my SO about my concerns and he looked hurt, it makes me wonder if he already bought it He does not know as much about stones as I do and you guys definitely know more than me.

How should I handle this if he bought it and is keeping it secret?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Thank you everyone for the fantastic advice!

I admit I tried to see if I could buy an idealscope on Amazon and overnight it

The Gavin Diamonds suggestion looks really nice! Thank you for showing it to me.

I found this one on excel diamonds from the original suggestion, it's EGL HK but has a hearts and arrows pic on the cert....

http://www.exceldiamonds.com/Diamon...lor-VS1-Clarity-429030.html?action=email_sent


Btw I told my SO about my concerns and he looked hurt, it makes me wonder if he already bought it He does not know as much about stones as I do and you guys definitely know more than me.

How should I handle this if he bought it and is keeping it secret?

That is not a pic of the actual hearts and arrows, plus you can't buy a correctly graded 1.12ct G VS1 for $5000.

 

[Gypsy]

EGL is not good.

You can't get a GIA G VS in Hong Kong for that price.

Personally, I'd ask him point blank if he bought it, and if he did... then I'd ask him if he has a return policy.

That said, I am direct American, so my way of handling things is very to the point and may not be right for you and your relationship.

 

[lollipop282]

EGL is not good.

You can't get a GIA G VS in Hong Kong for that price.

Personally, I'd ask him point blank if he bought it, and if he did... then I'd ask him if he has a return policy.

That said, I am direct American, so my way of handling things is very to the point and may not be right for you and your relationship.

I am that way too Gypsy.

Also I now have confirmation that he did in fact buy it. According to him the store said they would only give him credit even though he had never once taken possession of the stone. Is that typical? That sounds ridiculous to me..,

 

[Dancing Fire]

Lollipop...Are you guys in HK?

 

[lollipop282]

No we're in TX. The link was the first one provided to me in this thread and I plugged that stones stats in the HCA calc and got a good result.

 

[Gypsy]

Oh boy.

Where did he buy it from?

And yes, that is ridiculous. But then again... that's why we tell people to be careful and research the things they buy.

 

[Gypsy]

Did he pay cash? Or did he have the presence of mind to use a credit card? If he used a credit card, refuse the shipment, have it sent back to them, reverse the charge through the CC'd company.

 

[lollipop282]

Credit card and there was shipment necessary as it was a local (as in locally owned and operated) store. I wrote the SA directly and told her:

"My question is after viewing the diamond tomorrow what is your return policy if I decide it's not for me? I want to like it, especially after finding out he bought it that day but he seems stressed about not getting his money back if I decide it's not for me.

I don't feel this should be an issue, especially since he has yet to take possession of it or receive a receipt, not to mention the fact that most stores have a return policy, so I wanted to clarify for him."

To which she replied:

"We'd be glad to take the diamond back if you determine it's not for you. With the paperwork it has now, it's worth more to us than it was last week. I hope it ends up being the one too, but in the end, it's your call and nobody from my end will pressure you one way or the other. If we need to find another we certainly will!"

I asked her to clarify if this means my SO would get a refund.

This place has been in business for 83 years and has a great reputation so I can't imagine there being no return policy.

 

[teobdl]

Sound like good people. Hope he can get money back!

 

[SirGuy]

Sorry to hear that he already committed to a purchase, but that's promising news about a possible refund. Let us know how it goes with the further selection! I'm a guy and like the idea of a surprise ring, but only if the fellow has really done his homework. Unfortunately, most do not. "Jewelry" is a bad word to some men, even if the study is necessary for getting a great engagement ring.

 

[Gypsy]

Sounds great!

So my thought is... if they play fairly with you. Return it (don't exchange), BUT maybe you can give them parameters that will guarantee that the stone is a good one and continue to work with them.

 

[lollipop282]

Sounds great!

So my thought is... if they play fairly with you. Return it (don't exchange), BUT maybe you can give them parameters that will guarantee that the stone is a good one and continue to work with them.

This is what I'm going to try to do. I have the HCA calc, quotes for the best round parameters and another diamond dimension grader I found online.

Since they have now said they'd give me a refund if possible I'd like to give them my business. I know I'm getting my bridal mounting from them later (simon g mr1850)